Thus spake Kommentariat

[jasd]

on that advanced from pages 326-328 of The GC...:

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And it clearly gives 1844 as the end of the 2,300 year prophecy.

jasd 12:12 Except that Gd lay the foundation, they labour in vain who buildeth the house.

The foundation which yields the date AD 1844 or ‘43 cannot be substantiated by/in Holy Writ – and was subsequently disavowed by even the very Wm Miller – who first developed the assertion and date.

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The angel had been sent to Daniel for the express purpose of explaining to him the point which he had failed to understand in the vision of the eighth chapter, the statement relative to time—

Umm, that might be so should we interpret Daniel 9:21 ...”Yea, whiles I [was] speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning,” as it has been translated; however, “beginning” may be better understood if read as was intended in the 1700s – “the first time” or “previously”. Read thusly, any imagined tying of the depictions of Daniel 8 to Daniel 9 is resolved - negatively. Further, the passing of approximately a dozen years between the third year of Balshazzar (Dan 8) and the first year of Darius (Dan 9) – dilute the idea of the two chapters being meant to be read in tandem or concurrently.

Chapter nine informs the expositor that the prophet was praying specifically about the prophetic warning of Jeremiah re the “seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem” and the “oath that [is] written in the law of Moses”.

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"unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The following is a borrow...

“The Hebrew word that is usually translated cleansed or restored in this passage is

nisdaq. The term or root from which this word was formed is the verb sadaq. “It occurs

22 times in the active form (qal), 5 times in the intensive (piel), 12 in the causative

(hiphil), once in the reflexive (hithpael), and once in the passive (niphal). This last type is

found in Daniel 8:14; hence the form nisdaq. This passive form of the root sadaq

unfortunately is a hapax legomenon (a word which occurs only once in the Bible). This

raises the question, How shall it be properly translated?” (Frank B. Holbrook, Editor,

Symposium on Daniel, p. 479). This same source explains just how easily this is done:

“The Qal forms mean ‘to be in the right, be right, have a just case, be vindicated, be

just, righteous.’ The intensive forms of the Piel mean ‘to declare someone to be right, to

make someone appear righteous, innocent, to desire oneself just.’ The causative Hiphil

forms mean ‘to give or bring justice, to declare righteous, to justify, vindicate.’ And

finally, the one Hithpael form means, ‘to justify oneself’“ (ibid), p. 452. On page 479:

“The causative form (hiphil) of sadaq will mean ‘cause to be right,’ ‘cause to be just.’

The reflexive form (hithpael) will mean ‘make oneself right,’ or ‘justify oneself.’ In the

same way nisdaq is simply the passive of sadaq, and will have the meaning ‘be made

right,’ ‘be made just,’ or the like.” “This”, they say, “would be the simplest and most

straightforward translation, and is the one followed by most recent Bible translators.”

“They have followed the immediate, ordinary meaning of the word” (ibid), p. 479.”

Let me add: the above speaks not to a thing (sanctuary) but to a whom (Judah/Jews). Psalms 114 informs that Judah was Gd’s sanctuary[/red] and Israel His inheritance/dominion.

[jasd]

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After bidding Daniel "understand the matter, and consider the vision," the very first words of the angel are: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy Holy City." The word here translated "determined" literally signifies "cut off."

Should Daniel have wished to endue “chathak” in “Seventy weeks are determined (#2852 chathak) upon thy people and upon thy holy city...” (Dan 9:24) with the meaning of “cut off” rather than its intrinsic meaning of...

#2852 chathak

1) to divide, determine [or, to cut: ed.jasd]

a) (Niphal) to be determined, be decreed, be settled, be marked out

then he certainly would have used "karath" as he did in Daniel 9:26 “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (karath).

#3772 karath

1) to cut, cut off, cut down, cut off a body part, cut out, eliminate, kill, cut a covenant [...etc: ed.jasd]

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Seventy weeks, representing 490 years, are declared by the angel to be cut off,

The text reads, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city...”, which in fact provides us with the fact that indeed!—the seventy weeks were/are divided into its component or constituent parts: “seven weeks”, “threescore and two weeks”, with yet ‘one week’ unfulfilled – with no relevance to the 2300-days prophecy.

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...as specially pertaining to the Jews.

I think Writ prefaces the appearance of the ‘man’ Gabriel with Daniel supplicating and praying re the disposition vis-à-vis both the Kingdoms of Israel, the Northern Ephraimites and the Southern Jews.

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But from what were they cut off?[/ed.jasd]

It may be that “off” is an eisegetic insertion/addition into the meaning of chathak.

Review the above: "chathak" intends that the Seventy weeks itself are divided into the component or constituent parts, and not that the Seventy weeks are “cut off” from anything else imagined...

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As the 2300 days was the only period of time mentioned in chapter 8,

Maybe, the prophecy of Daniel 8 ought not be conflated with the events of Daniel 9, which occur approximately a baker’s dozen years later.

[jasd]

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...it must be the period from which the seventy weeks were cut off; the seventy weeks must therefore be a part of the 2300 days,

By itself, 2300 is a rather odd number, yes?—however, remember in the above “the oath that [is] written in the law of Moses”. Wouldn’t Leviticus 26 with its repetitive seven-times curse be considered to be “in the law of Moses”? I believe a seven-times curse would work out to a period of 2520 years. 2300 evenings and mornings may well represent that period remaining from the beginning of a 2520-year curse.

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The seventy weeks were declared by the angel to date from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem. If the date of this commandment could be found, then the starting point for the great period of the 2300 days would be ascertained.

The date for the “going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem” is well-known and found in the book of Nehemiah. That following is a non sequitur because it is based upon a faulty premise.

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In the seventh chapter of Ezra the decree is found. Verses 12-26. In its completest form it was issued by Artaxerxes, king of Persia, 457 B.C.

Any decree or commandment found in the book of Ezra re Jerusalem limits itself only to the House of Gd/Temple and to certain governances; thereby, proving incorrect as used in establishing the beginning date for the Seventy-weeks prophecy.

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But in Ezra 6:14 the house of the Lord at Jerusalem is said to have been built "according to the commandment ["decree," margin] of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia." These three kings, in originating, reaffirming, and completing the decree, [ed.jasd]

The above is self-indicting: “the house of the Lord...”. The prophecy of Daniel 9 requires a decree or commandment “to restore and to build Jerusalem” – not the House of Gd/Temple therein Jerusalem.

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Taking 457 B.C., the time when the decree was completed, as the date of the commandment,

I remind: 457 BC dealt only with the House of Gd/Temple – not Jerusalem proper.

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...every specification of the prophecy concerning the seventy weeks was seen to have been fulfilled.

Absolutely not!—Daniel supplicated and prayed regarding all Israel, as well, the “oath that [is] written in the law of Moses”. Northern Israel had already been dispersed and not since been in view together with Judah. There is yet ‘the one week’ that has to be fulfilled in regard to both Joseph and Judah – together in view – else we might surmise that Gd is less than careful in the manner He responded to Daniel’s supplications and prayers...

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"From the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince...

Ahh, could Holy Writ have been more explicit!—“to restore and to build Jerusalem”. It is only the truly obstinate – who refuses to perceive and receive the prophetic words of Gd.

The House of Gd/Temple IS NOT the CITY JERUSALEM!—which is the nexus of the matter. Therefore, to exposit from the date extracted from the book of Ezra, addressing only the issue of the House of Gd/Temple, is not exegesis but wishful manipulation of the words of Gd – that a peculiar people might be manifested!—per the following:

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...shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks"--namely, sixty-nine weeks, or 483 years. The decree of Artaxerxes went into effect in the autumn of 457 B.C. From this date, 483 years extend to the autumn of A.D. 27. At that time this prophecy was fulfilled. The word "Messiah" signifies "the Anointed One." In the autumn of A.D. 27 Christ was baptized by John and received the anointing of the Spirit.

[jasd]

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"And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." The "week" here brought to view is the last one of the seventy; it is the last seven years of the period allotted especially to the Jews.

One might notice in reading verses one through twenty that the subject is, inclusively, all Israel and – not limited to the Jews. Of course, the proper and expected response from Gd would be predicated upon that fact. That being so,

I repeat: during the fulfillment of the first 69 weeks of the prophecy – the tribes of Northern Kingdom were not in view. Somewhere along the prophecy’s fruition both Kingdoms must be in view – or Writ depicts Gd improperly responding to Daniel; ipso facto, all Israel can only be in view during the yet to come final week of the Seventy-weeks prophecy.

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During this time, extending from A.D. 27 to A.D. 34, Christ, at first in person and afterward by His disciples, extended the gospel invitation especially to the Jews.

The above fails to consider the subject of verses one through twenty of Daniel 9; that is, all Israel, all the peoples of all the tribes – with especial emphasis Jesus Christ placed upon reaching the – “lost (or put away/divorced) sheep of the House of Israel”, that is, the dispersed of the Northern Kingdom of Israel – per the following...

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As the apostles went forth with the good tidings of the kingdom, the Saviour's direction was: "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 10:5, 6.

[jasd]

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"In the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." In A.D. 31, three and a half years after His baptism, our Lord was crucified.

Writ advises that “after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off”—not ‘after threescore and two weeks and three and a half days’. Moreover, the antecedent of the statement “In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease” is the “prince that shall come”—not Messiah (Dan 9:26).

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With the great sacrifice offered upon Calvary, ended that system of offerings which for four thousand years had pointed forward to the Lamb of God. Type had met antitype, and all the sacrifices and oblations of the ceremonial system were there to cease.

So, when did the Feasts ‘Trumpet, Atonement, and Tabernacles’ meet their Type?

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The seventy weeks, or 490 years, especially allotted to the Jews, ended, as we have seen*, in A.D. 34. At that time, through the action of the Jewish Sanhedrin, the nation sealed its rejection of the gospel by the martyrdom of Stephen and the persecution of the followers of Christ. Then the message of salvation, no longer restricted to the chosen people, was given to the world. The disciples, forced by persecution to flee from Jerusalem, "went everywhere preaching the word." "Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them." Peter, divinely guided, opened the gospel to the centurion of Caesarea, the God-fearing Cornelius; and the ardent Paul, won to the faith of Christ, was commissioned to carry the glad tidings "far hence unto the Gentiles." Acts 8:4, 5; 22:21.

*(?) [ed.jasd]

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Thus far every specification of the prophecies is strikingly fulfilled, and the beginning of the seventy weeks is fixed beyond question at 457 B.C., and their expiration in A.D. 34.

We must utilize a jaundiced, or critical, eye when encountering expositions developed by extracting from the book of Daniel before its unsealing. Anything developed prematurely, should, on the face of it,

be discarded as being false.

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From this data there is no difficulty in finding the termination of the 2300 days. The seventy weeks--490 days--having been cut off from the 2300, there were 1810 days remaining. After the end of 490 days, the 1810 days were still to be fulfilled. From A.D. 34, 1810 years extend to 1844. Consequently the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 terminate in 1844. At the expiration of this great prophetic period, upon the testimony of the angel of God, "the sanctuary shall be cleansed." Thus the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary--which was almost universally believed [among ALL early 19th century Christians] to take place at the second advent--was definitely pointed out.

Disturbingly similar to that proposed by Wm Miller – who later disavowed the entirety of the above. Disabuse me should we err.

[Musicman1228]

jasd said, "We must utilize a jaundiced, or critical, eye when encountering expositions developed by extracting from the book of Daniel before its unsealing. Anything developed prematurely, should, on the face of it, be discarded as being false."

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Any interpretation of prophecy before that prophecy is unsealed will be an erroneous interpretation. It is therefore incumbent upon us to find out and know when the 'appointed time of the end' is so we can know when those prophecies will be/were unsealed.

From my reading of the prophecies the decree issued in 457 B.C.E. was to restore Israel's national sovereignty with Jerusalem as it's capital city. God was inviting Israel to come back to Him as His bride and issued 70 x 7 years within which Israel would have to accomplish what God commanded them to prove their worth as His bride. This they did not do. The 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy of Dan. 8:14 began concurrently with the 490 year prophecy and I believe did end in 1844. It is at this time that God brought forth a new Kingdom of Heaven, one that would not be given to another people, and it is out of this people that the current and final Kingdom of Heaven now has come.

[jasd]

>>I wholeheartedly agree with this. Any interpretation of prophecy before that prophecy is unsealed will be an erroneous interpretation. It is therefore incumbent upon us to find out and know when the 'appointed time of the end' is so we can know when those prophecies will be/were unsealed.<<

And, of course, one agrees...

>>From my reading of the prophecies the decree issued in 457 B.C.E. was to restore Israel's national sovereignty with Jerusalem as it's capital city.<<

Several things: “Israel’s national sovereignty”? I think the “decree issued in 457 B.C.E.” addressed only Jews, yes?—whereas, Israel comprised yet many more tribes.

>>God was inviting Israel to come back to Him as His bride and issued 70 x 7 years within which Israel would have to accomplish what God commanded them to prove their worth as His bride.<<

I believe you err re “Israel”—however, per “God ... as His bride”, yes, we have no record that the Babylonian exile sufficed as a Writ of Divorce to the Kingdom of Judah.

>>This they did not do.<<

Indeed!—they were, once again, to suffer Desolations.

>>The 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy of Dan. 8:14 began concurrently with the 490 year prophecy and I believe did end in 1844.<<

Exact text, please.

>>It is at this time that God brought forth a new Kingdom of Heaven, one that would not be given to another people,<<

Well, I suppose that should one establish 457 BC as a terminus for both the Seventy-week prophecy and the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy – one might then be able to construct upon that framework...

>>...and it is out of this people that the current and final Kingdom of Heaven now has come.<<

Of course, I am constrained to disagree; that said, is the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of Gd two different Kingdoms?

[Dr. Rich]

I too wondered about the KOH being the same as KOG. Until I can be shown differently, it would appear that they are the same.

[Gerr]

To jasd & mm:

1. So when was the book of Daniel unsealed?

2. When does the the 2300 d prophecy start & end?

[wayfinder]

Just some observations from one who has studied these things for a long time.

As far as the sealed book; Daniel as a complete book is more than prophecy. This book contains the accounts of Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus (Daniel in the lion’s den). As I see it the only part of the prophecies given to Daniel that were sealed up until the end of days (age) is the prophecy in chaps. 10-12 and the rest were open for interpretation. Surely the prophecy of the seventy sevens (weeks) were not sealed up, for they applied specifically to the offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The misunderstanding of the prophecy in chp.8 lead to the event prophesied by the Son of God, as recorded by Matthew in chap. 25:1-13. It is clear to me that the event of the expected return of the Bridegroom was directly related to the 2300 eves and morns prophecy. The "Kingdom of heaven" (10 bridesmaids) expected the Bridegroom to return on a certain day (Oct. 22, 1844) this expectation was William Millers understanding which became the belief of the Adventist people.

The prophecy of Daniel 8 was beyond the understanding of Daniel, the prophet who had received the vision (see Daniel 8:27). Daniel 9 begins with Daniel's prayer for understanding (of the previous vision) and for the realization of God promise for restoration of Israel to the Promised Land. When the angel Gabriel comes to Daniel, he tells Daniel that seventy sevens have been determined/decreed for your people and your holy city. It is my understanding that this shorter timing was determined/decreed from the longer 2300 years timing; therefore the start date is identical for both. It is my understanding that God knows what we will make of the prophecies, how we will understand them. God does not hope we will understand He knows we will understand. God does make clear that only those with insight will understand, I pray for insight and I hope you do also.

[jasd]

Oh Oh Oh!—me so tired. Am moving my friend to the coast. Only two-three more loads and then she can carry-on with the small stuff in her car.

I haven’t been able heretofore, this week, to but quickly drop by and post the short and sweet. I’ve time this weekend to respond to Gerry Cabalo...

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Quote:Gerry Cabalo

To jasd & mm:

1. So when was the book of Daniel unsealed?

Though, humbly, a mensch, I’m no more than a simple Joe Schlub [/sotto voce], however, when lucky enough to have purchased a pair of tickets to seats in Orchestra or Loge at a premier musical venue – I am able to recognize that the Diva in Donizetti’s Lucia... missed the high ‘C’; or, same seats, another time – to know that the coloratura singing Brunhilde was unable to project past the powerful orchestration of Wagner – to reach Fourth Balcony; that Toscanini often accelerated the tempo when conducting...; etc. That said,

expositional dissonance, likewise, registers upon my receptor filters...

So, "when was the book of Daniel unsealed"?

How about?—not whilst the Medical Community were unaware of the efficacy of hygiene vis-à-vis germs? Or, not, whilst most of mankind was born, lived, and died within a twenty-mile radius?

Perhaps, it is that Daniel was “unsealed” when the PC became commonly available?—when we began to back-engineer UFOs?—when we first began to change times and laws with, per one example, control of the speed of light?—when

the Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS) reports that the first year of this new millenium (commonly accepted as such) approximately 600-hundred million domestic [American] passengers flew commercially – that works out to an average of about two flights per American in the Year 2000.

The above noted – certainly colors assertions that the book of Daniel was unsealed century, centuries, millenium, or millennia past.

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Quote:Gerry Cabalo

2. When does the the 2300 d prophecy start & end?

I believe that a careful read of Daniel 8 leaves one with several things: one, the 2300 days are literal days as opposed to a prophetic day/year reckoning. Second, the starting date seems yet future and is presently unknown. Third, it may hinge directly upon the last prophetic week of Daniel 9. Fourth, the ending date is probably somewhere approximating the Parousia. Etc. Etc.

[jasd]

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Quote:wayfinder

As I see it the only part of the prophecies given to Daniel that were sealed up until the end of days (age) is the prophecy in chaps. 10-12 and the rest were open for interpretation.

It is incontrovertible that that, which is in the book of Daniel self-explanatory, is not per se – ‘sealed’; however, we mislead ourselves to think that we’ve interpreted even the seemingly obvious. Gd commanded that the entire book be sealed – not portions thereof.

Perhaps, that is why those who should have known best – categorized the book of Daniel among the ‘histories’ – rather than among the prophets.

[jasd]

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Quote:Gerry Cabalo

To jasd & mm:

1. So when was the book of Daniel unsealed?

I’m requested to further explicate aspects of my response to Gerry Cabalo; I do so in greatly abbreviated form, following:

Daniel 12:4 is sufficiently explicit that the average reader forbears presuming upon Gd’s proscriptive, “...shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end:”

Obviously the book of Daniel is unsealed at the “time of the end”. Are there any indicators allowing that this or that is the “time of the end”?—I’d say so... But first, let me point out what I consider a weakness to

arguments that Daniel was ‘unsealed’ a century and a half ago, or earlier. Let’s look at Nebuchadnezzar’s ‘Image dream’. Though certain expositors of Writ may argue that it is self-evident – that the dream in Daniel was revealed, in entirety – not so...

It is my contention that Gd’s sealing of the book of Daniel is validated – in point – by those very expositors themselves – who, in presuming that Gd did not, in fact, seal the entirety of the book but only Chapters 11 and 12 (or some other purport)

present a vision of prophetic interpretation, which depicts

Gd, as haplessly, no more than caricaturist. Example:

the historical timeline places Nebuchadnezzar’s dream as having occurred at or about 604 BC. The head of gold, which signified the Babylonian Empire, endured a span of time from 604 BC until 539 BC – a period of about 65 years. The most long-lived empire of the image was Rome, which lasted from approximately 168 BC until AD 476 – a period of about 645 years.

The entirety of time spanned from 604 BC until AD 476 is – a period of 1280 years.

A man’s head, crown to chin, measures approximately 4/5ths the length of his foot. Yet, there is one school of prophetic interpretation which proposes that the period represented by the image’s feet extended from AD 476 onward for more than 1300 years, [gap], and continues... That exposition of Daniel 2 asserts, to effect, that Gd severely lacks a sense of proportion. I assert that Gd does have a sense of proportionality; in fact, in that the ‘head of gold’ endured for 65 years – the last kingdom depicted by the image’s feet – should/ought to endure for about 52 years – that Gd might not be thought as lacking, umm, an artist’s eye.

The above necessitates a gap, parenthesis, or lacuna between the ending of the Roman Empire and the beginning of the Last Kingdom*, which, ultimately, shall be broken – together with all the represented Kingdoms of the image – by a following Stone Kingdom, one cut from a mountain as though without hands...

Further, noticing that

/ Babylon was known for its accumulation of gold (Herodotus wrote that there was so much gold in the city that many entire buildings were sheathed in gold) and that it developed the fractional banking system practiced since (with notable exceptions) – bears marking.

a) The principal god of Babylon was the god of gold, Marduk.

/ Persia was known in history for its extensive use of silver – even to the King, when going to battle, wore a jewel-encrusted representation of a Ram’s head done in silver. Persia’s silver mines are still yielding silver today and are counted as some of the best bearing in the world.

a) Silver corresponds to the Moon, which, seemingly, is Islam’s principal god – for that “whereas, the Sun rules the day, the Moon rules both the day and the night”. (remember that – when struck by the stone cut without hand, all representations of the Image’s empires are still extant that they might be ground to dust – together)

/ Greece was known for its incorporation of bronze/brass into the everyday fabric of its culture – from its statuary, household utensils, armor, weapons, etc; in fact the very age of Greece is known as the Grecian Bronze Age.

a) The goddess Athena was the principal deity of Greece. Mythology holds that at her birth she emerged fully armored in bronze.

/ Rome obsessed over iron. When expanding its frontiers, particularly those in Europe, foundries were built and smiths began to smelt, mold, and hammer – iron.

a) Mars, god of iron, god of war – was a principal deity of Rome.

One assumes from the above dates that there occurs after the fall of Rome – a gap, a parenthesis – until the “time of the end”; when, clay is ‘introduced’ admixtured with the feet of the image.

/ Clay consists primarily of silicone and aluminum, two ingredients most representative of today’s technology and culture. Of course, silicone is most closely associated in our minds with microchips...

a) I don’t know of any god that might represent a technological empire by the signifier – clay. The closest might be the god Homo; that is, man, who was formed of humus/earth. There may be one, an ET, who will yet mingle with man – representing a very high state of technology. :-(

About 30 years ago, give or take, “The Signs of the Times” proffered a similar posit, which I have very loosely incorporated in the above, as paraphrase.

Should there be any credence to that proffered in this post, I add that I am inclined to believe that we have begun the age of “Iron mixed with miry clay”. Should that be so,

the Kingdom of Stone ought to be, if not already having crested the cusp – “nigh at hand, even at the door...”

[Dr. Rich]

The "Kingdom of Stone" is the SDA Church which is the same as the Ten virgins in Matthew 25 and to who the 7 messages in Rev. 2 and 3 is written for in order to let them know what is going one and who they are. No one else fits the description like the SDA Church does, and because they now are sleeping they have no idea who they are.

As to WHY in what jasd wrote, all of this is irrelevant to the clear understanding of truth regarding prophecy. The time to make this known is fast approaching.

[jasd]

>>The "Kingdom of Stone" is the SDA Church<<

Can I say it more kindly than – ya’think?

>>...which is the same as the Ten virgins in Matthew 25 and to who the 7 messages in Rev. 2 and 3 is written for in order to let them know what is going one and who they are.<<

The KOS/SDA church are synonymous in what manner of speaking? I see you asserting; however, it is sans exposition.

>>No one else fits the description like the SDA Church does, and because they now are sleeping they have no idea who they are.<<

I’ve heard it said that the “seven messages” were representative seven ‘ages’ of the NT church; yet I’ve also heard tell that the .Org is synonymous with Laodicea. So, is the .Org Laodicea or ten somnambulists?

“...fits the description like the SDA Church”?—the same .Org that made itself a creature of the State?—that is, Caesar?—despite the command of Holy Writ for the believer to render that which is Gd's to Gd only!?

Would not the assembly of Gd be His?-and not Caesar's?

>>As to WHY in what jasd wrote, all of this is irrelevant to the clear understanding of truth regarding prophecy.<<

I hold to the principle that when approaching prophecy – even the jots and tittles are relevant. It is surprising that you can take such a dismissive view re “the clear understanding of truth...”

So, in the particular, share your clear understanding of Daniel 2 vis-à-vis the ending of our age...

>>The time to make this known is fast approaching.<<

Why so cryptic? Please feel free to dress the framework of your assertions.

[Dr. Rich]

Do you agree that truth is singular and absolute? If not, then one could say anything they wanted and think it is truth.

Rules must be followed and knowing the rules is also a must. Also knowing the factual foundation is critical for the correct understanding.

Didn't Jesus make it clear in Matthew 24 that at the time of the coming like a thief, that there would be ONE person called 'the ONE servant left in charge of the Master's house and that this ONE person would be feeding the fellow servants at the proper time? Common sense tells us that this 'food' could NOT be the same 'food' that has already been given.

If this is so, then wouldn't it seem prudent to listen to what this person has to say because it just might be important? This ONE person could not be EGW for she is not with us anymore. It will have to be a person who is alive and living in the last generation.

Do you need more of a framework?

[wayfinder]

Daniel 2:34 NAS

"You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands,…

Matthew 25:1 "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

This is the appearance of the stone/SDA. What other, covenant keeping people, would be described by this event?( Matthew 25:1-5)

… and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them.

Revelation 11:15 NAS

[The Seventh Trumpet--Christ's Reign Foreseen] Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, " The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

This is the triumph of the stone/SDA/Kingdom of God

Daniel 2:44 NAS

[The Divine Kingdom] "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people ; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

Daniel 2:35 NAS

"Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors ; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

In the days of the kings/kingdoms of the “feet” this kingdom will appear, we are most definitely living in this part of the prophecy

Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals ; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God ; and they will reign upon the earth."

Daniel 7:13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.

14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away ; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

The above two texts are concerning the same event and were fulfilled with the appearence of the "stone"

......there will be more to follow....

[Dr. Rich]

WF, thanks for presenting the picture of the Kingdom of Heaven in the last days for us. For those of you who wish to be among the 144k, you might want to study up on this.

[jasd]

>>Do you agree that truth is singular and absolute?<<

Yes and no. Example: you and a Greek stand side by side above the Aegean – the Greek asserts the Sea is green – and you assert it is blue. Same Sea. Yet, given other conditions, the both of you would be wrong – example: a stormy sky, partially cloudy skies, churning oceans, etc – would change the color of the Sea. Goes to

apprehension, perception, cognition, distillation, etc.

Then there is, “In that day [...] ye shall surely die.” It can be understood to be true in part only. Though it is Gd speaking, there simply isn’t a sufficient framework whereby it may be unequivocally an ‘either or’ truth.

Etc.

>>If not, then one could say anything they wanted and think it is truth.<<

Yes and no. Is an angel spirit?—in what manner of speaking? Or does he/she/it have physicality?—as we understand physicality? Amorphous, mebbe?—truly? Seems, we may be unable to even define spirit – that we might discourse with the solid assurance of truth tandem our words.

>>Rules must be followed and knowing the rules is also a must.<<

Rules are sometimes no more than imagined, evanescent, or arbitrary fabrications. Sometimes, should rules be deemed mandatory – then it may, further, necessitate deciding upon which set of rules apply...

>>Also knowing the factual foundation is critical for the correct understanding.<<

“factual foundation” may sometimes be more numinous than tenable; yet at other times, it may be purely subjective, etc.

>>Didn't Jesus make it clear in Matthew 24 that at the time of the coming like a thief, that there would be ONE person called 'the ONE servant left in charge of the Master's house and that this ONE person would be feeding the fellow servants at the proper time?<<

Matthew 24:43-45 provides us with two examples: one/ the goodman of his own house, and two/ the servant who functions as a steward. Both are valid examples re actions advised for the times of destruction; that is, those times closely preceding the Parousia

(The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: ...)

>>Common sense tells us that this 'food' could NOT be the same 'food' that has already been given.<<

That, in large part, is my brief; especially, re the matter of preempting Gd re His sealing of the book of Daniel. Indeed, should it be unsealed at the end of time, it would have to be by definition – ‘new food’...

That having been said...

Matt 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe [which is] instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure [things] new and old

It may be a bit willowy to forward a ‘peculiar’ or particular confluence between SDAism and the end times – should that “fact” find its forte in that – SDAism arose during ‘the end times’ as possessing the word of knowledge or the meat of the word – where the same is absent in other .orgs.

Have I the gist of your preceding statements?

>>If this is so, then wouldn't it seem prudent to listen to what this person has to say because it just might be important?<<

I do listen to many sources; however, I’ve found that there are more sources than I time. And yes, it is a given that another person may have something important to say – that is why I listen. That said,

I spend more time in ‘topical’ studies; however, I’m a great believer that the good Lord orders our footsteps.

>>This ONE person could not be EGW for she is not with us anymore.<<

I believe that EGW had much to say that can be taken as important; however, moreso, in the pastoral sense. To take issue of EGW on a discursive level – didn’t she say that she would be among the 144,000?—and doesn’t SDAism hold to a doctrine that the 144,000 would be selected-out from the peoples just prior to the Parousia? That would

indicate two things of note to the .Org: one/ that EGW will have an early resurrection, and two/ that she might arise just in time to be that ONE person you reference.

>>It will have to be a person who is alive and living in the last generation.<<

Well, then...

>>Do you need more of a framework?<<

Yes, the established fact that the .Org is a/that faithful and wise servant – especially, when portrayed as cuttin’ zzzzzzzs..., like sorta, slipped me by.

I seem to recall that both Isaiah and Ezekiel had a bit to say on the subject of watchmen – Isaiah likened useless watchmen to useless dogs – with both he and Ezekiel declaring that the blood of the innocent will be upon them who did not sound a warning...

Can sleeping Laodicea be the last witness Gd calls upon at the ending of the age?—then again, there are those who would argue that it is the latter generation who is the object of the OT words, “Go not to Bethel (House of Gd) for it is full of lies and idolatry”?

[wayfinder]

It is not Laodicea that is sleeping, it is Sardis.

Revelation 3:1-3 "To the angel of the church in Sardis write : He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this : 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die ; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3 'So remember what you have received and heard ; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.

[jasd]

>>It is not Laodicea that is sleeping, it is Sardis.<<

That may be; however, Dr Rich and I were speaking to his post:

#358248 - 05/11/10 07:37 AM

Quote:

Quote:Dr Rich

The "Kingdom of Stone" is the SDA Church which is the same as the Ten virgins in Matthew 25 and to who the 7 messages in Rev. 2 and 3 is written for in order to let them know what is going one and who they are. [ed.jasd]

It may have slipped by you unnoticed.

Anyway,

/ the ten virgins slept

/ the .Org likens itself to Laodicea

hence, my brief aside re “cuttin’ zzzzzzzs..."

[wayfinder]

We will not be hearing from Dr. Rich until Aug., he was a naughty boy, he broke the rules.

The seven messages are specificlly for the KOS/SDA.

Lampstand=Kingdom of heaven

Seven lampstands, seven messages which address issues, characteristics or problems that need to be addressed before the kingdom is ready to fulfill it's purpose.

[Guest]

Whoever woulda thunk it?

Where does Lampstand=KOH? Just in your head or do you have some scripture to show?

[wayfinder]

The temple and it's furnishings are symbols that give us the understanding of the plan of restoration. The "heart" of the temple contains the covenant between God and His kingdom and priests, the "heart" of the temple is the Most Holy. The throne of God is represented as the "Table of the presence/shewbread", this table was on the North side, North is the place of God's throne.

Isaiah 14:13 NAS

"But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven ; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.

Directly across the room on the South wall was the lampstand with the seven branches. Moses was instructed to construct the bowls, within which the lights would burn, son that the lights would light the area in front of it; therefore the lampstand would shine it's light on the table of the presence or God's throne. The priests were to fill the lampstand with oil every morning and evening. The golden altar was in front of the Ark of the Covenant and was instramental in the atonement process, connection the people of God with the covenant. The kingdom of heaven is God's "light" to the world and therefore is represented as the complete light (truth), as represented by the golden lampstand. For reference see Zacariah 4 and Revelation 11.

Matthew 5:14,15 NAS

"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

[Guest]

He also said this:

Joh 8:12 Then spoke Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

And then there is this:

Rev 1:12,13 And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden lampstands; And in the midst of the seven lampstands one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girded about the breast with a golden belt.