Ordination

[Stan]

Ever thought Ordination should be on results, not education, or if they happen to own a Penis or not?

[WayneV]

Ever thought Ordination should be on results, not education, or if they happen to own a Penis or not?

Stan,

I have two things to say in response. First, as to ordination based on results instead of education, let me say:

Second, regarding owning a penis, I would like to point out that my wife owns one; it may be attached to me but it belongs to her!

Agape`

[phkrause]

Second, regarding owning a penis, I would like to point out that my wife owns one; it may be attached to me but it belongs to her!

Agape`

pk

[Christopher]

Originally Posted By: WayneV

Second, regarding owning a penis, I would like to point out that my wife owns one; it may be attached to me but it belongs to her!

Agape`

pk

Amen...so true

[John317]

Quote:

Stan Jensen: Ever thought Ordination should be on results, not education, or if they happen to own a Penis or not?

I don't think it's a matter of owning a penis. It's a matter of what comes with a penis, which is a male brain, male hormones, the male's way to reacting to things, and everything else that distinguishes a man from a woman. A man is not a woman with a penis, nor is a woman a man without a penis. There are real and important differences, and the Bible shows that God made those differences for a reason.

When people ask if being a male or not is important in the church, we could say the same in regard to God's choice of men as priests, kings, and disciples. We could even say the same about Christ's coming here as a man instead of as a woman. We might also say the same thing about football players or boxers. Why not have the males fight the women, or play football against the women's teams, since the only difference is that the males have a penis? But when we say that, it becomes obvious that the differences do matter. So it is in regard to the work of the church.

One concern that I have is that the day will come when gays will make very effective pastors, and at that point, people will argue that God is leading the church to accept gays as leaders in the SDA church. That is what has happened in other denominations, and it is beginning to find a place in the minds and hearts of some SDAs. Therefore, if we get used to deciding these kinds of issues on the basis of how successful the person is in their pastorate, we will be inclinded to also accept openly gay pastors. But is this the way we should decide the question of women's role in the church or the issue of whether practicing homosexuals ought to be members and pastors in the church? I believe the only safe way for us to decide is by a study of the Bible and through reliance on God for wisdom and guidance.

[nuff sed]

Ordination is not a prize for doing something. It is a commission to 'do something'. Currently, ordination of women is not done by the Adventist Church. Men are ordained to be pastors/ministers etc.

We must recognize that the church being worldwide must also take into consideration the cultures and mores of the whole world before making decisions that affect the church as a whole.The "American way" of doing things is not always God's way of doing things. When and if the denomination changes its mind on this matter so be it. 'nuff sed

[teresaq]

Quote:

Stan Jensen: Ever thought Ordination should be on results, not education, or if they happen to own a Penis or not?

One concern that I have is that the day will come when gays will make very effective pastors, and at that point, people will argue that God is leading the church to accept gays as leaders in the SDA church. That is what has happened in other denominations, and it is beginning to find a place in the minds and hearts of some SDAs.

so, are you saying that the men pastors we have now are without sin?

is their sin "not as bad" as homosexuality?

i would be curious to know how many "closet" homosexual pastors there have been, perhaps....

but seeing the one as leading to the other bothers me. wonder if there were some who had such reasoning when it came to accepting the black brother/sister as an equal...what fears discouraged the adoption of that?

[Dr. Shane]

I think John 317 is talking about open and practicing gays. Not gays such as himself. I will let him clarify that.

[Gerr]

Just tagging on.

While I am intellectually FOR the ordination of women, I am at this point neither convinced theologically either for or against it. Until we have a definitive "thus saith the Lord," we should let the world church decide the issue for the sake of unity. That is not to say that in matters of conscience that the church should be the final arbiter of right and wrong. This should be between God and the believer alone. If God can call a woman to be teachers, lawyers, doctors, etc. and the prophetic office which in my mind is a far greater and more responsible calling than a pastor, who then proceeds to lead and speak behind the pulpit, it doesn't seem logical to deny them that office. On the other hand, I can also see that Paul seems to argue against it which seems to be founded on creation rather based on culture.

PS

Ordination should be based on a calling, not by education, nepotism, gender, or achievement. Although the achievement would be a strong argument to me that such a person is called.

[lazarus]

PS

Ordination should be based on a calling, not by education, nepotism, gender, or achievement. Although the achievement would be a strong argument to me that such a person is called.

Ordination is always a recognition of ones calling. Pastors fresh out of college typically don't get ordained because they need to give evidence of their calling. In my conference it comes after about 4 years of preaching, teaching , baptizing and leading a church that a pastor gets ordained. Four years in ministry in this day and age is an achievement.

[Woody]

How many years do you have under your belt Laz?

[John317]

Quote:

Shane: I think John 317 is talking about open and practicing gays. Not gays such as himself. I will let him clarify that.

You're right, Shane. I see a big difference between hiring people to work in the church who are openly practicing and are making no effort to change-- and in fact, may be encouraging people to practice it-- and hiring those who are sincerely trying by God's grace to overcome their sins.

[John317]

Quote:

'nuff sed: ...We must recognize that the church being worldwide must also take into consideration the cultures and mores of the whole world before making decisions that affect the church as a whole.The "American way" of doing things is not always God's way of doing things. When and if the denomination changes its mind on this matter so be it. 'nuff sed

I agree. If the time comes when our church makes this decision as a world body of believers, I'll be OK with it. I want to see the whole church move together on it, and not one part doing it and another part believing it to be wrong. Any change needs to be based on coherent Bible and theological principles and not on feelings of people that it's the right thing to do because society favors it.

[John317]

Quote:

John317: One concern that I have is that the day will come when gays will make very effective pastors, and at that point, people will argue that God is leading the church to accept gays as leaders in the SDA church. That is what has happened in other denominations, and it is beginning to find a place in the minds and hearts of some SDAs.

Quote:

teresaq(sda):so, are you saying that the men pastors we have now are without sin?

Nope.

Quote:

teresaq(sda):is their sin "not as bad" as homosexuality?

You mean the sins of heterosexuals? No, I'm not saying that at all. All sin is sin and any sin that we love and hold on to will keep us out of God's kingdom. I would say the same about a man who talks racial hatred openly and thinks it's all right. Or who openly gossips and think there's nothing wrong with it and encourages people to do it.

The reason I talk about homosexuality is not that I view it as a worse sin, but because it is a sin close to my own life. It is a sin that I have struggled with for most of my life and a sin that I came close to surrendering to entirely and being totally overcome by. I know what it's like to stop struggling with it. I hope you don't want to encourage people to reach that point.

I have a feeling that for you, homosexuality is just a topic to talk about, but for me it is the air I breath and a constant presence. I suppose if I were an alcoholic I would be talking about it instead.

Quote:

teresaq(sda): i would be curious to know how many "closet" homosexual pastors there have been, perhaps....

I'm not talking about "closet homosexuals," and there's nothing anyone an do about it anyway. I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone should start looking for closet homosexuals. That would be wrong, too. I'm talking about people who openly practice it and teach that practicing homosexuality is not a sin or that God can't give people victory over that particular sin. I believe if we as a church ever reach that point, we will have ceased to proclaim the Three Angels' Messages. An essential aspect of that message is that God has the power to save even the worst sinner-- and that saving is more than forgivenss, or the covering of our sins; it includes cleansing us of all unrighteousness and blotting out all our sins both from the records in heaven and from our actual lives. He can do it but if we don't believe He can, He won't.

Quote:

teresaq(sda): but seeing the one as leading to the other bothers me. wonder if there were some who had such reasoning when it came to accepting the black brother/sister as an equal...what fears discouraged the adoption of that?

Could you explain this further?

[karl]

I'm talking about people who openly practice it and teach that practicing homosexuality is not a sin or that God can't give people victory over that particular sin. I believe if we as a church ever reach that point, we will have ceased to proclaim the Three Angels' Messages. An essential aspect of that message is that God has the power to save even the worst sinner-- and that saving is more than forgivenss, or the covering of our sins; it includes cleansing us of all unrighteousness and blotting out all our sins both from the records in heaven and from our actual lives.

Preach it, brother.

If we believe we will be taking an unsanctified character to heaven, we're mistaken. If we believe God will magically sanctify us after He raptures or resurrects us, we really don't believe WE will be saved. That would not be US that would be saved. It would be somebody else - somebody new that God created.

[Woody]

Yes. Praise God we are sanctifed when we accept Jesus and are baptized.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I was baptized and I'm not sanctified.

[Woody]

oh yes you ARE. I've witnessed it . :)

[lazarus]

How many years do you have under your belt Laz?

13

[Woody]

WEll Laz ... if you've made it past that unlucky number ... you should be alright. :)

[Neil D]

Quote:

Stan Jensen: Ever thought Ordination should be on results, not education, or if they happen to own a Penis or not?

I don't think it's a matter of owning a penis. It's a matter of what comes with a penis, which is a male brain, male hormones, the male's way to reacting to things, and everything else that distinguishes a man from a woman. A man is not a woman with a penis, nor is a woman a man without a penis. There are real and important differences, and the Bible shows that God made those differences for a reason.

Not too long ago, I heard a question that had a bit of truth implied in it....I think it applys to what you have just said very well...

"Why did God make enough blood to operate one head at a time?"

We understand that prophecy is important because the Words that God gives the prophet will guide the Church. We also understand that one who becomes a prophet are automatically placed into leadership positions, specifically they are who guide leaders. If God wanted to guide the church, he raises up prophets. If God wanted a female prophet in our time, he would have risen one up....Ooooooh, it seems He did to that....

[Woody]

Neil. Is it safe to received a woman's blood if ye b a man? Or would that disqualify one from being ordained? Even more severe ... what if you received a heart transplant of a woman. After all the heart is the 'seat of knowledge' right?