Dear Tea Party: This Is What America Stands For

[karl]

Health-care reform will not due away with co-pays and deductibles. No one should be led to believe that health-care reform is going to result in "free" health-care. That simply isn't so.

What do you think Medicaid is?

[WayneV]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Health-care reform will not due away with co-pays and deductibles. No one should be led to believe that health-care reform is going to result in "free" health-care. That simply isn't so.

What do you think Medicaid is?

Not free! It is simply "paid for" by people other than those that use it.

[Dr. Shane]

What is being proposed isn't Medicaid either.

[karl]

quote=Shane]

Health-care reform will not due away with co-pays and deductibles. No one should be led to believe that health-care reform is going to result in "free" health-care. That simply isn't so.

[lazarus]

More people will end up like the Medicaid recipients are now - unwilling to deal with even the common cold on their own and thus flooding our clinics and ERs with ridiculous complaints that responsible people just take Vitamin C and eat soup to deal with.

Interested to know the source of your opinion about Medicaid recipients i.e. what data/article/research did you use to form that opinion.

[there buster]

This is the way the world ends.

The Compassion Pharisees pass a law to force the rest of us to do what is good for us. Now it is health care. Eventually, they will decide that we're not worshiping on the correct day, and that this is why society is imperfect. So they will pass a law again forcing the rest of us to do what they have decided is the right thing, worship on the 'true' day. It will be easier, once they've acquired the habit, and it will all be done in the name of goodness and light. And, just like health care, many professed Christians will cheer it on.

[karl]

Interested to know the source of your opinion about Medicaid recipients i.e. what data/article/research did you use to form that opinion.

Anybody who works in a clinic or ER frequented by Medicaid patients does not need research to know what I am talking about, but, just for you:

Try this one: Of the patients who will use this clinic, 25 percent went to the emergency room 12 times or more in the course of one year, some as many as 25 times, and half of those visits were for a sore throat or headache, Santulli said. Entire article here: http://www.stargazette.com/article/20100...-national-model

Try this: Finding a way to provide nonurgent health care access to patients who inappropriately overuse the ER has become a national health care priority as ER costs per-visit are generally three times higher than comparable care in an outpatient clinic. Full article here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FSW/is_3_17/ai_n18608642/

Try this: GAO report: Millions in fraud, drug abuse clogs Medicaid

Entire article here: http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-09-29-Medicaid-drug-abuse-fraud-Michael-Jackson_N.htm

Medicaid, the joint federal-state health care program for the poor, is a largely unreformed welfare program. It is one of the largest of the government health programs, disposing of $338 billion in taxpayer money last year. Entire article here: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports...xpayers-Dollars

[lazarus]

Anybody who works in a clinic or ER frequented by Medicaid patients does not need research to know what I am talking about, but, just for you:

lol, you sound so knowledgeable!

Having worked as a chaplain for a level 1 trauma center in Washington DC I know just a little bit. Perhaps not as much as you though.

The first citation was interesting but the question is how many private patients go to the ER with similar non-urgent cases. Take a look:

http://www.letstalkhealthcare.org/health-care-costs/some-surprises-on-emergency-room-use/

The articles do not really say what you want them to say. The interesting thing is that they give good reasons why low income individuals, some of who are on Mediicaid, may use the ER more than others for non-urgent ailments. The second article gives some solutions too.

Of course there are shiftless irresponsible people but don't paint the majority of mediciad recipients like that.

You want to paint a picture that presents most Medicaid recipients as simply irresponsible. None of the articles you posted back this up.

This came from one of your articles. Can you guess which one?

Prior to establishing a clinic-hospital partnership in a low socioeconomic county in California, the hospital's ER patient mix was greater than 28% nonemergent and the ER sustained an annual loss of over $1 million providing nonemergency care to patients (Kelly, 1994). Since establishing a partnership with an outpatient clinic in which nonemergent patients are triaged to the clinic, the hospital ER patient mix is only 9% nonemergent and the partnership loss is just over $400,000. Additional benefits to the partnership include: a more manageable ER census, improved well-child care and patient education, and an emphasis on health prevention and promotion with a more comprehensive and accessible health care system (Kelly, 1994).

The final article you cited didn't even mention ER visits.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Anybody who works in a clinic or ER frequented by Medicaid patients does not need research to know what I am talking about, but, just for you:

lol, you sound so knowledgeable!

Take a look:

http://www.letstalkhealthcare.org/health-care-costs/some-surprises-on-emergency-room-use/

OK this is from the article:

About 20% of all ER visits by privately insured and Medicare patients were for non-urgent purposes. About 24% of all ER visits by Medicaid beneficiaries and people without any insurance were for non-urgent purposes.

Note that Medicaid are the highest abusers - which was my point. AND, please note that this is a skewed number because the ER doesn't get paid for an ER visit if they certify the condition as non-urgent, so they look for any excuse to call it urgent.

If you have connections in the ER business, just ask them, Laz. I'm not blowing smoke here.

[lazarus]

Note that Medicaid are the highest abusers - which was my point.

It was? You comment was more than that. It's ok if you want to roll back from the perjorative nature of your comments.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Note that Medicaid are the highest abusers - which was my point.

It was? You comment was more than that. It's ok if you want to roll back from the perjorative nature of your comments.

[karl]

This is the way the world ends.

The Compassion Pharisees pass a law to force the rest of us to do what is good for us. Now it is health care. Eventually, they will decide that we're not worshiping on the correct day, and that this is why society is imperfect. So they will pass a law again forcing the rest of us to do what they have decided is the right thing, worship on the 'true' day. It will be easier, once they've acquired the habit, and it will all be done in the name of goodness and light. And, just like health care, many professed Christians will cheer it on.

I'm bumping this one up.

[lazarus]

The issue is "abuse of health care when people don't have to pay for it." This is in the context of the massive new healthcare entitlement the libs are trying to foist upon America.

Foist upon America? There was a vote?

People abuse when they have to pay for it too! That was the point of the study that I cited.

The question is why? My point is that people do not abuse it simply because it's free. In the extract that I posted from a source you cited they made the point that abuse dropped when a clinic offered primary care services. People often turn up at the ER when they don't have access to primary care doctor. A solution that has been working is to provide more primary care services. This cuts down the amount of unnecessary ER visits.

It's rather simplistic to say that Medicaid patients are simply being irresponsible by turning up with a sore throat. Some are but they behave in a similar way to private patients but they are more likely to make un-necessary visits because they are more unlikely to have access to primary care.

Making blanket pejorative statements about those on medicaid is not helpful or even accurate.

Quote:

You seem to be contesting my assertion that this healthcare abuse happens.

Please an example of where I might have said or inferred that.

[lazarus]

Originally Posted By: there buster

This is the way the world ends.

The Compassion Pharisees pass a law to force the rest of us to do what is good for us. Now it is health care. Eventually, they will decide that we're not worshiping on the correct day, and that this is why society is imperfect. So they will pass a law again forcing the rest of us to do what they have decided is the right thing, worship on the 'true' day. It will be easier, once they've acquired the habit, and it will all be done in the name of goodness and light. And, just like health care, many professed Christians will cheer it on.

I'm bumping this one up.

Why? Universal health care leads to Sunday Law. Really? Please, remain serious. This is simply a sign that SDA Conservatives are getting desperate.

[Woody]

Obamacare is a sign of the end. I feel it in my bones. And them bones are usually right.

[bonnie]

Quote:

Foist upon America? There was a vote?

That vote was directly against the wishes of the american people.

Quote:

People abuse when they have to pay for it too! That was the point of the study that I cited.

People have a big tendency to devalue what is "free and readily available".

Quote:

The question is why? My point is that people do not abuse it simply because it's free. In the extract that I posted from a source you cited they made the point that abuse dropped when a clinic offered primary care services.

Primary care services are generally available where ER services are available.If you have a hospital in your community it is more common than not you have a medical clinic. Medical clinics may specialize in area's but most are primary care.

The larger cities are full of such clinics,the small rural towns usually have a least one.

Quote:

People often turn up at the ER when they don't have access to primary care doctor. A solution that has been working is to provide more primary care services. This cuts down the amount of unnecessary ER visits.

Our DR has a thriving practise as part of the medical clinic where we go. While you may believe more and more primary Dr's are going to appear because of Obama care,he doesn't share your opinion. He is highly concerned the day is fast approaching when medicare patients will be denied there.

He takes a hit on each medicare/medicaid patient now.

Quote:

It's rather simplistic to say that Medicaid patients are simply being irresponsible by turning up with a sore throat. Some are but they behave in a similar way to private patients but they are more likely to make un-necessary visits because they are more unlikely to have access to primary care.

Anyone on medicaid has access to primary care

[Dr. Shane]

Why? Universal health care leads to Sunday Law. Really? Please, remain serious. This is simply a sign that SDA Conservatives are getting desperate.

While I agree that it is quite a stretch to link universal health care to the national Sunday law, we have to recognize that pro-choice Adventists link banning abortion to the Sunday law. Both are signs of political desperation.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

Why? Universal health care leads to Sunday Law. Really? Please, remain serious. This is simply a sign that SDA Conservatives are getting desperate.

While I agree that it is quite a stretch to link universal health care to the national Sunday law, we have to recognize that pro-choice Adventists link banning abortion to the Sunday law. Both are signs of political desperation.

Incremently we will lose freedoms. Going from the liberties we have or had here to a National Sunday law is not going to happen overnight.The country wouldn't stand for it. But bit by bit the mind set will change

[Dr. Shane]

The National Sunday Law will come when Satan appears as an angel of light and deceives the world. It will not matter who the President is or who sits in the halls of Congress. Neither banning abortion nor providing universal health care has anything to do with the National Sunday Law which is the mark of the beast of Bible prophecy.

[bonnie]

The National Sunday Law will come when Satan appears as an angel of light and deceives the world. It will not matter who the President is or who sits in the halls of Congress. Neither banning abortion nor providing universal health care has anything to do with the National Sunday Law which is the mark of the beast of Bible prophecy.

There will be warning signs before Satan appears as an angel.

Given that I believe most of what you have to say is wrong your assurances are not that convincing.

The older I get the smarter I realize my dad was. He always stressed to us not to be concerned about the catholic or any other religious group,watch the SDA's.

They are the ones that will,"This means nothing","not yet" "the desire for more and more government" "it is good for you". Meanwhile that which will take your freedoms and persecute will be bit by bit placing the means carefully around the camp.

[karl]

]My point is that people do not abuse it simply because it's free. In the extract that I posted from a source you cited they made the point that abuse dropped when a clinic offered primary care services.

Go back and read it. laz. The abuse did not stop. The hospital managed to cut SOME of its losses by shifting the abuse out of the ER to a clinic.

It still lost $400,000 on the abuse.

I absolutely cannot believe you are contesting the idea that people will abuse free services.

Do people eat more at all-you-can-eat buffets in your part of the cosmos? They do here.

[there buster]

The impulse behind health care and a Sunday law are precisely the same: the belief that one can force another to do 'the right thing.'

Abortion legislation is not the same thing. It is an attempt to prevent violence by one person on another. Laws against theft or murder are not attempt to coerce righteous behavior, only an attempt to prevent evil behavior. Nor do they attempt to tell the citizen that government will provide for you.

Health care has been pushed as "doing the right thing." If it's OK to legislate it in one area, why not another?

Having already yielded the point, the conscience becomes accustomed to the violation.

It's like the famous Niemoller quote.

First they came for the communists, and I wasn't a communist, so I didn't say anything. . . .when they came for me, there was no one left to say anything.

First they coerced people into doing the right thing by providing health care. . . there are many more 'right things' people ought to do. Why stop with health care? Why not mandate charitable giving--through or regulated by the government.

Far from desperation, the link is direct and straightforward. And how will it ever get so far? Because people will be in denial. "Well, this isn't anything like a Sunday law, and it's worthwhile. . . ."

Once you start letting the state determine what's good for you to do, and legislating it, you have yields the main point. History is replete with examples.

Not seeing that is simply denial.

[karl]

The impulse behind health care and a Sunday law are precisely the same: the belief that one can force another to do 'the right thing.'

Thank you, there buster. There are so many people pushing socialism here on CA I begin to feel like the Lone Ranger.

Principles need to take precedence over expediency. Teach a man to fish rather than giving him money to buy fish.

[there buster]

Those who think they will be able to detect the "angel of light" without understanding the principles underlying his appeal will fall for him.

It is foolish pride to think that we are cleverer than the Devil. He counts on it.

Only when we understand that some things are wrong at their base, no matter how appealing the surface, will we have a chance at discerning an angel of light from the Light.

Besides, denial is self-deception. The devil doesn't need to deceive us if we do the job for him.

[there buster]

Quote:

There are so many people pushing socialism here on CA I begin to feel like the Lone Ranger.

They know not what spirit they are of.