This is the word which by the Gospel is preached unto you!

[Robert]

"If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven ; and come, follow Me."

This one account, clearly overturns "faith alone".

"He lived a life of poverty, and suffered often with privation and hunger.... Jesus said, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Those who follow him must share his poverty . "If any man will come after me," he declares, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." "So shall ye be my disciples."

The only way to experience poverty as Christ did is to give up all self-seeking....Don't go to college for those big bucks, do it so you an be the servant of all. Unless you've done this you aren't living Christ's life and therefore you are falling short of the law demands.

[skyblue888]

"No outard observances can take the place of simple faith and entire renunciation of self. But no man can empty himself of self. We can only consent for Christ to accomplish the work." C.O.L.159.

It is not for us to tell others what they must do. The Spirit of Christ will guide as He will be working in us both to will and to do God's good pleasure.

"For it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure." Phil.2:13.

sky

[karl]

"No outard observances can take the place of simple faith and entire renunciation of self. But no man can empty himself of self. We can only consent for Christ to accomplish the work." C.O.L.159.

It is not for us to tell others what they must do. The Spirit of Christ will guide as He will be working in us both to will and to do God's good pleasure.

"For it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure." Phil.2:13.

sky

Amen, bro. Self cannot cast out self, because when self wins this battle, self is still standing.

[skyblue888]

Okay thanks but What exactly do you mean by "casting out" self?

Do you mean like self being literally eradicated?

sky

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

"If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven ; and come, follow Me."

This one account, clearly overturns "faith alone".

"He lived a life of poverty, and suffered often with privation and hunger.... Jesus said, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Those who follow him must share his poverty . "If any man will come after me," he declares, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." "So shall ye be my disciples."

The only way to experience poverty as Christ did is to give up all self-seeking....Don't go to college for those big bucks, do it so you an be the servant of all. Unless you've done this you aren't living Christ's life and therefore you are falling short of the law demands.

John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine ;

32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Disciple: A person who subscribes to the teachings of a master and assists in spreading them.

I think that it would be an assumption that Christ was a pauper. It was true that He did not have a home on earth, and this for obvious reasons. Judas was the treasurer for Christ's ministry and according to comments made by John, there was enough in the account to embezzel some and make it worthwile.

John 12:6 NAS

Now he said this, not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box, he used to pilfer what was put into it.

Jesus always stressed the importance of His words (teaching) and His words are breath of life.

[skyblue888]

The reception of His words and commands, not merely written but spoken, is the reception of Christ Himself, the bread that comes down from Heaven. John 6:63,68.

sky

[wayfinder]

I appreciate your words on this and I would add a qualification. The Son of God speaks and teaches the truth; therefore unless we know the truth His words will be foriegn to us, in fact they will appear to be a lie. That is why Jesus made these types of statements.

John 8:43 NAS

"Why do you not understand what I am saying ? It is because you cannot hear My word

Revelation 3:20 NAS

'Behold, I stand at the door and knock ; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Without a doubt, the teachers and experts on the Law heard Jesus voice, but they did not recognize it as the truth. When Jesus stands at the door and knocks, it is not His knocking that we hear, but it must be His voice. The bottomline is this when he knocks on our door do we know the truth or think we know the truth. Are we like the teachers and experts on the Law or like His disciples.

[Just*]

E.J. Waggoner spoke of the law of God's mouth very eloquently:

"That same word that spoke the universe into existence, which said to the earth, 'Bring forth grass,' speaks to us in the words of God's law. But His law is not a harsh, lifeless decree, which weak mortals are to strive in vain to keep, while God watches them with a stern eye ready to taunt and punish them for failure; but we 'know that His commandment is life everlasting.' John 12:50. That word which says to us, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself,' sheds that love abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit just as the word of God brings forth the fruit in the plant. Then well may we sing:

'How gentle God's commands!

How kind His precepts are!'" The Gospel in Creation, p.103,104.

It is so in us unless we interpose an evil heart of unbelief.

sky

" When He speaks, the word which names the thing, contains the very thing itself. Whatever the word describes exists in living form in that word.

This is indicated by the words of the apostle Paul concerning God that He "calleth those things which be not as though they were." This is an attribute of Divinity alone. If a man calls a thing that is not, as though it were, it is a lie. But God does so, and He cannot lie. How is this? Simply because that when He calls a thing by name, or says that a thing will be, it already exists, even though it cannot be seen. The thing is in His word. When He names a thing that previously had no existence, that instant the thing will be, then it is as sure as though it had already appeared, because it does really exist in the word that has been spoken. It is for this reason that so much of prophecy is in the perfect tense, as though already accomplished. So when the worlds were to be brought into existence, God spoke, and there they were. They were formed by the breath of His mouth.

Now see how firm a foundation is given the believing one who knows that all things were created by the word of God, and that when God speaks, the thing named exists, full of life. The psalmist says, "I will hear what God the Lord will speak: for He will speak peace unto His people, and to His saints" (Psalm 85:8). "He speaks peace through the Divine Word, for He is our peace" (Ephesians 2:14). But peace means righteousness, for we read, "Great peace have they which love Thy law: and nothing shall offend them" (Psalm 119:165), or cause them to stumble. And again, "O that thou hadst hearkened to My commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea" Isaiah 48:18. Then it must be that God speaks righteousness when He speaks peace. And so it is, for again we read:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified [made righteous, or doers of the law] freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set for to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time His righteousness; that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (Romans 3:21-26).

Notice that man is declared to have no righteousness: "There is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Romans 3:12). No one has anything in him out of which righteousness can be made. Then the righteousness of God is put, literally, into and upon all that believe. Then they are both clothed with righteousness, and filled with it, according to the Scripture. In fact, they then become "the righteousness of God" in Christ. And how is this accomplished? God declares His righteousness upon the one who believes. To declare is to speak. So God speaks to the sinner, who is nothing, and who has nothing, and says, "You are righteous," and immediately that believing sinner ceases to be a sinner, and is the righteousness of God. The word of God which speaks righteousness has the righteousness itself in it, and as soon as the sinner believes, and receives that word into his own heart by faith, that moment he has the righteousness of God in his heart; and since out of the heart are the issues of life, it follows that a new life is thus begun in him; and that life is a life of obedience to the commandments of God. Thus faith is indeed the substance of things hoped for; because faith appropriate the word of God, and the word of God is substance.

...Christ is the Divine Word; He is in the spoken word; and so, since all things hold together in Him, they are upheld by His powerful word...

According to the words of Christ, in the Sermon on the Mount, we build upon the rock by hearing and doing His words. The word of God is "God breathed," and therefore full of His own life. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17), and Christ dwells in the heart by faith; therefore the word has Christ in it, because it brings Christ into the heart. The word of a man stands for the man himself. It is worth just as much as he is. If he is a worthless character, his word is worth nothing; but if he is an honorable man, and has promised a thing, his word is worth all that he is worth, or all that he can do. The word represents him. We say that a man does a thing which his servant does in obedience to his word. So the word of God stands for Himself. All that God is worth, His word is worth. It represents Him, because it is full of His life." The Gospel in Creation,

E.J. Waggoner

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Rev 14:6-7

+

1Тhessal.2:13

[LifeHiscost]

Only those who are saved by faith are able to develop characters like Jesus.

Is that an "oops" or is there a way what you express can be made consistent with this Word?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God," Ephesians 2:8 NKJV

Regards!!

[pnattmbtc]

Hey, Life, haven't seen you for awhile.

[pnattmbtc]

I think the theological talk obscures the real issue, which is quite simple. Please consider the following description:

Quote:

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb?

No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire.

They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542)

I know some here don't accept EGW, but I'm not quoting the above so much as an authoritative statement as an eloquent presentation of a simple principle, which is that if we are not in harmony with God and the principles of His government, we would not be happy in heaven. Another way of saying this is to love God and His principles.

So the key thing God is seeking to do in our lives is to mold us into citizens of His kingdom. God wants us to have the mind of Christ. Agape vs. me first.

[skyblue888]

pnatt, what does your last post have to do with "this is the word which by the Gospel is preached unto you"??? its like your bringing the "character" of God thread over here???

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

E.J. Waggoner spoke of the law of God's mouth very eloquently:

"That same word that spoke the universe into existence, which said to the earth, 'Bring forth grass,' speaks to us in the words of God's law. But His law is not a harsh, lifeless decree, which weak mortals are to strive in vain to keep, while God watches them with a stern eye ready to taunt and punish them for failure; but we 'know that His commandment is life everlasting.' John 12:50. That word which says to us, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself,' sheds that love abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit just as the word of God brings forth the fruit in the plant. Then well may we sing:

'How gentle God's commands!

How kind His precepts are!'" The Gospel in Creation, p.103,104.

It is so in us unless we interpose an evil heart of unbelief.

sky

" When He speaks, the word which names the thing, contains the very thing itself. Whatever the word describes exists in living form in that word.

This is indicated by the words of the apostle Paul concerning God that He "calleth those things which be not as though they were." This is an attribute of Divinity alone. If a man calls a thing that is not, as though it were, it is a lie. But God does so, and He cannot lie. How is this? Simply because that when He calls a thing by name, or says that a thing will be, it already exists, even though it cannot be seen. The thing is in His word. When He names a thing that previously had no existence, that instant the thing will be, then it is as sure as though it had already appeared, because it does really exist in the word that has been spoken. It is for this reason that so much of prophecy is in the perfect tense, as though already accomplished. So when the worlds were to be brought into existence, God spoke, and there they were. They were formed by the breath of His mouth.

Now see how firm a foundation is given the believing one who knows that all things were created by the word of God, and that when God speaks, the thing named exists, full of life. The psalmist says, "I will hear what God the Lord will speak: for He will speak peace unto His people, and to His saints" (Psalm 85:8). "He speaks peace through the Divine Word, for He is our peace" (Ephesians 2:14). But peace means righteousness, for we read, "Great peace have they which love Thy law: and nothing shall offend them" (Psalm 119:165), or cause them to stumble. And again, "O that thou hadst hearkened to My commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea" Isaiah 48:18. Then it must be that God speaks righteousness when He speaks peace. And so it is, for again we read:

"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified [made righteous, or doers of the law] freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set for to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time His righteousness; that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (Romans 3:21-26).

Notice that man is declared to have no righteousness: "There is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Romans 3:12). No one has anything in him out of which righteousness can be made. Then the righteousness of God is put, literally, into and upon all that believe. Then they are both clothed with righteousness, and filled with it, according to the Scripture. In fact, they then become "the righteousness of God" in Christ. And how is this accomplished? God declares His righteousness upon the one who believes. To declare is to speak. So God speaks to the sinner, who is nothing, and who has nothing, and says, "You are righteous," and immediately that believing sinner ceases to be a sinner, and is the righteousness of God. The word of God which speaks righteousness has the righteousness itself in it, and as soon as the sinner believes, and receives that word into his own heart by faith, that moment he has the righteousness of God in his heart; and since out of the heart are the issues of life, it follows that a new life is thus begun in him; and that life is a life of obedience to the commandments of God. Thus faith is indeed the substance of things hoped for; because faith appropriate the word of God, and the word of God is substance.

...Christ is the Divine Word; He is in the spoken word; and so, since all things hold together in Him, they are upheld by His powerful word...

According to the words of Christ, in the Sermon on the Mount, we build upon the rock by hearing and doing His words. The word of God is "God breathed," and therefore full of His own life. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17), and Christ dwells in the heart by faith; therefore the word has Christ in it, because it brings Christ into the heart. The word of a man stands for the man himself. It is worth just as much as he is. If he is a worthless character, his word is worth nothing; but if he is an honorable man, and has promised a thing, his word is worth all that he is worth, or all that he can do. The word represents him. We say that a man does a thing which his servant does in obedience to his word. So the word of God stands for Himself. All that God is worth, His word is worth. It represents Him, because it is full of His life." The Gospel in Creation,

E.J. Waggoner

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Rev 14:6-7

+

1Тhessal.2:13

This is the kind of talk we need to have more because this is the key of knowledge, hearing the voice of Him whose word can renew the soul unto everlasting life. Waggoner's book The Gospel in Creation is too little known or read. It is probably the most important book he ever wrote. And it is said that the content of that book was part of the 1888 message he gave at Minneapolis.

Thanks for sharing this.

Just one thing, it is hard to read what you put in bold and it's too big. Someone will think you are shouting at them.

"I the Lord SPEAK righteousness." "The word is gone out of My MOUTH in righteousness." Isaiah 45:19,23. "All the words of My MOUTH are with righteousness." Prov.8:8.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

pnatt, what does your last post have to do with "this is the word which by the Gospel is preached unto you"??? its like your bringing the "character" of God thread over here???

Three question marks! So that indicates real confusion.

I guess I'm confused that what I wrote isn't perceived as having anything to do with the Gospel.

A quick response is that I understand the following to be the Gospel: "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father."

The reason I wrote what I did was that I was perceiving a lot of theological jargon being thrown back and forth, but not a dealing with the real issues at stake.

Quote:

It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. His sophistry lessens the obligation of the divine law and gives men license to sin. At the same time he causes them to cherish false conceptions of God so that they regard Him with fear and hate rather than with love. The cruelty inherent in his own character is attributed to the Creator; it is embodied in systems of religion and expressed in modes of worship.(GC 569)

We see three things mentioned in particular:

1.The character of God.

2.The nature of sin.

3.The real issues at stake in the Great Controversy.

It seems to me that the Gospel of the Kingdom not only can't be divorced from these, but the Gospel of the Kingdom is specifically *about* these things.

I guess a question to ask would be what the Gospel of the Kingdom is. To me it's the Good News of Jesus Christ, the Person, and the principles of His government. What I quoted from is certainly related to these things, right? So if I have the Gospel of the Kingdom right, then what I wrote ties directly to the subject, doesn't it?

[skyblue888]

I didn't say it had nothing to do with the Gospel. It certainly does. But the principles of God's dealing with sin are a different issue of the Gospel. It is important to understand that God's ways are righteous but if we do not know how to receive His righteousness, it will amount to nothing to know that God does not stand as an executioner of the sentence against transgression.

I didn't want this thread to be a discussion about whether God tortures people or not but about how to receive Christ and His righteousness.

sky

The gospel of the kingdom is the gospel of His grace. "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." 2 Tim.4:22.

Is the grace of God with you? if not, why not?

That is the subject of this thread. If we have not the grace of God with us, how can one be able to understand or appreciate His character, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin?

sky

[pnattmbtc]

sky, what I'm reading here is not what to me is either the Gospel or righteousness by faith. I'm discussing what I believe these things to be.

For example, I see a lot that's discussing God's word being spoken. But this is of no value, IMO, without a context. The context, as I see it, are the things I've been bringing up; developing characters which are in harmony with God's character and the principles of His government.

What I was writing previously was not in relation to the judgment question being discussed on the other thread. The point is that if we are not in harmony with God and the principles of His government, we wouldn't be happy in heaven. The Gospel, or righteousness by faith, needs to be dealing with this, is what I'm saying.

[LifeHiscost]

I think the theological talk obscures the real issue, which is quite simple. Please consider the following description:

Quote:

Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542)

I know some here don't accept EGW, but I'm not quoting the above so much as an authoritative statement as an eloquent presentation of a simple principle, which is that if we are not in harmony with God and the principles of His government, we would not be happy in heaven. Another way of saying this is to love God and His principles.

So the key thing God is seeking to do in our lives is to mold us into citizens of His kingdom. God wants us to have the mind of Christ. Agape vs. me first.

Thanks for noticing my absence, pnattmbtc. There have been enough others at times to indicate a clear desire on my part to be here, but family health issues have interrupted my normal habits, as well as making an effort to get some on line schooling to prepare for a better ability to provide in a world fast losing it's grasp on the underlined above.

Surprising how fast one's mind loses its' agility when not occupied with anything other than feeding itself.

Appreciated your post above and a mutual acceptance of the benefits God granted to His end time people through EGW, for a time of history when far more than personal wisdom and intellectual knowledge will be needed to survive for eternity.

God's blessings to all who will grasp at anything God will provide for a closer walk with Him.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. James 1:17 NKJV

God is love and God is sovereign, and it will never be any other way. Praise God!