Doug Batchelor Preaches Against Women Pastors

[karl]

Thanks for the links.

I especially appreciated this chapter from the monergism link:

The Church as Family: Why Male Leadership in the Family Requires Male Leadership in the Church

According to Paul, the fundamental principles regarding the structures of the human family are to be applied to the church as God’s household (1 Timothy 3:15). Our personal relations to others in God’s household should take into account what kind of persons they are, whether young or old, male or female (1 Timothy 5:1-2). In particular, the structure of family leadership is to be carried over into God’s household: qualified men are to be appointed as overseers, that is, fathers of the church. A woman, however capable and

gifted she may be, can never become a father of a family. As a woman, she is simply not so constituted. Likewise, a woman may never become a father in God’s household. She may indeed become a “mother” in God’s household, and exercise the roles indicated in 1 Timothy 5:2; 3:11; 5:9-10, 14; Titus 2:3-5; 2 Timothy 1:5. The life of the church never overthrows but rather enhances the life of the family, based on God’s design from creation.

[karl]

John317 said:

Quote:

The church never had women priests or pastors before 1300 AD. So why do you say "the last 700 years"? Can you name a female biship or archbishop during those centuries?

Would you like to share with us why you did not mention a female pope? Well, a am not up on my dates. Perhaps it was after 1300?

I think there is a legend of a female pope (Joan?) from the medieval period (back when popehood was up for sale and there would be contending "popes.")

[John317]

Quote:

karl:

If Junias were a woman, would she have been in prison with Paul?

Good point. That is one reason many translators believe the name must be that of a man, not a woman.

The text says the two individuals "have been in prison with" Paul. It's extremely unlikely that they would have put a woman in prison with Paul, but it is a possibility. We can't rule it out absolutely. It is also possible that Paul simply meant that they were at the same prison or even that they were also in prison for the sake of the gospel.

I have six very good translations that read, "my fellow-countrymen.... they are men held in high esteem..." This is a legitimate translation because those words in the masculine gender. The above was translated by a very highly regarded translator who taught Greek for decades, Charles B. Williams, The New Testament In the Language of the People. It's one of the best, most accurate translations of the New Testament ever published. He specialized in Greek grammar at Union University.

The point I would make is not that the name Iounian is definitely male, but that we don't know for certain whether it is male or female. The evidence proves this unquestionably. There are good arguments on both sides of the question.

Having said that, it is true that probably most scholars today believe it is a female name, yet the truth is also that there is no real certainty. For instance within a space of a few years, the editors of the UBS3 went from being certain it was a male name to being certain that it's a female name. Meantime, excellent translations are still being made which read "Junias," showing that scholars and translators remain undecided. If I were translating it, I would use the male name in the main body of the text, and in the footnotes or margin I would tell the reader the name could be famale. Given the evidence, this would be much more honest than to give the reader the idea we can be certain it's female. In fact, this is what almost all translations, as well as Bible commentaries, do.

[John317]

Quote:

John3:17: The church never had women priests or pastors before 1300 AD. So why do you say "the last 700 years"? Can you name a female biship or archbishop during those centuries?

Quote:

Gregory Matthews: Would you like to share with us why you did not mention a female pope? Well, a am not up on my dates. Perhaps it was after 1300?

This is why, Gregory: She was a fictional pope.:-) Still want to use her? Did you have another female pope in mind? If this is your female pope, you're outa luck. Of course it wouldn't matter to me anyway since in some of those times it probably was possible for anyone to buy the papacy. Very corrupt and not at all interested in following Scripture.

Wikipedia:

Quote:

Pope Joan with tiara as the Whore of Babylon.Pope Joan is a legendary female Pope who supposedly reigned for a few years some time during the Middle Ages. The story first appeared in the writings of 13th-century chroniclers, and subsequently spread through Europe. It was widely believed for centuries, though modern historians and religious scholars consider it fictitious, perhaps deriving from historicized folklore regarding Roman monuments or from anti-papal satire.

I have no faith it.

[John317]

Quote:

Gregory Matthews: Would you like to share with us why you did not mention a female pope? Well, a am not up on my dates. Perhaps it was after 1300?

Quote:

Karl: I think there is a legend of a female pope (Joan?) from the medieval period (back when popehood was up for sale and there would be contending "popes.")

You got it: a legend. Imagine that being mentioned as support for WO in the SDA church. LOL What an embarrasment that would be. Glad someone caught it. :-)

[olger]

John317 said:

Quote:

The church never had women priests or pastors before 1300 AD. So why do you say "the last 700 years"? Can you name a female biship or archbishop during those centuries?

Would you like to share with us why you did not mention a female pope? Well, a am not up on my dates. Perhaps it was after 1300?

The legend of a female pope ranks right there with the legend of Robin Hood. Truly you should have known..

"A lot of the rumors about the "bad popes" are true, but let's not get ridiculous. The female pope story is generally regarded as a fabrication. "Pope Joan," who supposedly served from 855 to 858, was said to be an Englishwoman who disguised herself as a monk to be with her cleric boyfriend. She went to Rome, where she so impressed others with her learning that she was elected pope. Her secret was discovered when she gave birth during a procession, whereupon she was slain. The story is false, although it was possibly inspired by actual events, about which more in a moment.

But many other papal horror stories are entirely legit. In many cases, in fact, weaknesses of the flesh were the least of the popes' sins. In the Middle Ages many popes were elevated to office following the murder of their predecessors. During one particularly grim period from 882 to 1046, there were 37 popes, some of whom served only a few weeks" (The Straight Dope, http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/432/was-there-once-a-female-pope)

regards

[olger]

Yes, I agree with you.

Check out these links to a very good book that discusses all these issues:

The first is to the book, the second to a chapter:

http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_...direction-desc/

http://www.cbmw.org/images/onlinebooks/rbmw/overview_central_concerns.pdf

Thanks. Grudem is an oft-cited reference in this field.

[Woody]

Whether there was a female pope or not ... We acknowledge a female prophet. And if we can have a female prophet having leadership over, ruling over and instructing men .... we can have a female pastor. For both pastors and prophets have the same biblical job description. And both are called messengers of God.

[Gregory Matthews]

John317 said:

Quote:

The church never had women priests or pastors before 1300 AD. So why do you say "the last 700 years"? Can you name a female biship or archbishop during those centuries?

Would you like to share with us why you did not mention a female pope? Well, a am not up on my dates. Perhaps it was after 1300?

I did not state the above well. I had forgotten that it was disproven. I was aware that the RC Church disputed this, but had forgotten that they were correct.

I worded my statement poorly in light of my knowledge that it was in dispute.

Thanks for the correction.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Whether there was a female pope or not ... We acknowledge a female prophet. And if we can have a female prophet having leadership over, ruling over and instructing men .... we can have a female pastor. For both pastors and prophets have the same biblical job description. And both are called messengers of God.

I thought it was the Bible that ruled over and instructed men...

[aldona]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Whether there was a female pope or not ... We acknowledge a female prophet. And if we can have a female prophet having leadership over, ruling over and instructing men .... we can have a female pastor. For both pastors and prophets have the same biblical job description. And both are called messengers of God.

I thought it was the Bible that ruled over and instructed men...

And once again with the misconception that to be a pastor means to "rule over" someone or something...

Did not Christ say something about earthly rulers and "it should not be so among you?"

I've said it before, but until we really understand the meaning of what Christ taught about servant leadership, we will continue arguing about women in ministry forever.

When we really grasp the idea that a leader is someone who should be willing to serve his/her followers to the point of sacrificing his/her life, we will see women encouraged - even pressured- to be ordained, and countless Bible verses quoted on how women make better servants and are naturally more humble and self-sacrificing. Men will avoid such positions like the plague.

AJ

[Woody]

they already do ... that's why we need more women to step in

I agree with the fact that pastors do not rule over ANYthing. The board rules. The conferences rule. The unions rule. The GC rules. GOD RULES.

But not the lowly pastors.

[John317]

Quote:

aldona:

And once again with the misconception that to be a pastor means to "rule over" someone or something...

The SDA church attempts to base its belief system as well as its practices on the Bible.

It says, "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor" (1 Tom. 5: 17). It says in 1 Tim. 3: 1-2 that the bishops also are to "rule." Other words for it are "manage," "directing the affairs of the church," etc. "Bishops" and "elders" are words describing the same office in the NT. Elders are also called "pastors" and "overseers." All these are to "shepherd the church of God" (Acts 20: 28).

Hebrews 13: 17 tells the believers to "obey your leaders [Gk "rulers"] and submit to their authority; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account." The Greek word for "rule" also means to "govern," meaning he's the one in charge. He answerable to God for what he does and says.

It's possible you have the wrong concept of what the Bible is saying by its use of the word "rule." It isn't saying the pastor is to be a dictator. He leads, not drives.

[John317]

they already do ... that's why we need more women to step in

I agree with the fact that pastors do not rule over ANYthing. The board rules. The conferences rule. The unions rule. The GC rules. GOD RULES.

But not the lowly pastors.

Yes, according to the Bible, the lowly pastor does "rule."

It says, "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor" (1 Tom. 5: 17). It says in 1 Tim. 3: 1-2 that the bishops also are to "rule." Other words for it are "manage," "directing the affais of the church," etc. "Bishops" and "elders" are words describing the same office in the NT. Elders are also called "pastors" and "overseers." All these are to "shepherd the church of God" (Acts 20: 28).

Hebrews 13: 17 tells the believers to "obey your leaders [Gk "rulers"] and submit to their authority; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account." The Greek word for "rule" also means to "govern," meaning he's the one in charge. He answerable to God for what he does and says in managing, or governing, and shepherding the local congregation.

[John317]

[John317]

Neil, You said before that you don't accept anything that Epiphanius said about Iounias because he made a mistake about the sex of someone else in the Bible. However, Bible scholars don't judge him in the same way, since he's often listed as an important witness to the Greek text in the footnotes of UBS4 and NA27. If you have copies of these editions, you will see him often in the apparatus' of those Bible's. It's important to realize even the most reliable witnesses made mistakes, but this doesn't make everything they said unreliable. If that was the case, nothing Origen, Jerome or Augustine would be considered important because they also made many errors.

Quote:

Epiphanius (a.d. 315-403), the bishop of Salamis in Cyprus, wrote an Index of

Disciples, in which he includes this line: “Iounias, of whom Paul makes mention, became

bishop of Apameia of Syria” (Index disciplulorum, 125.19-20). In Greek, the phrase “of

whom” is a masculine relative pronoun (hou) and shows that Epiphanius thought Iouniaswas a man.

[olger]

When we really grasp the idea that a leader is someone who should be willing to serve his/her followers to the point of sacrificing his/her life, we will see women encouraged - even pressured- to be ordained, and countless Bible verses quoted on how women make better servants and are naturally more humble and self-sacrificing. Men will avoid such positions like the plague.

AJ

Looking forward to reviewing the "countless verses" that state that women are more humble and self-sacrificing than men. Thanks,

oG

[aldona]

Looking forward to reviewing the "countless verses" that state that women are more humble and self-sacrificing than men. Thanks,

oG

They are found in the same book and chapter with the verses that state that women should not be ordained as pastors.

AJ

[SivartM]

How about where Mary spends all her money on perfume for Jesus and the (male) disciples just mumble angrily? Or that widow who gave everything she owned to the temple?

[Neil D]

Neil, You said before that you don't accept anything that Epiphanius said about Iounias because he made a mistake about the sex of someone else in the Bible. However, Bible scholars don't judge him in the same way, since he's often listed as an important witness to the Greek text in the footnotes of UBS4 and NA27. If you have copies of these editions, you will see him often in the apparatus' of those Bible's. It's important to realize even the most reliable witnesses made mistakes, but this doesn't make everything they said unreliable. If that was the case, nothing Origen, Jerome or Augustine would be considered important because they also made many errors.

John, you may have noticed, I am not replying to your repeated quotations of what I have said...

You might want to leave me out of this....because, I have left this thread at this time....

[Tom Wetmore]

Whether there was a female pope or not ... We acknowledge a female prophet. And if we can have a female prophet having leadership over, ruling over and instructing men .... we can have a female pastor. For both pastors and prophets have the same biblical job description. And both are called messengers of God.

A point for which there seems to be a huge blind spot...

But again I point out that our own church founders published an article in the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald that proclaimed that Phoebe (an undisputed woman) was the first Pope of Rome.

I will happily downgrade that to a mere Bishop... And I would add that there is indeed evidence of other female bishops in the early centuries of the Church... But I am sure that all this will be much disputed, so who really cares?

[Tom Wetmore]

...It says, "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor" (1 Tom. 5: 17). It says in 1 Tim. 3: 1-2 that the bishops also are to "rule." Other words for it are "manage," "directing the affairs of the church," etc. "Bishops" and "elders" are words describing the same office in the NT. Elders are also called "pastors" and "overseers." All these are to "shepherd the church of God" (Acts 20: 28)...

As I have said before, these common terms were use interchangeably enabling flexibility in the NT church. The centuries of tradition that we have adopted is more narrow and restrictive than they intended.

The Greek word regarding the ruling role of the bishops/elders that Paul used in his letter to Timothy is proistemi which is the verb form of the noun, prostatis that he used in Romans to describe Phoebe. She was appointed/endorsed/affirmed/ordained by Paul to serve the NT church in that capacity. She had proven her ability at the church in Cenchrea, so he sent her to the church in Rome to serve there.

And it is in this same letter to Timothy that Paul refers to the council of elders in Ephesus that had ordained Timothy as having both men and women.

That word "manage" in reference to the church is the same as used by EGW when she said that it is not just men that can be entrusted with the "management" of a church. She affirms that women too can serve in that role.

[Tom Wetmore]

For those interested here is an website of an organization, Christians for Biblical Equality, formed back in 1988 for "Advancing a Biblical foundation for gift-based rather than gender-based ministry and service" - http://www.cbeinternational.org/

[nuff sed]

Nope <g> nuff sed

[Tom Wetmore]

No, I did...

I like this. It is as productive and useful as what has preceded it...