Faith & The Resurection

[BobRyan]

Misses the point, though. You've done exactly as I described: used a text in the Bible to support the validity of the Bible. It's circular reasoning.

(will address the other question later, but I'd like to see a serious attempt at that one)

For many atheists - Dan 2, 7 and 9 have proven conclusively the supernatural origin of scripture and its reliability in predicting future events.

It is a simple exercise.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

The desire for immortality being confined to humanity is pretty easily explained by our being the only species with a real consciousness of time passing, and therefore the only species able to look forward to foresee our own death, and fear it.

The remainder of my question was not so much 'does the Bible teach immortality': I'm confident that it does. It was more about the veracity of the Bible itself.

I find your position perfectly logical and consistent given your position on evolution.

However every time I declare that to be a logical and consistent step along that path - I get complaints from a few evolutionists (unless of course we are talking about Dawkins, Provine, Meyers, Darwin..etc).

I never claim that it is an "immediate next step" - I just claim that it is a logical step if they stop and think about the implications of what they are saying (i.e. given enough time if they are seriously looking at the question).

And what is interesting is that national surveys show that Europe has experienced nearly 100% adoption of evolution by their general population and is now dwindled down to just 5% of the church attendance that they had in the 1950's - with the most common question among that still hanging-on 5% being "pastor - are you really sure there is a god?"

in Christ,

Bob

[Bravus]

Good old Bob. You can always, 100%, rely on him being bumptious, confident, voluminous and completely missing the point.

[BobRyan]

Bravus - I anticipated that your kind sweet comments might follow - but I am glad to have found this thread anyway.

The solutions I gave stand on their own - as it turns out, you need not feel as if I am trying to force you to read them. They are just there for the group to consider.

in Christ,

Bob

[Bravus]

No, you're just uttering death threats and calling me an atheist... have fun.

[BobRyan]

No, you're just uttering death threats and calling me an atheist... have fun.

Whahuh???

My reference to atheists - is a statement of fact about other people who have looked at Dan 2, 7 and 9 and come to solid conclusions about the reliability of the Bible. My assumption was that you are not atheist so seeing these guys "do the math" and being able to reach an objective conclusion - should surely be encouragement to a Christian.

Of course your "all is evil if Bob posts it" idea above - is an interesting spin for a short second.

---

Now back to a more substantive point that you made about evidence for God in real life ... during one of my visits to a church in India I asked the Adventist pastor there how they were able to evangelize in a population heavily slanted toward the Muslim side but also still about 50% Hindu. Muslims were hard to reach - but he stated that Hindus would gladly attend evangelistic series - but would not actually join the church until they "saw God do something" in answer to prayer.

Hindu visitors already had "a zillion gods" and they were looking for one that actually did something. The church was full.

The church had a mission school - 800 students. As I recall the school was about 90% Muslim.

in Christ,

Bob

[Dr. Shane]

the abuse she suffered in childhood has left her out of touch with her own emotions. (Hard to explain in detail, but trust me that it's a real phenomenon.)

[Bravus]

(apologies all - and yes, you too Bob - for being drawn into bickering. It's true that I get over-sensitive where Bob is concerned, and I should have been more gracious... we now return you to your regularly scheduled programming)

[Bravus]

I understand those points, Shane. I just think God gets off too easy. He makes some pretty clear and explicit promises, but then when they fail to be fulfilled we're all about making excuses and changing things around so that either it's our own fault or it's just Him 'moving in mysterious ways'. As I say, we end up redefining coincidence as divine intervention, and claiming that the small things are the evidence, when the claim has been that He will do great things. I asked in a thread here a while ago who has experienced a miracle, and mostly got things like surviving car accidents... which are notoriously fickle just in terms of physics and chance. There wasn't a single incontrovertible supernatural event.

[John317]

Quote:

Bravus: experience is not the same as emotion (one of your responses above seems to treat them as the same thing)

Yes, there is a diffence between emotion and experience. Experience includes how we see God leading us, which is a very important part of our Christian life. Having good experiences in worship, prayer, Bible study, witnessing, are all important and have a bearing on our view of our salvation.

[John317]

Quote:

Bravus: .. She is earnestly seeking God's face, being faithful and... nothing.

What do you mean "nothing"? What is she expecting to see or have happen?

[John317]

Quote:

Bravus: There wasn't a single incontrovertible supernatural event.

When you look back in your life, can you see any certain evidence of God's working or His presence and influence?

In 1980, my father was anointed by the local church just before he was to have surgery at LLUMC. He was very sick due to a ruptured appendix. He had been tested several times before the anointing, and they had found evidence of a serious infection. Immediately after the anointing, he was tested again, and it was discovered that there was no more evidencce of the infection. The surgeon, who had taken part in the anointing service, cancelled the surgery. God answered our prayers. I know the surgeon has no doubt, and I don't either. My father would go on after the surgery to work in the ministry for the next 20 years.

[Bravus]

...and my mother died of leukemia at 51, and my brother in a freak accident at 25: both of them fervent and faithful believers. And Sue is in the situation she is largely because her father, a church elder, sexually abused her as a child. Any faith needs to take these into account as well as those, and muttering about God's inscrutable purposes doesn't work. We can't credit him with the medical 'miracles' (which incidentally also happen to non-believers, and about as regularly) without blaming him for not stopping the medical disasters.

My point is that I want to believe, I am predisposed to believe, and Sue even more so, but there is *just no evidence* that does not require one to already believe before it is visible. That is, all of the evidence presented can be readily interpreted in natural as well as supernatural ways. That was *not the case* for the miracles reported in the Bible. So has God changed? Has he got weak? Has he decided not to do any more, or only to do them in the 3rd world?

This discussion may make me sound as though I'm desperately seeking and unhappy. I'm not, but Sue is. For me, I have relaxed into the fact that - as several of you have said - it's up to him to seek us. So far he hasn't sought me: when he gets around to it, I'm ready. As I say, in the mean time I will be the best husband, father, teacher, friend and member of society that I can, and that will have to do.

[karl]

I asked in a thread here a while ago who has experienced a miracle, and mostly got things like surviving car accidents... which are notoriously fickle just in terms of physics and chance. There wasn't a single incontrovertible supernatural event.

Yes, but seriously now. Do you actually want to believe miracles? If so, read "Angels at Pincher Creek." Some people get miracles. Most of us don't. Even in the time of Christ, most of them didn't get miracles.

[aldona]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

I asked in a thread here a while ago who has experienced a miracle, and mostly got things like surviving car accidents... which are notoriously fickle just in terms of physics and chance. There wasn't a single incontrovertible supernatural event.

Yes, but seriously now. Do you actually want to believe miracles? If so, read "Angels at Pincher Creek."

If someone is describing their disappointment at the fact that they (or a family member) are not experiencing miracles or other supernatural events despite sincerely seeking and praying for them...

And someone responds by drawing their attention to yet more miracles happening to other people...

...then that, to me, seems like a bad case of "rubbing their nose in it."

As someone else who has never experienced anything supernatural and has only normal life experiences to base faith on, I have been following this thread with great interest.

And there seems to be an awful lot of "breaking bruised reeds and snuffing out smoldering wicks" going on.

When someone shares about their difficulty hanging on to faith by their fingernails, let us not put the steel-capped boots on and kick their hands from the ledge.

At least when the apostle Thomas expressed his doubts, Jesus then immediately provided him with the information he needed in order to believe. Many people today go through their whole lives and get nothing.

AJ

[karl]

If someone is describing their disappointment at the fact that they (or a family member) are not experiencing miracles or other supernatural events despite sincerely seeking and praying for them...

And someone responds by drawing their attention to yet more miracles happening to other people...

...then that, to me, seems like a bad case of "rubbing their nose in it."

If you aren't interested in miracle stories, don't ask about them. Bravus wanted to know if anybody had experienced one. I haven't but I was trying to steer him to someone who has.

SORRY!

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

I asked in a thread here a while ago who has experienced a miracle, and mostly got things like surviving car accidents... which are notoriously fickle just in terms of physics and chance. There wasn't a single incontrovertible supernatural event.

If someone is describing their disappointment at the fact that they (or a family member) are not experiencing miracles or other supernatural events despite sincerely seeking and praying for them...

And someone responds by drawing their attention to yet more miracles happening to other people...

...then that, to me, seems like a bad case of "rubbing their nose in it."

[phkrause]

Yes, but seriously now. Do you actually want to believe miracles? If so, read "Angels at Pincher Creek." Some people get miracles. Most of us don't. Even in the time of Christ, most of them didn't get miracles.

Have to agree with Karl on this Bravus. I can remember some years ago when I first got married. We had gotten a bill, and I had a choice between paying this and paying our tithe. Without any hesitation we payed our tithe. We didn't sit down and pray about it or think I wonder if God's gonna do a miracle or not. Not sure what works or doesn't Bravus, I think each one of us has a way or place that God meets or communicates with us. I don't think that we can say for a fact why for one it seems he's always helping and for another he seems so very silent. But I do know that it says it the Bible that he will never allow anything to be to much for us, not really sure that that applies to this but I like that passage for many things. And to get back to the money we needed for the bill, the next day we got a check in the mail for the exact amount of our tithe. We did not expect anything, especially a miracle we had not ask for. I do know that most of the time when we really seem to want something really bad, it seems we get nothing. Right now I have been unemployed for 2+ years, have prayed my heart out, nothing!!! I would ask God for different signs everyday for a long time, nothing!! I figured that he wanted me to move to Florida to take care of my Mom, nothing!! It hasn't matter if I prayed for a job, selling my house, what ever it took to get to Florida. Well God has not answered that in any way that leads me to believe anything is gonna happen, so I finally retired and I'm still waiting, but maybe that's the problem, waiting for something that might or might not happen, so now I'm just letting it go which ever way its gonna go. I guess I've rattled on long enough Bravus, I pray all goes well with you and your wife's miracle.

pk

[Gail]

I also don't want to rub someone's nose in anything, but how can we answer Bravus' question in the positive without being perceived as doing so?

What one person sees as a miracle might differ from how another sees it...

This happened to me many years ago:

I was expecting my second baby and had planned to have a tubal ligation done at the time of my pre-planned Caesarean section.

Two days before my delivery date, this is how events unfolded:

I go into labour, something I was not permitted to do because of risk factors I have to having babies.

Because it was two days ahead of schedule, my chart had not yet arrived at the hospital. No one at the hospital knew anything about me, my history.

My regular GP was unavailable, as was my obstetician.

My HUSBAND refused to get out of bed to come with me to the hospital. He couldn't wake up and was incoherent and did not realise what was happening. Thus I called a cab and went down alone.

I get to the hospital and I knew enough to let Triage know that I'm in labour and I'm not allowed to be. This makes me a case for an emergency C-section. They wheel me up to prep for the surgery and try to find someone to do it.

The doctor on call wouldn't have gotten there on time...

They found a resident and he would do the surgery. He came in and between contractions I'm trying to answer what questions I can. The contractions are hard and I'm trying to focus on my body.

As it turns out, they give me a general anaesthetic. No one decided to ask me about the tubal, and once I was out it was too late. My husband would have told the doctor, if he would have been there.

The situation ends up with a safe delivery but no sterilization. The doctor who did the surgery asked me about it the day after. I was thankful that I was alive and the baby was fine, too.

Now I could look at this as a series of coincidences, but I don't. To me it seemed that there was just too much working against my plan to end my childbearing days. I look at that episode as Providential, and I tell my daughter (the one born afterwards) that she is a miracle child.

So yeah, I believe in miracles. I have no idea why and when they happen and to whom.

[Gail]

And relating to Sue's situation, Bravus, just because I regard my daughter as a "miracle" child did not save her also from a incestual experience. That is another story.

[Gail]

I agree with Aldona and Neil about not lambasting people for a lack of faith when things do not go miraculously. We are to do justice and love mercy, and treat people accordingly. Great Christians have gone without a miracle they can see or what they wanted to see. The "faith champions" in Hebrews 11 went to their deaths without having experiencing the promises given to them fulfilled.

We can know that strange and powerful things happen, but God only knows the why and how of when they are to happen. His miracles happen in more ways than just the showy ones. We have the Biblical accounts in order that we can believe in His power. How the Lord will bring His answers around, I cannot ever say.

[lazarus]

God needs to step up to the plate. He can, but will he?

He may not. He may not respond in the way you would like him to and he may never give an explanation. This is and always will be the real struggle of faith. Job and Ecclesiastes are tough books because the struggle is not neat and tidy.

Just some untidy thoughts.....

Moses asked to see God's face. God covered him with his "hand" and only allowed him to see his back. Moses was in closest proximity to God when he was in the darkness of the hollow of his "hand" . Sometimes we can only see God after he has passed by. It was months after my own struggles that I realized that he was there all along.

I've just finished listening to Frederick Douglas' narrative on his life. I really don't know how those slaves retained their faith in God when whipped and tortured by men who would go and sit in church on Sunday morning. There were slaves who lived their lives and died without the miracle of freedom but yet they sang songs of freedom. It was their singing that gave them freedom.

I have learned, as a Pastor, that sometimes silence is a better teacher, comforter and friend than many words, texts and explanations. I've sat at a bedside or two knowing that even scripture is not enough. I have to wait for God himself to come and minister. I know he will come. He always comes.

Even though we are thousands of miles apart I will sit with the both of you (Bravus and sue.)

Wait on the Lord!

[Dr. Shane]

I am not sure I believe in coincidences anymore. I have just seen too many of them for all of them to be coincidences.

The basic textbook of Alcoholics Anonymous was written in 1939. At that time, doctors would refer to severe alcoholics as the hopeless variety. Dr. Silkworth, a non-alcoholic, wrote a chapter for the book, entitled "The Doctor's Opinion". Dr. Silkworth was not a religious man but considered himself a man of science and logic. He stated that during his practice he had seen many alcoholics of the hopeless variety and they were all heartbreaking. In his experience, the only time he had ever seen one recover was when they experience a spiritual awakening. Although he didn't have much use for religion himself, he did have to acknowledge that it seemed to be the only hope for the hopeless alcoholic. In scientific terms, what the doctor was saying, is that it takes a divine miracle for a hopeless alcoholic to recover.

Myself, I don't think my disease ever progressed to the hopeless variety stage - although I am sure it would have. I have, however, seen many such hopeless alcoholics recover because of a spiritual awakening. It happens so often today it is not regarded as miraculous by the medical community. But was 70 years ago. God seems to be the only solution to alcoholism and He uses organizations like AA to reach those suffering from it.

Again, some can write everything off as coincidence. I have just seen too many coincidences to believe they are all coincidences.

[John317]

There are things that happen which can't possibly be explained as natural phenomena. Take the instance of a young woman who was a patient at Loma Linda University Medical Center. Three people-- a nurse, a doctor, and an SDA pastor-- saw her lifted up as if by unseen hands and thrown against a wall and down the stairs. I know the doctor, and one of the other witnesses. The event is described in a well-known book. I didn't see it myself, but I was working in the hospital at the time it occurred, and heard some of the Interns and nurses talking about it on the elevator shortly after it happened. The doctor was afraid to tell about it because he thought his medical license might be revoked if he did. But he was a very well known medical doctor. The woman's case had been recommended to the SDA pastor by psychiatrists because they didn't know how to help her, and they believed her problem was spiritual rather than physical or mental. They were right. She is now free of demonic possession. This event occurred in 1981.

[Neil D]

I didn't see it myself, but I was working in the hospital at the time it occurred, and heard some of the Interns and nurses talking about it on the elevator shortly after it happened.

I really don't believe that this is helping......

This is stuff that I was talking about....Unless you have DIRECTLY been involved, it is all filed under "anecdotal evidence".... Proximity doesn't count here unless you saw it personally.

As for coincidence not being "coincidence", again, that is a matter of opinion...

I have been involved in some things that worked out to my and other's benefit. And while I have mentioned it before, I am reluctant to put it forth as something classified as "divine intervention" or something of the supernatural or a miracle....It was public enough for the members who were involved, but even then, circumstances could be such that they were all that-coincidence...