I get sick

[karl]

British National Health Care exceptionally bad at taking care of cancer patients.

In 2000, the Labour government boldly promised to make British cancer care the envy of Europe by boosting funding, hiring new managers, and drafting targets. While five-year survival rates have modestly improved, British rates trail those of every Western European nation, and are on a par with the results of former Communist countries.

Dr. Karol Sikora, dean of the University of Buckingham’s medical school and the former chief of the WHO’s cancer program, doesn’t mince his words. “We now spend more per person on cancer than any other European country,” he explains. “However, we don’t seem to get value for money.” Dr. Sikora notes that the National Health Service is bested by Western European countries on a variety of measures. “We have funded managers to deal with targets while in France, Germany, and Italy that bureaucracy does not exist.”

British cancer looks even worse when compared to U.S. care. The average five-year survival rate for cancer in men, for example, is 45 percent in England (slightly higher in Wales, lower in Scotland) but 66 percent in the United States. Some will argue that this may be due to cultural factors—perhaps the stereotypical Brit, eager for a pint but unsettled at the prospect of a trip to his physician, naturally fares worse. Studies suggest, however, that Britons see their doctors about as often as Americans, spend more days in the hospital, and—on the whole—are healthier (with less obesity, less smoking, and so forth).

A more plausible explanation is that British patients, as opposed to their American counterparts, have challenges with access to the care they need. For one thing, they wait much longer to see specialists. One cancer patient whose story was described in the British press had his specialist appointment cancelled forty-eight times, delaying specialist access by more than a year. Such delays affect outcomes: a Clinical Oncology study of British lung cancer treatment found in 2000 that 20 percent “of potentially curable patients became incurable on the waiting list.” Novel drugs offered here often aren’t available there. Avastin, a new pharmaceutical for advanced colon cancer, is prescribed ten times more often in the United States than in the United Kingdom. Screening standards are different. In the United States, internists recommend that men fifty and older get screened for colon cancer; in the British National Health Service, screening begins at seventy-five.

British newspapers are filled with stories of low standards: unwashed patients, super-infections, long waiting lists. Dental care is so difficult to get that some patients extract their own teeth.

That isn’t quite the picture of British health care Americans are usually presented with. Michael Moore waxes poetic on the British system in Sicko, showing satisfied patients and happy, chic docs. Paul Krugman claims in the New York Times that “there’s very little evidence that Americans get better health care than the British.” And while the reality of U.K. cancer care is nothing to be celebrated, the idea still wins supporters. In 2008, for example, the American College of Physicians, the nation’s second largest doctor association, endorsed a single-payer health care system.

Government-run health care systems control costs by rationing care. In contrast, for all its flaws, the American health care system does not hesitate to spend, eager to embrace new technologies and treatments. And that’s why Americans do so much better.

--------------

From a "New Atlantis" article entitled "Socialism and Cancer." Entire article here"http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/socialism-and-cancer

[GreatLakesGramma]

That's how bureaucracy always works.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: LynnDel

It's a wonder anyone wants to move to a terrible place where people have to pay for their own healthcare (yes, prices here are way beyond what they should be), get shot in the streets, are more likely to die being born or be killed in an auto wreck than other countries of the world, but they do. Wonder why?

People are literally DYING to come here from socialist "paradises" like Mexico and Cuba.

This is why I encourage those who are lobbying for more socialism in this country to just move to Cuba or Mexico.

Why try to ruin freedom in this country when you can move and have what you want right now?

I don't know if they still will, but at one time they offered to put immigrants through medical school for free in Cuba.

“Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the straps of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke?

Is it not to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?" Isa 58:6-7 ESV.

The Lord would place a check upon the inordinate love of property and power. Great evils would result from the continued accumulation of wealth by one class, and the poverty and degradation of another. Without some restraint the power of the wealthy would become a monopoly, and the poor, though in every respect fully as worthy in God's sight, would be regarded and treated as inferior to their more prosperous brethren. The sense of this oppression would arouse the passions of the poorer class. There would be a feeling of despair and desperation which would tend to demoralize society and open the door to crimes of every description. The regulations that God established were designed to promote social equality. The provisions of the sabbatical year and the jubilee would, in a great measure, set right that which during the interval had gone wrong in the social and political economy of the nation. {PP 534.3}

These regulations were designed to bless the rich no less than the poor. They would restrain avarice and a disposition for self-exaltation, and would cultivate a noble spirit of benevolence; and by fostering good will and confidence between all classes, they would promote social order, the stability of government. We are all woven together in the great web of humanity,

535

and whatever we can do to benefit and uplift others will reflect in blessing upon ourselves. The law of mutual dependence runs through all classes of society. The poor are not more dependent upon the rich than are the rich upon the poor. While the one class ask a share in the blessings which God has bestowed upon their wealthier neighbors, the other need the faithful service, the strength of brain and bone and muscle, that are the capital of the poor. {PP 534.4}

Make Condition of Unfortunate Brother Our Own.--When a man is struggling with honest endeavor to sustain himself and his family, and yet is unable to do this, so that they suffer for necessary food and clothing, the Lord will not pronounce our ministering brethren guiltless if they look on with indifference or prescribe conditions for this brother which are virtually impossible of fulfillment . . . We are to make the condition of the unfortunate brother our own. {WM 210.1}

Any neglect on the part of those who claim to be followers of Christ, a failure to relieve the necessities of a brother or a sister who is bearing the yoke of poverty and oppression, is registered in the books of heaven as shown to Christ in the person of His saints. What a reckoning the Lord will have with many, very many, who present the words of Christ to others but fail to manifest tender sympathy and regard for a brother in the faith who is less fortunate and successful than themselves. . . . {WM 210.2}

White, E. G. (1952; 2002). Welfare Ministry (210). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[karl]

I agree wholeheartedly with what EGW says above, Gerry. But what is your point in putting it at this point in the discussion about free market vs socialistic systems of health care?

Capitalism obviously offers more to the poor than socialism does, because poor people don't want to live in socialist countries. They want to live here. Does the US have more emigration or immigration, Gerry? Think about that when people are promoting the idea that we should be like the other countries.

It is absolutely hilarious to read the World Health Organization grading of various countries in terms of health care. They put Cuba at the TOP!!!! Up until last summer I had Cuban refugees living in my home for several months. I asked them about the stellar health care in Cuba. They said, "WHAT???" We can't even get aspirin or tylenol most of the time. Prescription drugs? Forget it. Sure we can see the doctor, but he can't do anything for us.

They ARE a wonderfully healthy people, though, without any health care. No doubt some very good genes there.

Also, I think less may actually be more when it comes to food and health, and they often go hungry. They were all skinny as rails when they got here. Prosperity can have its downsides, and fullness of bread is not something we are lacking in the US. Maybe we should go socialist so we can all thin down.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Gerry, we are talking about a government, consisting of corrupt human beings, mostly making no profession of Christianity, undertaking to do those things by force of law. It never works that way. Instead of those under the yoke of poverty and oppression being lifted up, it presses down everyone else, EXCEPT for those who are in control. Without a submission to God's controlling power, they will invariably take advantage of the system to enrich themselves and oppress those below them. It's a system that professes to do what the Bible says, but instead does just the opposite.

[doug yowell]

As a late comer, is there any poor person in this country (legal or illegal) who does not already have access to FREE health care,food,job training,housing subsidies,ect...? Is there anyone who has NOTHING who can be legally refused medical care? Isn't the American taxpayer already supporting "Social Justice Gone Wild"? How much will ever be enough?

[Gerr]

Why are there so many homeless people if they have subsidies for housing?

Perhaps do an experiment. Send someone you know to an ophthalmologist, one who has cataracts that need surgery but has no insurance or is unable to pay cash and see if they would even let him/her in the office. Or someone who needs a bypass surgery, or cancer treatment.

[karl]

Am seeing some typical comments when a discussion is really political rather that about health care issues.

This topic should be moved to a political forum unless persons really want to talk about health care. We have a good system, not without faults and could be made better. But as long as it is profit driven, changes are going to be difficult. In the cancer clinics that I work for a very, very small amount of charity work is done. No insurance, no treatments unless you agree to a payment plan and don't fail that or.....! Treatment is a very expensive business, you must have insurance of some type, MCR, MCD or private.

The discussion, started by Neil, not me, has been about us lousy conservatives blocking the socialist payment mechanisms being bandied about on Capitol Hill

The socialist countries have significantly worse cancer treatment outcomes than the US. Check it out here: http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/socialism-and-cancer

The world's cancer treatment choices appear to be: Expensive care vs poor care.

The patients that your clinic doctors refuse to treat - what do they do? Are there alternatives? If there are alternatives, even if it requires work to access them, these are better than no alternative at all or a delay in care that renders the cancer untreatable such as happens in socialist countries.

[doug yowell]

Why are there so many homeless people if they have subsidies for housing?

Perhaps do an experiment. Send someone you know to an ophthalmologist, one who has cataracts that need surgery but has no insurance or is unable to pay cash and see if they would even let him/her in the office. Or someone who needs a bypass surgery, or cancer treatment.

Oh, you mean perfect health? Hows this for an experiment: Three and a half weeks ago one of my co-workers had a heart attack. He had no insurance, no car, no money, no nothing. He went to the ER and spent 6 days in the hospital. He has filed for disability, job training, food stamps,and every other kind of gov. aid available to help him until he can get back on his feet again. Who paid for that? My sister-in-law went thru the same thing 3 months previous. Who's paying for that? Another of my close relatives, whose husband left her when she got pregnant, gets WIC, and other governmental benefits while she's going to school to try to prepare for a productive future apart from government subsudies. Who's paying for that? The medical world here in Calif. is innundated with millions of illegals who receive free medical help upon request at any ER they go to. Entire medical institutions have had to shut down because of the lack of funds to cover the costs of providing so many freebies. Who's paying for that? Adventists are supposed to be proclaiming a "health message" that would be an effective preventative policy for millions and would involve less burden on the average American taxpayer. So why is it the moral obligation for the struggling middle class to fund a utopian health care system for the world? Why are there so many homeless people? Because someone else isn't giving them a free place to live?? Talk to some of the homeless (I have) and the majority of them CHOOSE to be homeless. Many have mental problems. The Bible mandates guidelines for assisting the poor and they include help for those who cannot help themselves and nada for those who won't.Government policies have no safeguards to insure (no pun intended) those principles. So now we're being asked to add millions of additional receipiants and expand the quantity and quality of their coverage because it's our moral duty?

[GreatLakesGramma]

Am seeing some typical comments when a discussion is really political rather that about health care issues.

This topic has been political from the start. It was never about health care per se.

[karl]

Perhaps do an experiment. Send someone you know to an ophthalmologist, one who has cataracts that need surgery but has no insurance or is unable to pay cash and see if they would even let him/her in the office. Or someone who needs a bypass surgery, or cancer treatment.

Send someone you know who needs a house, but doesn't qualify for a loan, to the bank. Since the democrats have been busy liberalizing loan guarantees, we will work out a way for these people to get a house, even though they shouldn't have one, and in the process nearly destroy the world's economy.

Explain to me how being irresponsible in the financing of houses will have any different effect than being irresponsible in the financing of health care? The demand will skyrocket and prices will soar.

I know liberals hate to think about these things, but there is a huge price tag attached to this. WHO do you think is going to pay it??? You're not planning to pay for it personally are you? So,....WHO? You've gotta get it from somebody. Shall we all get our guns and go door to door in Beverly Hills? Think we can raise 2.3 trillion?

Houses and health care are both products of significant segments of the work force in this country. People should pay for what they get and not expect to get what they don't pay for. Other people should not be expected to guarantee or pay for what you get and you should not be expected to guarantee or pay for what they get.

If you want to voluntarily pay for others' health care, I'm all for it. But if you want to force other people to pay for something they don't want, you'll have to explain to me how there is any Christianity in that.

[hch]

SO WHAT's the point?

The collapse of the world economy whether precipitated by the housing market or by the health care crisis is to be part of the Time Of Trouble (like the world has never seen before) spoken of by Daniel the Prophet.

Our government has poured billions into the system to grease the gears and keep the financial markets flowing. Even though it would have been cheaper and more efficient for the Bush and Obama White houses to bail out individual homeowners. But instead of helping the poor and the needy, the rich got richer at the expense of the poor.

Bottom line: when the billions get siphoned out of the system, the poor will still be poor and the rich will be panicked because they know that the system will freeze up again and there will not be any money left to throw at the problem.

Instead of getting sick at the thought of financial ruin, rejoice because your Salvation draweth NEAR. Or as James wrote: "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. My brethren...." (chapter 1:1-2) Was he really writing to 12-tribes or to Christian brothers? Then he said to them: "Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you" (5:1).

It stands to reason if the church is so wrapped up in the business of the world that the financial problems of the world take more of our brain power than the things of God, it should make us sick. Then maybe when the sick seek the Great Physician, there is hope that they may recover before it is eternally too late!

But if we fail to know the hour in which we live, we are apt to think that this is just another business cycle. Business as usual? Then the Master returns as a thief in the night and 5 of the 10 Virgins are lost! If only they had awakened in time to prepare, things could have been different for them.

After hearing Audio CD "The German Sunday Laws, the pope and the Obama Connection" I'm convinced that it is not business as usual. loudcry.2007@gmail.com

[teresaq]

great post hch, and right on target.

we are advised to pray that God holds the winds in check, havent seen any injunctions to do otherwise...

[Woody]

Obama has nearly destroyed the country in one year. Can you imagine what will happen if we are left with his health care bill? I will really be sick then.

[olger]

When I think of Obamacare:

[doug yowell]

Obama has nearly destroyed the country in one year. Can you imagine what will happen if we are left with his health care bill? I will really be sick then.

Woody, I think Cosmin still has some Pepto-Bismol left!!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Obama has nearly destroyed the country in one year. Can you imagine what will happen if we are left with his health care bill? I will really be sick then.

Woody, I think Cosmin still has some Pepto-Bismol left!!

Thank you. If Obama gets his way ... I'll need some. :)

[Woody]

When I think of Obamacare:

Yes og ... a lot of us will be sick.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

Am seeing some typical comments when a discussion is really political rather that about health care issues.

This topic has been political from the start. It was never about health care per se.

Now that you mention it ... you are right. It was all about bashing Republicans from the get go.

[Gerr]

Instead of getting sick at the thought of financial ruin, rejoice because your Salvation draweth NEAR. ...[/ quote]

That's what I'm banking on to keep us from becoming destitute with the stock market gone south.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Now that you mention it ... you are right. It was all about bashing Republicans from the get go.

If I bash anyone, it would be the Republicrats who have ruined our once great country.

[Woody]

Yes. Ever since Obama has come into office ... it has been destroyed. That is for sure. See what those sociocrats can do to a once powerful nation?

[Woody]

I like the same 'o same 'o I'm doing just fine.

I don't want Obamacare and end up with less for more.

Health care is very important to me. I simply can't afford to have decreased benefits.

Call it selfish if you like. But, it's self preservation.

[Neil D]

I like the same 'o same 'o I'm doing just fine.

I don't want Obamacare and end up with less for more.

Health care is very important to me. I simply can't afford to have decreased benefits.

Call it selfish if you like. But, it's self preservation.

"Same o Same o"? That's what you want, Redwood?

Currently, most of the Northeast is seeing a MINIMUM rise in payments to thier healthcare premiums of 23%. There is one state that will see a rise from one company of 75%. Most of the rises will be around 30-35%....

And Obama hasn't done anything to healthcare YET.....And it's still rising in cost....You can't have decrease benefits you say....and yet, it's coming....to get you because you can't see/allow anyone to change the current system....

But don't you worry, Redwood...You got your "Same o Same O".....

[Woody]

The cost of health care is clearly rising because of fears of what Obama is TRYING to do. They have to get ahead of the game. I worked in health care for nearly 20 years. I know how it works.