Why I Believe Ellen White Was Inspired

[Robert]

She was a true prophet of God

Too much error to be a prophet....Inspired, yes...

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: ....could you please explain what truth the disciples didn't reveal? It would sure surprise me to see this!

The disciples didn't reveal how Jesus wanted His followers to build His body, the church. There were many aspects about His church that no one understood or knew, because it was a completely unique experience.

The book of Revelation tells us that just before Christ returns there would be a group of Christians who would have among them the manifestation of the gift of prophecy. So we can assume that Christ would communicate certain truths to those last-day people, who are identified as keeping the commandments of God, having the faith of Jesus, and holding fast to the testimony of Jesus, which is the Spirit of prophecy. It makes biblical sense to me that God would use a prophet at that point in history because it is shortly before the return of Christ in glory for His church. Just as God sent a prophet to prepare the way for Christ's first appearence, God could be expected to send a prophet to help prepare the way for Christ's second appearance.

Another reason for God's sending a prophet in the time just preceeding Christ return is that we can expect that Satan will at that time increase and intensify his deceptions in order to lead as many people as possible astray. Therefore it is highly likely that God would send a prophet to help keep His people on the right path.

I would think it's strange indeed if the Spirit whom Christ promised would come and bear witness to Him would be dumb almost 2,000 years since the time of John.

Quote:

Rich: Didn't Jesus say what you claimed before He died?

What do you have reference to?

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Didn't John write that Jesus did lots more stuff (and therefore said more stuff), but what good would it be for us to know?

The apostle John did say something similar to that, but not exactly what you say here. Are you talking about what John wrote in John 21: 25? He doesn't say anything about its not doing any good if we knew those things that Jesus did which are not written. I'm sure they are important words and acts, but no one could possibly write everything down.

I wouldn't refer to Jesus' words and acts as "stuff."

Quote:

Dr. Rich: Do you believe that the Holy Spirit failed to reveal all truth to the disciples?

The Holy Spirit didn't fail to do anything. He doubtless revealed exactly as much truth as He intended to reveal to God's people at that time. Does that mean the Spirit still has truths and Truth to reveal? Of course He does.The church does not know all truth yet.

Quote:

Dr. Rich: And no John, it is not obvious to me on when God wants to speak to His people because He has already done that and all one has to do to hear is read what He said.

Well, it seems obvious to me that we should let God decide when and if He wants to speak through a prophet.

[Musicman1228]

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Matt. 24:36-39.

This verse clearly states that the antideluvian world knew NOTHING of the flood that was coming upon them, until it happened. Therefore one must choose to believe either Jesus Christ or EGW, who said that Noah preached 120 years. If Noah did this then why would Jesus say that they were UNAWARE. Surly Noah was not that bad of a preacher that no one believed him. Simply if jesus Christ said no one knew that a flood was coming then no one knew it. You must choose whom you believe.

And yes, John317, I do acknowledge that EGW is a big part of the SDA church. But you must remember that she was not a founder of the church, she was adjunct. It was not until years later that she became so popular a figure that it became counter productive for anyone to challenge her in any way with respect to doctrine or theology. Those that did so were roundly castigated by her, and give short shrift by the brethren. Soon the church got out of the Bible study business and got into the 'what did EGW say about this' business. She became the infallible, inerrant source that in many ways supplanted the Scriptures, in a similar way to the Pope for the Catholics and Joseph Smith for the LDS.

To go against her today gives rise to comments such as "If you don't believe her you can't be a good SDA". This is similar to what Jesus Christ was up against vis a vis the Sanhedrin. Jesus spent His ministry skewering their sacred cows and pointing out their error. He was testifying to the Truth. This eventually made them mad enough (even knowing that He was the real Messiah) to want to murder Him. It is always the 'voice crying in the wilderness' that gets shot at. Those of us that have decided through diligent study and prayer to not hold to the testimony of EGW, but rather hold to the testimony of Jesus (Rev.12:17), that are now being castigated for acting in a similar manner.

This is an Adventist forum, yet there are those of us who are as Adventist as the next person that are looked upon as lesser beings because we choose to put the words and teachings of Jesus Christ above ALL others. And when we point out the clear discrepancies we are accused of fomenting decent within the church.

I do not poke fun or make snide comments about beliefs held by anyone on this forum even though the reverse is true. I accept everyone just where they are, and seek to point out only where I might differ from them and why. And because this is an Adventist forum from time to time this involves calling into question something that someone has posted that uses EGW (or Paul) as proof of a position. It is only at this point that I then point out that there might be another way of looking at this if we just take Jesus at His word. To suggest that EGW or Paul just may be in error is like lighting a match to a firecracker, given the explosive responses that I have received. But if others use EGW as proof and I disagree it is incumbent upon me to point out the difference. That is unless you no longer want my input and decide that you want me to leave the forum. If that is what you decide then I will abide by that decision. but then you would not be able to say that this is an open forum where there is an open exchange of ideas. It would then be identified as a closed forum, only suited for those of exactly the same mind set, and what fun would that be?

[karl]

The heading on my active topics read:

Re: Why I Believe Ellen White Was Inspired by Musicman1228

I thought, "No she wasn't."

[Guest]

I accept everyone just where they are,

[Guest]

musicman is

Now...

[Guest]

I will cite one vision that shows that future events were revealed to her that were unknown or believed impossible at the time. Ellen White had many, many visions of this nature. On December 20, 1860, South Carolina withdrew from the union. The north did not take seriously this move. On January 12, 1861, she was given a vision concerning

the Civil War that was to come in the United States and she related that vision to the congregation. She said to those present, “People are making light of the secession ordinance of South Carolina.”

Then she commented, among other things, that it would be a most terrible war, and men in that room would lose sons in that war. Because of the prevailing attitude in the north, several men in the audience sneered at her comments concerning the war.

History reveals the accuracy of her comments. The Civil War was one of the most devastating wars in terms of lives lost ever engaged in by the United States. There were at least ten men in the audience that day in Parkville, Michigan, that lost sons in the war, and among them were the very fathers who sneered when the vision was related.

[karl]

Here it is from the EGW estate:

JAN. 12, 1861, JUST THREE MONTHS TO A DAY BEFORE THE FIRST GUN WAS FIRED ON FORT SUMPTER, THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST MEETING-HOUSE IN PARKVILLE, MICH., WAS DEDICATED. AT THE CLOSE OF A DISCOURSE BY ELDER WHITE, SISTER WHITE GAVE A STIRRING EXHORTATION, AFTER WHICH SHE TOOK HER SEAT IN A CHAIR. IN THIS POSITION SHE WAS TAKEN OFF IN VISION. THE HOUSE WAS CROWDED WITH PEOPLE, AND IT WAS A MOST SOLEMN PLACE TO BE IN. AFTER COMING OUT OF THE VISION, SHE AROSE, AND LOOKING ABOUT THE HOUSE SHE SAID:-- {GCDB, January 31, 1893 par. 1}

"There is not a person in this house who has even dreamed of the trouble that is coming upon this land. People are making sport of the secession ordinance of South Carolina, but I have just been shown that a large number of States are going to join that State, and there will be a most terrible war. In this vision I have seen large armies of both sides gathered on the field of battle. I heard the booming of the cannon, and saw the dead and dying on every hand. Then I saw them rushing up engaged in hand-to-hand fighting [bayoneting one another]. Then I saw the field after the battle, all covered with the dead and dying. Then I was carried to prison, and saw the suffering of those in want, who were wasting away. Then I was taken to the homes of those who had lost husbands, sons, or brothers in the war. I saw there distress and anguish." {GCDB, January 31, 1893 par. 2}

Then looking slowly around the house she said:-- {GCDB, January 31, 1893 par. 3}

"There are those in this house who will lose sons in that war." {GCDB, January 31, 1893 par. 4}

[Musicman1228]

musicman is

Now...

The topic is Ellen White. What I wrote was right on target. I you can say why you believe in her then I can say why I don't. Fair is fair.

[Dr. Rich]

As to EGW being inspired? Well duh? of course she was inspired. That's not even a good question. By whom is the question.

Was it possible that Satan might have known what was going to happen in the civil war? Ya think??? (For a clue, do a study on who financed it)

[John317]

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Matt. 24:36-39.

This verse clearly states that the antideluvian world knew NOTHING of the flood that was coming upon them, until it happened. Therefore one must choose to believe either Jesus Christ or EGW, who said that Noah preached 120 years. If Noah did this then why would Jesus say that they were UNAWARE. Surly Noah was not that bad of a preacher that no one believed him. Simply if jesus Christ said no one knew that a flood was coming then no one knew it. You must choose whom you believe.

There's a simple explanation here. When it says the people didn't know of the coming flood, it means that they didn't believe it would come. You don't "know" what you don't believe. It is not denying that many of them were warned. They didn't believe the warning and therefore they didn't "know" of it until it happened.

It is the same way with people who are warned that Christ is going to return and that there is a judgment in process. If Jesus were to return tomorrow, many people who have been told would be as unprepared as the antedeluvians, not because they weren't told, but because they rejected the warning. Notice it says they didn't "know" the flood was coming. Why didn't they know it was coming? Because they refused believe Noah. It doesn't say they weren't told of it.

This has been explained on the Forum a number of times before.

Many non-SDA Christian Bible scholars and students believe Noah was a preacher of righteousness and warned the people of the coming Flood. One need not believe in Ellen White to understand this. It agrees with the Bible unless a person decides to reject the Bible, or if they choose to reject a very large part of the New Testament. See 2 Peter 2: 5; Heb. 11: 7 and 1 Peter 3: 20.

[John317]

Quote:

John317 wrote: "This is a Seventh-day Adventist Forum. Please follow the agreement that we came to a long time ago. I posted instructions about this about a year ago."

Quote:

DR. Rich: Sorry John317, I didn't know that the SDA General Conference was behind or sponsored this forum.

As I'm sure you realize, I'm not suggesting this is a forum connected to the GC. It's an Adventist club or forum.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich:

Was it possible that Satan might have known what was going to happen in the civil war?

God knows also, and He knows much better & sees a whole lot farther into the future than Satan does.

[Musicman1228]

John317 said, "There's a simple explanation here. When it says the people didn't know of the coming flood, it means that they didn't believe it would come. You don't "know" what you don't believe. It is not denying that many of them were warned. They didn't believe the warning and therefore they didn't "know" of it until it happened."

You are stretching the point and coming dangerously close to saying that Jesus didn't mean what He said. I urge you not to put your own spin on His words. Check the Greek and you will find that according to Jesus the literal meaning was that the people before the flood had NO KNOWLEDGE it was coming. If Noah was a 'preacher of righteousness' then why were there NO righteous people on earth at the time of the flood other than Noah, and why did God say that He was going to bring judgement on the people of the earth because of their total wickedness. There is NO redemption in this judgement, there is only punishment. The people of earth at that time were completely wicked continually. God would have been wasting His time trying to change the minds and hearts of these people when they were 100% totally given over to evil. Satan had indeed brought the nations of the earth low.

There is an old expression that has become one of my favorites that describes this situation to a T. It goes like this: It doesn't do any good to try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

The only person on earth that was righteous at the time of the flood was Noah; not even his wife, his sons and their wives were righteous. But for Noah's sake God saved his family and attempted to begin again the process of bringing righteousness to the people of earth, even when there were only eight in total.

This shows God's commitment in His desire to eradicate sin from this world, hence the universe. In the coming judgements (the Great Tribulation) there will be Seven Trumpets that announce that the time for deciding is RIGHT NOW. Later, there will be Seven Bowls of Wrath that God will pour out on the wicked that are left alive. These are they that persecuted the righteous during the Great Tribulation. These Bowls are not redemptive, they are punitive.

[Dr. Rich]

John, a simple "yes" would have been fine. And I know that this is the "Adventist forum" aka Adventist Club, but you wrote that this was a "Seventh-day Adventist Forum", (in capitals) which I took that the GC must have then been behind the blog. Which is it? A person can be an Adventist without being a card carrying member of the SDA Church--right?

[aldona]

Can you answer one simple question--please? Why did/does God need a prophet other than the disciples that He had? Or--why does anyone need a prophet other than the words of Jesus? Hmmm?

Or why do we need human prophets at all now that Jesus has sent us the Comforter (Holy Spirit) to lead us into all truth?

aldona

[aldona]

Quote:

The only person on earth that was righteous at the time of the flood was Noah; not even his wife, his sons and their wives were righteous.

That's a new one. I've never heard this teaching before.

My understanding was that because the other seven family members believed God's warning through Noah and entered the ark, they were counted as righteous.

aldona

[Guest]

It is God, not man, who decides when to send a prophet.

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

2Chron 20:20 Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.

[Dr. Rich]

Gen 6:8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord..

Gen. 6:9 ...Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time...

Gen 6:12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for ALL the people on earth had corrupted their ways.

Gen. 6:13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to ALL [of the] people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them.

Gen. 6:18 ...I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark--you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you.

Gen. 6:22 Noah did EVERYTHING just as God Commanded Him. (God did NOT command him to preach to anyone--did He?)

Gen 7:5 And Noah did ALL that the Lord commanded him.

I don't see where God commanded Noah to preach and I don't see where God said that anyone other than Noah was righteous.

[skyblue888]

"Amid the prevailing corruption, Methuselah, Noah, and many others labored to keep alive the knowledge of the true God and to stay the tide of moral evil." P.P.92.

[Musicman1228]

"Amid the prevailing corruption, Methuselah, Noah, and many others labored to keep alive the knowledge of the true God and to stay the tide of moral evil." P.P.92.

The destruction of the earth by flood was a punishment for the deeds of the entire civilization. God tasked Noah with saving himself and his family by constructing the ark. There is no record in Genesis where Noah preached to anyone about anything pertaining to the world being saved. God passed judgement upon the world and carried out that judgement by bringing the world wide flood, which killed all of humanity except for Noah and his family (8 humans). There was no redemptive quality to this judgement.

[Dr. Rich]

sky, even though I like the book P&P, it clearly is fiction-but a good story none the less. Same with Daniel and Revelation. I have a real problem when people use her to prove their point about something when the bible does not agree.