Extra-terrestrial visions of EGW - what are we to make of them?

[abelisle]

Read the folowing from Early Writings p.39 and tell me if you think all of the details are literal or not:

"The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there [bEGIN P.40] warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. They bore the express image of Jesus, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place. I asked one of them why they were so much more lovely than those on the earth. The reply was, "We have lived in strict obedience to the commandments of God, and have not fallen by disobedience, like those on the earth." Then I saw two trees, one looked much like the tree of life in the city. The fruit of both looked beautiful, but of one they could not eat. They had power to eat of both, but were forbidden to eat of one. Then my attending angel said to me, "None in this place have tasted of the forbidden tree; but if they should eat, they would fall." Then I was taken to a world which had seven moons. There I saw good old Enoch, who had been translated. On his right arm he bore a glorious palm, and on each leaf was written "Victory." Around his head was a dazzling white wreath, and leaves on the wreath, and in the middle of each leaf was written "Purity," and around the wreath were stones of various colors, that shone brighter than the stars, and cast a reflection upon the letters and magnified them. On the back part of his head was a bow that confined the wreath, and upon the bow was written "Holiness." Above the wreath was a lovely crown that shone brighter than the sun. I asked him if this was the place he was taken to from the earth. He said, "It is not; the city is my home, and I have come to visit this place." He moved about the place as if perfectly at home. I begged of my attending angel to let me remain in that place. I could not bear the thought of coming back to this dark world again. Then the angel said, "You must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000, shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God." 41{EW 39.3}

White, Ellen Gould: Early Writings of Ellen G. White; Early Writings. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1882; 2002, S. 39

Is there an implication that sin can arise on other inhabitated planets and if so, what guarantees do we have that sin will never raise its ugly face again in Heaven?

Alex

[Dr. Shane]

Nahum 1:9 says, "What do ye imagine against Jehovah? He will make a full end: trouble shall not rise up the second time." If read literally, it seems to be talking about literal Nineveh and I think it was. However Nineveh was also symbolic of evil. At the time it was the capital of Assyria and had earlier been rebuked by Jonah. Many Biblical scholars believe Nahum 1:9 also means that God will bring an end to sin in total and sin will never rise again. I believe Ellen White held to that interpretation herself.

The tree being present on other planets simply goes to show that these other beings have free will. God has created beings with the ability to rebel. That does not mean they ever will. I would especially doubt any other created beings would rebel after seeing what has happened on our planet.

[Dr. Rich]

Alex, do a search on the internet on Paul's Revelation and read what he wrote about his own trip to the third heaven as found in 2nd Cor. 12. Then compare what Paul saw and wrote about with what EGW saw and wrote about. Kinda makes one wonder a little bit!

[John317]

Quote:

abelisle: Is there an implication that sin can arise on other inhabitated planets and if so, what guarantees do we have that sin will never raise its ugly face again in Heaven?

Yes, sin could have arisen on those other planets. God allowed Satan to do on those other planets what God allowed Satan to do on earth-- tempt the inhabitants to disobey God. But none of them did choose to disobey God, but they chose instead to obey Him, and to reject Satan.

Ellen White says that once God saw that those inhabitants rejected Satan, God no longer permitted Satan access to those worlds. God would have done the same on this earth had Adam also rejected the temptation to sin.

You can be sure that after all the universe has seen the sacrifice of Christ, God's amazing love, and know God's way is best, no one will have a desire to rebel against God.

[John317]

Quote:

Dr. Rich: ...Paul's Revelation... read what he wrote about his own trip to the third heaven as found in 2nd Cor. 12. Then compare what Paul saw and wrote about with what EGW saw and wrote about.

Tell us your thoughts on this. What exactly do you see that makes you "wonder a little bit"?

[abelisle]

Alex, do a search on the internet on Paul's Revelation and read what he wrote about his own trip to the third heaven as found in 2nd Cor. 12. Then compare what Paul saw and wrote about with what EGW saw and wrote about. Kinda makes one wonder a little bit!

This is what the SDA Commentary says about the different "heavens."

"Third heaven. Or, “paradise” (v. 4; see on Luke 23:43). The first “heaven” of Scripture is the atmosphere, the second is that of the stars, and the third the abode of God and heavenly beings. Paul was “caught up” to the presence of God"

Nichol, Francis D.: The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 6. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1978; 2002, S. 920

I'm not sure how and where F. Nichol go this info but I have information that the planet with seven moons is one of a few in our solar system that are relatively close by but that we can't see (think dark matter or something akin to that):

"You should consider the statement about "heaven" and the "heaven of heavens." The heaven conceived by most of your prophets was the first of the mansion worlds of the local system. When the apostle spoke of being "caught up to the third heaven," he referred to that experience in which his Adjuster was detached during sleep and in this unusual state made a projection to the third of the seven mansion worlds. Some of your wise men saw the vision of the greater heaven, "the heaven of heavens," of which the sevenfold mansion world experience was but the first; the second being Jerusem; the third, Edentia and its satellites; the fourth, Salvington and the surrounding educational spheres; the fifth, Uversa; the sixth, Havona; and the seventh, Paradise."

Urantia Book p.553

Dr. Rich - you might find this revelatory book quite interesting. Check out their site http://www.truthbook.com to peruse/read the book online. I find it illuminates many Biblical questions I've had. But it requires an open mind. It sort of like reading EGW for the first time.

Alex (now watch how many people are going to think I'm a crackpot!

[phkrause]

Is there an implication that sin can arise on other inhabitated planets and if so, what guarantees do we have that sin will never raise its ugly face again in Heaven?

Alex

I don't think so Alex! As Shane has already quoted from the Bible on this and I believe in EGWs writings she mentions that as other worlds rejected Satan they have been watching the drama here on earth and have seen what sin has done. I don't think we will want to go through this again.

pk

[jasd]

Rev 22:2 ...and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

What's that!? I thought that all the nations had already done been healed, yes?--sounds as though the action is both the present and future progressive tense... Should that be so,

there is an anticipation of yet further healing: for whom?--and when?--how often? Oh yeah, 'future progressive' ongoing...

until all shall come into the knowledge of Gd's saving grace?

Well, what else might one expect from 'bowels of mercy', which exceedeth even those of an earthly father!

Universalism? Oh my...

[wayfinder]

jasd, Why not ask why there needs to be a tree of life in heaven and the earth made anew. So this is wayfinder's understanding, I could go into a whole dissertation about why there are nations living outside the city (see Rev. 21:24) etc. In the heavens and the earth made anew, there are three groups of people. One group is the 144,000(priests). The second group is the kingdom of God, these two groups were sealed before the trumpets. The third group is the nations; these are the "numberless multitude" that were sealed during the trumpets. In the beginning God created mankind as mortal beings; this is why the Tree of Life was in the garden of paradise. As long as one has access to the Tree of Life they will live forever, but they are not eternal beings. The leaves of "the tree" are for the healing of the nations (numberless multitude), but not for the 144,000 and the saints, they are eternal beings as God is eternal.

[Kevin H]

They see what is happening here. The tree is just an outward manisfestation of what is going on inside of us. I am free to smoke a cigerett any time I want, I have never smoked and I doubt I ever will, from my background that has not been a temptation, but I always have freedom. God will never take away freedom from us and will have people who have learned to choose not to eat from the wrong tree.

[mrsducky]

jasd, Why not ask why there needs to be a tree of life in heaven and the earth made anew. So this is wayfinder's understanding, I could go into a whole dissertation about why there are nations living outside the city (see Rev. 21:24) etc. In the heavens and the earth made anew, there are three groups of people. One group is the 144,000(priests). The second group is the kingdom of God, these two groups were sealed before the trumpets. The third group is the nations; these are the "numberless multitude" that were sealed during the trumpets. In the beginning God created mankind as mortal beings; this is why the Tree of Life was in the garden of paradise. As long as one has access to the Tree of Life they will live forever, but they are not eternal beings. The leaves of "the tree" are for the healing of the nations (numberless multitude), but not for the 144,000 and the saints, they are eternal beings as God is eternal.

Could you say more about your understanding of 3 groups of saved? I have never considered a difference beyond the 144,000 being a separate group and everyone else in the other group? Thanks.

[jasd]

>>Why not ask why there needs to be a tree of life in heaven and the earth made anew.<<

I did. I asked, "What's that!?"

>>One group is the 144,000(priests).<<

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father;

All of us: the 144,000 nowhere in view this text.

"Healing" implies a need for a therapeutic specific, yes?

Who is yet sick in the earth made new, when Gd dwells with man?—and, are the nations mentioned those already within the city or its vicinity?—or are they “nations” not yet there but are presently – elsewhere?

And, what is the function of the ‘saved’ priests?—but to minister? To Gd? ...don’t think so. There is much bruited within this .Org that the ‘saved’ have no need for/of priests...

And, hmmm, yes, "outside the city" - the dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and - liars.

Outer darkness, mebbe? What?

>>...but not for the 144,000 and the saints, they are eternal beings as God is eternal.<<

You mean that the saved - with the exception of the 144,000 - still have no assurance from the the threat of the second death sans the leaves of the tree? Should that be so, then

Christ and Him crucified was not as fulfillingly salvific as supposed, yes?

[wayfinder]

Quote:

Christ and Him crucified was not as fulfillingly salvific as supposed, yes?

Do you really want me to answer that?

There are three groups in heaven and the earth made anew. First group=144,000 these are the priests.

Revelation 5:10 NAS

"You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God ; and they will reign upon the earth."

A kingdom and priests (two groups). This is the same situation that has always been since there was a kingdom (12 tribes=kingdom, tribe of Levi=priests).

Revelation 3:12 NAS

'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore ; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name

Message to Philadelpha is a message to the 144,000. When you not the promise to this group (name of the Father, Jesus new name written on their foreheads). See the 144,000 group on Mt. Zion, Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

The third group are the nations, those who headed the first, second and third "angels" messages (yet future) and are depicted as standing around the sea of glass before the throne, also the depicted as the multitude that no one can count, in Rev. chp.7.

[mrsducky]

sorry I asked

[John317]

Quote:

wayfinder:... In the beginning God created mankind as mortal beings; this is why the Tree of Life was in the garden of paradise. As long as one has access to the Tree of Life they will live forever, but they are not eternal beings. The leaves of "the tree" are for the healing of the nations (numberless multitude), but not for the 144,000 and the saints, they are eternal beings as God is eternal.

Doesn't God give the gift of immortality to the saved at the Second Coming?

You say "as long as they have access to the Tree of Life," as if there's a possibility that they won't always have access to it. Do you have any idea how often they would need to eat from the Tree of Life?

[doug yowell]

sorry I asked

At CA, one has to be careful what one asks for,sometimes they get more than they bargained for.Welcome, mrsducky.

[skyblue888]

Nahum 1:9 says, "What do ye imagine against Jehovah? He will make a full end: trouble shall not rise up the second time." If read literally, it seems to be talking about literal Nineveh and I think it was. However Nineveh was also symbolic of evil. At the time it was the capital of Assyria and had earlier been rebuked by Jonah. Many Biblical scholars believe Nahum 1:9 also means that God will bring an end to sin in total and sin will never rise again. I believe Ellen White held to that interpretation herself.

The tree being present on other planets simply goes to show that these other beings have free will. God has created beings with the ability to rebel. That does not mean they ever will. I would especially doubt any other created beings would rebel after seeing what has happened on our planet.

Amen.

sky

[wayfinder]

Quote:

wayfinder:... In the beginning God created mankind as mortal beings; this is why the Tree of Life was in the garden of paradise. As long as one has access to the Tree of Life they will live forever, but they are not eternal beings. The leaves of "the tree" are for the healing of the nations (numberless multitude), but not for the 144,000 and the saints, they are eternal beings as God is eternal.

Doesn't God give the gift of immortality to the saved at the Second Coming?

You say "as long as they have access to the Tree of Life," as if there's a possibility that they won't always have access to it. Do you have any idea how often they would need to eat from the Tree of Life?

John317, Just to make clear my understanding on this as I see it. There are three groups of people in heaven and the earth made anew. This is not a new idea or concept from the Bible, because as long as there has been a kingdom of heaven on earth this is how it has been presented.

Isaiah 2:1-5 The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills ; And all the nations will stream to it. And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob ; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples ; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war. Come, house of Jacob, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

The lifetime of a righteous mortal is very long, at least as long as the pre-flood mortals, about 1000 years. God, through Isaiah tells us that the lifetime of a righteous mortal is as the days of a tree, which can be as long as 4000 years or more.

Isaiah 65:22 NAS

"They will not build and another inhabit, They will not plant and another eat ; For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people, And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.

[Gerr]

If you believe she was a prophet, then treat her extra-terrestial visions just like you would the Apostle John, Paul, or Isaiah.

[BobRyan]

Rev 22:2 ...and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

What's that!? I thought that all the nations had already done been healed, yes?--sounds as though the action is both the present and future progressive tense... Should that be so,

there is an anticipation of yet further healing: for whom?--and when?--how often? Oh yeah, 'future progressive' ongoing...

until all shall come into the knowledge of Gd's saving grace?

No such thing as "being converted by eating leaves" as it turns out.

Adam and Eve had nerves, an immune system, skin etc. They had the tree of life. The leaves were for healing.

This is not rocket science.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

When satan appears as stated in 2Thess 2- along with his demon helpers mentioned as "frogs" in Rev 16 - who knows if they will not claim to be from "Other worlds" - more advance races etc.

This would be a lie-close-to-the-truth as they prefer - since in fact they are an advanced created race of beings not from this world.

in Christ,

Bob

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Rev 22:2 ...and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

What's that!? I thought that all the nations had already done been healed, yes?--sounds as though the action is both the present and future progressive tense... Should that be so,

there is an anticipation of yet further healing: for whom?--and when?--how often? Oh yeah, 'future progressive' ongoing...

until all shall come into the knowledge of Gd's saving grace?

>>No such thing as "being converted by eating leaves" as it turns out.<<

???—try rereading my quote. You’ll have to forgive me for not answering directly: for the life of me, I cannot see how you’ve arrived at the nonsensical “converted by eating leaves”. Sorry.

>>The leaves were for healing.<<

That most cursory reading of my quote – arrives at that thematic construct, which attempted to address the question of ‘further healing” – ...for whom?—when?—how often? Etc.

>>This is not rocket science.<<

Are we even on the same page?