Peter, Feed My Sheep

[Dr. Shane]

After Peter denied Jesus and Jesus had risen from the dead, Peter went back to fishing. It seems to me that he had no direction in life. He didn't know what to do next. So he went back to doing what he had done before. But there was no going back. He, with some of the other disciples, spent the night out on the lake and didn't catch anything. Then the Lord came on the shore. Only with the Lord did they catch fish. While eating breakfast on the beach Jesus asked Peter, "lovest thou Me more than these?" The word "these" seems to be in reference to the the ships and fish. Jesus seemed to be asking Peter why Peter had returned to fishing instead of spreading the gospel. Thus His question is asking "Is your life going to be about following Me or doing your own thing?"

After telling Peter "Feed My sheep" Jesus says, "When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not." When Peter was young he did his own thing but when he was old he followed God and lived a life of surrender which led to him dying a martyr's death.

I believe the turning point in Peter's life wasn't when he denied Christ. Nor was it when Christ first appeared to the disciples after the resurrection. The turning point was during the breakfast on the beach. The light finally came on and he finally "got it".

[skyblue888]

Do you love me more than "these" had nothing to do with the fish per se but with the other disciples. Jesus was testing Peter. Was Peter again going to make his boastful claim that he loved Him more than all the other disciples or show that he had learned his lesson?

[Dr. Shane]

Ellen White, in the Desire of Ages, takes the position that the word "these" referred to the other disciples. Arther Maxwell, in The Bible Story, takes the other position.

Quote:

"Simon," He said, pointing to the boat, the net, and the fish that were left, "do you love Me more than these?"

That was a hard question for a fisherman...

Arther Maxwell's understanding fits the story much better. Ellen White's take has Jesus throwing the past into Peter's face. After Peter had denied Jesus, he wept bitterly and was in bad need of forgiveness, I find it hard to believe Jesus was doing an I-told-you-so to Peter.

Peter had given up on himself. He was leaving the service of the Lord to return to fishing. Jesus was extending forgiveness to him and calling him back to His service. The lesson there is profound. Sometimes when we fall into sin we feel so bad that we think God can no longer use us in His work - - - or that He no longer wants us in His work. However Christ did not let Peter return to fishing even after Peter had denied Him. Christ called him back - THREE TIMES. It hurt Peter that Christ repeated Himself three times but in actuality it showed that for each time Peter had denied Christ, Christ called Peter back to His divine service. The message is clear. Don't think I have given up on you. Don't think you can't come back to Me. Every time you sin against Me, I will call you to come back.

[teresaq]

i dont think you have recently reviewed what the desire of ages says, shane...

Again Jesus applied the test to Peter, repeating His former words: "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou Me?" This time He did not ask Peter whether he loved Him better than did his brethren. The second response was like the first, free from extravagant assurance: "Yea, Lord; Thou knowest that I love Thee." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep." Once more the Saviour put the trying question: "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou Me?" Peter was grieved; he thought that Jesus doubted his love. He knew that his Lord had cause to distrust him, and with an aching heart he answered, "Lord, Thou knowest all things; Thou knowest that I love Thee." Again Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep." {DA 812.1}

Three times Peter had openly denied his Lord, and three times Jesus drew from him the assurance of his love and loyalty, pressing home that pointed question, like a barbed arrow to his wounded heart. Before the assembled disciples Jesus revealed the depth of Peter's repentance, and showed how thoroughly humbled was the once boasting disciple. {DA 812.2}

Peter was naturally forward and impulsive, and Satan had taken advantage of these characteristics to overthrow him. Just before the fall of Peter, Jesus had said to him, "Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Luke 22:31, 32. That time had now come, and the transformation in Peter was evident. The close, testing questions of the Lord had not called out one forward, self-sufficient reply; and because of his humiliation and repentance, Peter was better prepared than ever before to act as shepherd to the flock. {DA 812.3}

The first work that Christ entrusted to Peter on restoring him to the ministry was to feed the lambs. This was a work in which Peter had little experience. It would require great care and tenderness, much patience and perseverance. It called him to minister to those who were young in the faith, to teach the ignorant, to open the Scriptures to them, and to educate them for usefulness in Christ's service. Heretofore Peter had not been fitted to do this, or even to understand its importance. But this was the work which Jesus now called upon him to do. For this work his own experience of suffering and repentance had prepared him. {DA 812.4}

[Dr. Shane]

I am very familiar with that passage. I respectfully disagree with Sister White's interpretation of what took place there. I agree with Arther Maxwell's understanding. The Desire of Ages' version has Jesus as being in-your-face to Peter when Peter was hurting, doubting himself and desperately in need of forgiveness. The Desire of Ages has Jesus humiliating Peter in front of the other disciples.

Arther Maxwell's take has Jesus more saying, "Peter, what are you doing?" Jesus didn't want Peter to go back to fishing. That was not God's plan for Peter. Thus the question, "Do you love Me more than these boats, nets and fish?" When Peter answers yes Jesus says "feed My sheep." Leave the ships and the fish behind and feed My sheep. Jesus was making it clear that Peter was not "out of the club" because he had denied Him. Jesus still wanted him. Jesus still loved him. And Jesus was still calling Peter to His service.

That understanding of the story has a profound application to us today. Jesus calls us to serve Him. When we fall, He continues to call us. We should not get discouraged and stop working for Him because we have fallen short.

[Guest]

Was Arthur Maxwell ever taken to heaven in vision, and shown around?

[Dr. Shane]

Just because Ellen White received divine visions and dreams doesn't mean she wasn't mistaken about some things. She also misquoted a verse about Christ cleansing the temple. He did it twice and she got the two mixed up when quoting the Bible. She was not infallible. Arther Maxwell's "The Bible Story" has been published and sold by the Adventist church for many, many years. I am sure I am not the first one that has discovered this conflict.

One need only look at the context of the story to see that Maxwell's version makes more sense. If one forgets Ellen White wrote the Desire of Ages and just compared the two versions with the Bible, I think Maxwell's makes more sense. It fits the story line better. Ellen White has Jesus coming out to the sea and kicking Peter when he is already down. Maxwell has Jesus assuring Peter that he is forgiven and calling him back to His service.

[Guest]

Ellen White was shown what actually happened. Maxwell was good at telling stories. Why would I want to forget that she wrote Desire of Ages?

[John317]

...She also misquoted a verse about Christ cleansing the temple. He did it twice and she got the two mixed up when quoting the Bible.

What book or article was that? In Desire of Ages, chapter 16 is about the first cleansing of the temple, based on John 2: 12-22; and chapter 65 is about the second cleansing, and is based on the passages of Scripture describing that event, Matt. 21: 13ff; Mark 11: 17; and Luke 19: 46.

Is it possible that you're referring to Mrs. White's use of the quote of John 2: 16 (regarding the first cleansing) in the chapter that deals with the second cleansing (p. 591)?

If so, it seems entirely reasonable that Jesus said those words, "Take these things hence," or something very similar, during both events.

It's interesting to note that she actually quoted it twice, once in chapter 16 and again in chapter 65. Knowing the care with which she wrote and the help she received from her assistents, I think we can be fairly sure that her quote of John 2: 16 is not an oversight or error but something she did deliberately.

All that being said, though-- I'm only assuming it's the verse you refer to, but you may be talking about something else.

[Dr. Shane]

Ellen White was shown what actually happened.

I think that is an assumption. Did she write someplace that she was shown the events of chapter 85 in Desire of Ages?

[Dr. Shane]

If so, it seems entirely reasonable that Jesus said those words, "Take these things hence," or something very similar, during both events.

I will have to read the chapters again. It has been sometime since I studied that conflict. I am off to do some missionary work now.

The point is that Ellen White was not Jesus Christ. Not every word that came out of her mouth was inspired. Her writings are not equal to the Bible and we are not to use her writings as a means to understand the Bible. When we do that we make ourselves no better than Catholics who use priests to explain the Bible to them.

Ellen White was not alone in her interpretation. Other great theologians have had the understanding of that passage. Thus we have no reason to believe that she was not influenced by them. Unless she specifically says that God gave her that understanding while in vision, I see no reason to assume that to be the case.

I like the Jesus that Arther Maxwell describes much more than the in-your-face, ha-ha-na-na Jesus that Ellen White presents.

[Tom Wetmore]

Ellen White was shown what actually happened. Maxwell was good at telling stories. Why would I want to forget that she wrote Desire of Ages?

Even assuming Maxwell also was given the very same vision as given to EGW, the two could have very well recounted and interpreted what they witnessed differently. Visions are not detailed data dumps of information. And the one having the vision does not write as if they are a mindless conduit recording the script and details and spitting them all out. The vision is still processed and recalled through a flawed human brain subject to its limitations and inherent biases and previously acquired info on the same or similar subjects. Show ten different people the same photo or video of some event involving multiple people, objects and actions and have them write down everything they saw and heard and you will have ten different accounts that will differ significantly on the details and the interpretation of what they witnessed. It is not likely that different for someone recalling a vision.

Based on what EGW herself said that her visions were like, I seriously doubt that EGW even saw most of the details she wrote about. She relied on Scripture and other sources and the visions. And dare I say, she was blessed with a wonderful imagination and gift for writing capable of weaving all those bits of info into a very detailed narrative and commentary.

[teresaq]

I am very familiar with that passage. I respectfully disagree with Sister White's interpretation of what took place there. I agree with Arther Maxwell's understanding. The Desire of Ages' version has Jesus as being in-your-face to Peter when Peter was hurting, doubting himself and desperately in need of forgiveness. The Desire of Ages has Jesus humiliating Peter in front of the other disciples.

Arther Maxwell's take has Jesus more saying, "Peter, what are you doing?" Jesus didn't want Peter to go back to fishing. That was not God's plan for Peter. Thus the question, "Do you love Me more than these boats, nets and fish?" When Peter answers yes Jesus says "feed My sheep." Leave the ships and the fish behind and feed My sheep. Jesus was making it clear that Peter was not "out of the club" because he had denied Him. Jesus still wanted him. Jesus still loved him. And Jesus was still calling Peter to His service.

That understanding of the story has a profound application to us today. Jesus calls us to serve Him. When we fall, He continues to call us. We should not get discouraged and stop working for Him because we have fallen short.

hmmm, you have an interesting way of reading ellen white...oh well, if thats how you read that account from her.

strangely enough, i find maxwells account based on the writings of egw. guess he didnt read her the same as you do.

go figure.

[teresaq]

peter had, in essence, declared that he loved the Lord more than His brethren did when he stated,

Quote:

Luk 22:33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

Mat 26:33 Peter answered..., Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.

Mar 14:29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.

Joh 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

in response to,

Quote:

Mat 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night...

Luk 22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the [censored] shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Joh 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The [censored] shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

Quote:

Mar 14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the [censored] crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Mar 14:31 But he spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise. Likewise also said they all.

and who was the one who made such a show of rejecting Christ?

Quote:

Joh 18:27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the [censored] crew.

Mat 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the [censored] crew.

Mat 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the [censored] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Luk 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the [censored] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Luk 22:62 And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.

Mar 14:71 But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.

Mar 14:72 And the second time the [censored] crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the [censored] crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

so it would make sense to me that, yes, Jesus would be "in peters face" and for the reasons egw gives, that his brethren needed to see the full repentance of peter because they would have had doubts about his reliability after such a show-recorded in all 4 gospels.

but i dont understand why it would have been less humiliating to ask peter if he loved fish more than he loved Jesus,

or if peter loved Jesus more than his brethren loved Jesus.

nor is there any indication of that in the account given:

Quote:

Joh 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

Joh 21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

notice that peter never once said,

Mat 26:33 Peter answered..., Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.

Mar 14:29 But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.

in this response. he had seen himself and what he was capable of and all self-assurance was out the window.

[teresaq]

hey, your filter censored the bible. lol

[Dr. Shane]

Peter did not say, "Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended." the same day he was having breakfast on the beach with the Savior. Paul tells us that love does not keep track of harms done. The idea that Jesus was throwing that in Peter's face after Peter had wept bitterly seems to say that Jesus was keeping track of harms done. It just doesn't seem consistent wit the Ccharacter of Christ shown in other areas of the gospels.

[teresaq]

Peter did not say, "Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended." the same day he was having breakfast on the beach with the Savior.

who said he did?

[Dr. Shane]

Some theologians connect the breakfast on the beach to the statement made earlier by Peter as if he had just uttered the words and Christ was correcting him. Ellen White is among them.

One need only think about it a bit. When Peter said, "Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended." he was trying to assure Christ of his love and loyalty for Him. He wasn't saying he loved Christ more than the others. He used the word "though" which is to say "even if". And it was Peter that cut off the ear when Jesus was arrested.

If Jesus was asking Peter, "Do you love Me more than the other disciples?" what kind of question would that be? How would Peter know how much the other disciples loved Jesus? Jesus would be the only person able to answer such a question. However if Jesus was asking, "Do you love Me more than fishing on the sea?" that would be a question Peter could honestly answer.

We must also consider how Jesus responded to Peter's answer. Jesus said. "Feed My sheep." That answer makes sense if Jesus was asking Peter to choose between Him and fishing. That answer doesn't make a lot of sense if Jesus was asking about how much Peter loved Him in comparison to the other disciples.

Breakfast on the beach was a repeat calling. We find this in Luke 5:4-8 and Mark 1:16-18.

Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught. And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net. And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake. And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink. When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men. And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him.

After Peter denied Christ and after seeing Him resurrected Peter decided to return to fishing. In John 21:3 we read this:

Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.

Notice when first called by Christ Peter forsook the nets. Now after the Resurrection he says he is going fishing. He is returning to the life that he had originally forsaken. Not only that. He has no success. He catches nothing.

Then Jesus shows up and says, "Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes." This was a repeat miracle just as when Peter was first called.

Once on the beach Jesus says, "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou Me more than these?" The focus of the passage is Peter being called to forsake fishing a second time. The first time Peter was called he did not feel worthy and Jesus told him, "Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men." This time He says, "Feed my sheep." It is Jesus saying to Peter, nothing has changed. That has a powerful application for us when we fall into sin and feel discouraged.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Peter did not say, "Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended." the same day he was having breakfast on the beach with the Savior.

who said he did?

[Dr. Shane]

how do either of your two posts responding to me relate to the points i made?

I don't respond to other members so much as to ideas. I try to keep my focus on the topic and not other members. There are two ways to read John 21. That is what I am discussing. I am comparing and contrasting the two ways one can read the chapter. Ellen White read it one way. Arther Maxwell read it the other way. Maxwell's understanding makes more sense to me.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

how do either of your two posts responding to me relate to the points i made?

I don't respond to other members so much as to ideas. I try to keep my focus on the topic and not other members.