Present Truth....

[Stan]

How does it/how CAN it change… Yesterday's Truth?

[Tom Wetmore]

Do you mean sort of like, "Today is March 31, 2010" was present truth for yesterday, but just an April fool's joke today?

[Stan]

More like

Yesterday, (well 2,000 years ago) females were told to be silent in Church

Today, they can lead out in speaking and managing.

[abelisle]

Maybe we need to talk about "progressive" truth - the core being the same but lots of new illuminations along the way?

Alex

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes, I see it as a wholistically healthy perspective. It is consistent with life. It is my belief that Truth, just like life, is dynamic and therefore tends to progress, adapt, evolve and change. The term, Present Truth, incorporates that dynamic time element. The time concept of the present is always moving. Time and life are not static. And we are time bound creatures. We cannot alter time. We cannot stop time. To stop time is to end life as we know it. To freeze ones frame of reference to a past time period and conduct ones life as if time has not changed is generally regarded as dysfunctional. In the extreme it can be a psychological disorder of always dwelling on the past or a specific past event and not being able to move on and live in the present. And one cannot get to the future without living passing throught the present moment.

To view Truth as static tends toward stagnation, making it less flexible and adaptable to changing and totally new []present circumstances. That sets it up to being perceived as irrelevant and out of touch with current realities. While I can allow for the idea of unchangeable Truth, I think that the Truths that never change are far fewer than often assumed.

This does fundamentally colors how I look at spiritual things and understand and interpret spiritual writings, be they Scripture or otherwise.

[Woody]

Amen. Our present truth will be ever evolving to our present level of spirituality. And I think the Holy Spirit is being poured out more and more due to our cultural needs. The area of women in ministry is just one prime example. But the belief that women are lacking in intelligence ... should not hinder their work. Instead ... I think it will bolster Present Truth for them to become more active.

[Dr. Rich]

Tom, if the truth changes, then it can't be the real truth. Truth must, by it's own definition, be singular and absolute. Everything else would be a lie. Just because people's opinion of truth changes does not make truth itself change.

God does not change-does He? Yet people's understanding of God can and does change. Jesus said to walk in the light while you have it. Would not this mean to learn the truth while the truth is shining upon them?

Therefore, when one give a statement saying "The Present Truth", they are claiming that their understanding of the truth at the present [time] is just what they claim--but it may NOT be, and probably is NOT, the singular and absolute truth.

Please note God's Daniel 21:10's message to Daniel on the understanding the truth regarding the end time prophecies Daniel wrote down. If the understanding was sealed up until a proper time, then anyone and everyone who is now dead who wrote and proclaimed to have truth regarding these prophecies, would only have so called "present truth", but not the one absolute truth.

Knowing this rule and following it would free us from the mistakes of the past "present truth" that in fact could not be the real truth.

It is clear that the Rulers in Jesus' day refused to follow this rule and were told by Jesus that their father was Satan, because he was a liar from the beginning. To them, not following this rule was deadly. In the prophecy concerning the Kingdom of Heaven in the last generation, the foolish bridesmaids will have that same deadly problem.

[Christopher]

Just th phrase "present Truth" shows that there can be and should be some kind of change involved.

I don't think the truth itself changes but grows or is expanded on from whatever point they/we believe the "Present Truth" started.

What has actually changed in the SDA defenition of "Present Truth"

Since the def. was first presented?

[Dr. Rich]

Christopher, the question is not "what has.." but should be "What IS changing now from what was/has been in the past.?

[Guest]

Real truth does not change, but the importance of it can and does change, as time changes. For instance: The procedure for a colonoscopy hasn't changed much since they started performing them. It is what it is. And what they say happens during one of these, is the truth. But when you have an appointment to have one done tomorrow at 10:30 A.M. it becomes present truth.

[Stan]

Putting a young virgin female in bed with an old man to revive him? That was present truth at one time.... would not go over that well now.

[Dr. Rich]

Not in this country anyway.

[Nan]

We have electric blankets these days.

I wonder what happened to Ahishag after David died. Solomon's older brother Adonijah got Bathsheba to ask Solomon if he, Adonijah, could marry Abishag. Solomon's response was to get Benaiah to kill Adonijah.....

[Dr. Rich]

Things have not changed much-today women are treated like a bus. If you miss one, another one will come around in a little while. (Or is it the other way around?)

Back on the present truth--the present truth on the condition of the SDA church is that, as a corporate group, they are all spiritually sleeping because they think they know it all.

When a class of high school kids in our SDA Academy were asked to name the four gospels, only one of them could. When they were told that the four gospels are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, they were asked how many of them were Jesus' disciples? NONE of them got this question right.

So, just what are our kids learning in our schools? My son learned to smoke pot and drink beer. How about yours?

[nuff sed]

Things have not changed much-today women are treated like a bus. If you miss one, another one will come around in a little while.

As long as there are 2+ females to every male in the church this will continue to be the case... 'nuff sed

[Tom Wetmore]

I'm think we are difting from the topic at hand...

[Martus]

Folks who live up to the light they are given have present truth whether or not they know Jesus Christ or the knowledge of the Sabbath day as there are many in times past who will be glorified.

The question raised is vague and can be taken to a spur of understanding/meaning.

for example, there are many Adventist churches and others today who preach "Truth" but not "present Truth" and their spiritual leaders reasoning for this behavior varies greatly.

[cardw]

[Regarding Dr. Rich's assertion the Truth never changes, etc.]

This really addresses the problems with claiming that one has The Truth, because if it is singular and absolute then one becomes closed off from examining if it is indeed The Truth.

Sometimes what we think is true does not simply evolve or progress. Sometimes it changes completely how we see the world. An example is that the Bible saw disease being caused by a demon possessing a person.

This belief created all kinds of "solutions" that either didn't work or caused whole generations of "healers" to be burned at the stake. In one example the Bishop was suffering from gout and a healer was brought in and relieved the pain of his gout but since she was considered a witch she was promptly burned at the stake. And the punishment for witchcraft in the Bible is burning. This is the type of harm that has come in the past because of fundamentalistic approaches to truth. This is one reason that the western world has a limited natural healing history. This knowledge was all but destroyed by Bible Truth believing Christians.

Skepticism was developed to prevent this type of blind devotion to authoritarian declarations of truth. And yet doubt is condemned in Christian views of truth, when doubt can be quite useful in the pursuit of truth.

[Dr. Rich]

Rev. 21:8 and 22:15 show that the truth will be very important for the generation living when the time of trouble comes. The reason for the time of trouble is for the 144k to show the world the singular and absolute truth. People who die before they have had a chance to know the absolute truth are the ones saved by grace IF they were still seeking the truth when they died. One who refuses to seek the truth is one who seeks and practices lies. Everything that is not of the truth is a lie.

If one is closed off from seeking the truth, then they are in the same condition as found in the seventh message to the KOH as found in Rev. 3.

[Kountzer]

Writer & Evangelist JL Shuler wrote a nice book, or booklet entitled "The Search For the Truth". One of the chapters in the book is called "The Present Truth". Reading that chapter enlightened me on the topic. Perhaps it will do the same for you.

I am paraphrasing some of what the book says about present truth:

God has given mankind timeless truths, and truths for the times. Timeless truth are applicable to all people at all times.

Some of these are salvation only by faith in the LOrd Jesus Christ, repentence, pardon, obedience, love to God with all one's heart, and love for one's neighbor as for oneself.

In addition to these timeless truths are truths to meet certain situations at specific times. The latter truths are what we call present truth. Examples are Noah's message about the impending worldwide flood, Jonah's message to the people of Ninevah, the message of John the Baptist as a forerunner of Christ, etc.

[phkrause]

I like that Kountzer. Sounds like a real good book.

pk

[Dr. Rich]

Interesting opinion. Can anyone show me in Genesis where I can read about Noah's message about the impending worldwide flood?

And let's see, John the Baptist's message was correct, right? I mean, it would have been IF the Jews would have done what Daniel 9:24 states. Problem was, they were only hearing part of the truth, not the whole truth. I see the same thing going on today with the majority of the christian church(s). The forerunner for the 144k will be the good and faithful servant as found in Matthew 24:45.

[Dr. Rich]

Ok, I see no one could show me where Noah's message about the impending worldwide flood was in Genesis, so I will open it up to show me from any source where I can read about Noah's message about the impending flood. Will this be ok Tom?

[Ellen]

I guess you are inferring Noah didn't preach while he was preparing the ark. We know many others helped with the building.

I am thinking his actions were a kind of preaching, as well there were many who scoffed him so he must have preached without a sermon being reported.

I wonder how many of the drowned residents will be in heaven.

[Kountzer]

My guess is none.