Is it always Gods fault?

[Twilight]

Many times you will hear people say:

"I could never serve a God that allowed this to happen (insert natural disaster/crime here)."

But I cannot think of one crime in mans existance that man is not himself responsible for.

I cannot find one natural disaster in mans history that man is not responsible for...

How about you?

Discuss. :-)

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

But I cannot think of one crime in mans existance that man is not himself responsible for.

I cannot find one natural disaster in mans history that man is not responsible for...

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Regarding the first one, Satan tempted man to fall. Certainly that's a crime for which Satan has responsibility.

Regarding the second, what do you mean? For example, the recent earthquake in Haiti. How is it you're seeing man is responsible for this?

How about the natural disasters that took place in Job? How was man responsible for those?

[Twilight]

Quote:

Regarding the second, what do you mean? For example, the recent earthquake in Haiti. How is it you're seeing man is responsible for this?

Consider this:

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Would Haiti have happened if Adam had obeyed this command?

Mark

[Musicman1228]

Right now God's hands are tied by Free Will. He must let evil complete it's course. Mankind has (through the ministry of Satan on this planet) achieved remarkable abilities in manipulating nature to cause destruction and havoc among the people of the world. It is possible that extraordinary weather patterns and earthquakes are a result of man made effort, under the guidance of Satan. Satan wants the people of the earth to acknowledge him as their ruler, thinking that if he can get the entire living population of the world to proclaim him their ruler that this will stop God from destroying him.

The Seven Trumpets are designed by God to prove beyond any doubt that these events are not man made. Satan will try to use these events to his advantage in getting the people of the earth to say that 'God is angry and we must appease him somehow." And that appeasement will be to bow down and worship the Beast and his image. It will be up to those of us that know better to tell the world that these events are indeed from the God of Creation and not from the ruler of this world. It will be up to us to tell them NOT to bow down before this 'angel of light that stands in the temple in Jerusalem claiming to be God", because he is not God.

We play right into Satan's evil hands when we say that these Seven Trumpets and the other ensuing events in Revelation have already occurred, because if they have occurred then we have nothing to fear for the future. Satan does not want anyone to be prepared for these events that HE KNOWS have not happened yet. He wants us asleep at the switch, caught off guard, surprised and unready for these events. This is why he has promoted the erroneous idea the we are not supposed to know the day and the hour of the return of Jesus Christ. If we did know then we would be ready, and if we are ready then we can't be fooled when he appears and claims to be God.

[pnattmbtc]

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Would Haiti have happened if Adam had obeyed this command?

That a second thing only happens when a first thing has happened does not prove that the first thing causes the second. This kind of thinking has led to many errors, of which spontaneous generation is a famous example.

Going back to the Haiti example, we can say that the Haiti earthquake wouldn't have happened had Adam and Eve not sinned, but we could also say that it wouldn't have happened has Satan not sinned or tempted man.

Anyway, if this is your point, that "I cannot find one natural disaster in mans history that man is not responsible for..." means "there wouldn't have been natural disasters had Adam not sinned," I don't see what there is to discuss.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Anyway, if this is your point, that "I cannot find one natural disaster in mans history that man is not responsible for..." means "there wouldn't have been natural disasters had Adam not sinned," I don't see what there is to discuss.

I think it is a very important point to consider.

And to share.

Many Christians are faced with this question day in and day out.

This question answers that question.

It enables one to reason with someone who is stating that God should do this or that.

I asked a non-believer this question in response to the usual question and it was met with silence.

When we realise that man is responsible for all the sin in the world, then we will not be so lacking in an answer when this is presented to us.

The world is like it is because of mans choices, not God's.

So therefore, unless each individual man has fully accepted the blame for his choices, then he has no right to question God.

So there is plenty here to discuss.

Maybe you meant nothing to argue about? :-)

Mark :-)

[pnattmbtc]

I certainly agree that God is not responsible, nor has He caused, any of the crimes or natural disasters which have occurred. In regards to discussing these things with non-believers, it seems to me the question of Satan would have to come into the picture (i.e., if you wish to explain what God is not responsible for the evil there is in the world).

[nuff sed]

I think that "The Flood" could be classed as a natural disaster.

I don't think that there is any question but that God was directly responsible for bringing it about. 'nuff sed

[skyblue888]

We should know who is responsible for all the disasters that have befallen the earth.

Speaking of Lucifer, the Lord says, "How are you fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How are you cut down to the ground, who did weaken the nations! For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into Heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High. Yet you shall be brought down to sheol, to the sides of the Pit. They that see you shall narrowly look upon you, and consider you, saying, Is this the man who made the earth to tremble, who did shake the kingdoms, who made the world like a wilderness, and destroyed its cities, who opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But you are cast out of your sepulcher like an abominable branch, and like the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the Pit; like a carcass trampled under feet. You shall not be joined with them in burial, because you have destroyed your land, and slain your people; the seed of evil doers shall never be renowned." Isaiah 14:12-20

Please compare "thrust through with a sword" with Ezekiel 28:7,8.

This prophecy of Isaiah matches that of Ezekiel 28. It is referring to events taking place after the 1,000 years when all the nations shall be raised for the "executive" judgment.

Now who is responsible for all the calamities that have befallen the earth ever since the fall?

"Satan works through the elements also to garner his harvest of unprepared souls. He has studied the secrets of the laboratories of nature, and he uses all his power to control the elements as far as God allows. When he was suffered to afflict Job, how quickly flocks and herds, servants, houses, children, were swept away, one trouble succeeding another as in a moment. It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them.

While appearing to the children of men as a great physician who can heal all their maladies, he will bring disease and disaster, until populous cities are reduced to ruin and desolation. Even now he is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away," "the haughty people . . . do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." Isaiah 24:4,5. G.C.589,590.

"The power and malice of Satan and his host might justly alarm us were it not that we may find shelter and deliverance in the superior power of our Redeemer. We carefully secure our houses with bolts and locks to protect our property and our lives from evil men; but we seldom think of the evil angels who are constantly seeking access to us, and against whose attacks we have, in our own strength, no method of defense. If permitted, they can distract our minds, disorder and torment our bodies, destroy our possessions and our lives. Their only delight is in misery and destruction. Fearful is the condition of those who resist the divine claims and yield to Satan's temptations, until God gives them up to the control of evil spirits. But those who follow Christ are ever safe under His watchcare. Angels that excel in strength are sent from heaven to protect them. The wicked one cannot break through the guard which God has stationed about His people." ibid,517.

sky

[Guest]

Now who is responsible for all the calamities that have befallen the earth ever since the fall?

Satan is ultimately, and he will pay for what he has done by burning longer than anyone else. I wouldn't want to be him.

[skyblue888]

Have you ever stopped to think about what it will be like for Satan to spend a thousand years without being able to tempt anyone, or to make anyone suffer, or to shed blood in any way, shape, or form? what sort of agony do you think will be his while he waits, idle, for a 1,000 years, roaming the devasted earth, contemplating the results of his rebellion and not being able to do anything anymore except to wait and wait and wait for the executive judgment? he has been so busy for the last 6,000 years that he has had no time whatsoever to think about any of this.

I could be wrong but I believe that at the end of the 1,000 years Satan and his angels will have lost much of their strength, physically, mentally, and spiritually. You know what happens when someone is not using his muscles. It may very well explained why he and his angels will have to fight with diminished strength when the terrible of the nations shall turn upon him, after the 1,000 years, with the fury of demons.

It is interesting to read these words, "Will you yet say before him who slays you, I am God? But you shall be a man, and not God, in the hand of him that slays you." Ezekiel 28:9.

"They that see you shall narrowly look upon you, saying, Is this the man who made the earth to tremble (earthquakes), who did skake the kingdoms, who made the world like a wilderness, and destroyed its cities, who opened not the house of his prisoners?" Isaiah 14:16,17.

Have you ever asked yourself why it is written that the nations shall look "narrowly" upon him? I believe that after having gone through 1,000 years of mental agony the like of which you and I cannot even begin to fathom, that these years will have taken a deadly toll upon him and his angels and for that reason the nations will be wondering if it is really him when they see him for the first time, if this being is really Lucifer for they had expected to meet with the mighty being that he once was!

I read a statement in the Testimonies in which Mrs. White stated that during the 1,000 years he will be stripped of his power. I don't know if she meant it only in the sense of being stripped of his power to tempt for he will have no one to tempt during that long period of time but may be it also means that 1,000 years of mental agony and suffering will have reduced him and his angels down to mere human strength!

What do you think?

sky

[Robert]

Satan is ultimately, and he will pay for what he has done by burning longer than anyone else.

Let's see, EGW states that some will suffer many days. So Satan more....Maybe a week of suffering?

This brings us right back to the justice issue. Do you believe God is a God of righteous justice, i.e., He does not show partiality? If so explain what you have failed to explain so far. Even John can't answer this one:

Again, Christ - as the son of man - suffered for the sins of every woman, man and child ever born into this world. The sins of the whole world were upon Him, yet we know that He only suffered for less than one day. Where's the justice in that?

[Twilight]

Quote:

it seems to me the question of Satan would have to come into the picture (i.e., if you wish to explain what God is not responsible for the evil there is in the world).

True, but then we would have to explain about God allowing His created beings to reject Him...

Mark :-)

[Woody]

Quote:

Right now God's hands are tied by Free Will.

With this I agree. And we now live in Satan's domain. He has pretty much free reign of Earth.