International finance gets curiouser and curiouser, Alice.

[karl]

Investors have gone from being nervous about small banks (the S&L crisis of the ’80s) to being nervous about big banks to being nervous about non-bank financial institutions to being nervous about small countries. [Greece]

The next steps are obvious. The worry will spread to medium-sized countries like Italy and Britain and then to the biggest of all: the United States.

Obama has left us vulnerable to these concerns with his huge and unnecessary budget deficit. With our debt now exceeding 80 percent of our GDP (it was 60 percent when Obama took office), we are hostage to speculators and nervous investors. In 2011, we may well experience the same kind of international jitters that now bedevil Greece and find our hand forced by an international consensus, just as Athens’ has been.

-----------

Hmmm. Imagine the lamb-like beast involved in an international financial consensus which forces our hand.

To speak as a dragon?

Article here: http://thehill.com/opinion/columnists/dick-morris/97335-athens-woes-headed-our-way

[bonnie]

Investors have gone from being nervous about small banks (the S&L crisis of the ’80s) to being nervous about big banks to being nervous about non-bank financial institutions to being nervous about small countries. [Greece]

The next steps are obvious. The worry will spread to medium-sized countries like Italy and Britain and then to the biggest of all: the United States.

Obama has left us vulnerable to these concerns with his huge and unnecessary budget deficit. With our debt now exceeding 80 percent of our GDP (it was 60 percent when Obama took office), we are hostage to speculators and nervous investors. In 2011, we may well experience the same kind of international jitters that now bedevil Greece and find our hand forced by an international consensus, just as Athens’ has been.

-----------

Hmmm. Imagine the lamb-like beast involved in an international financial consensus which forces our hand.

To speak as a dragon?

Article here: http://thehill.com/opinion/columnists/dick-morris/97335-athens-woes-headed-our-way

You think?? Nah, We have been assured that Obama wants only the best "for his sheep"

[Dr. Shane]

I think this kind of speculation is getting a bit out of hand. Let's remember that it is the American Protestants with the European Catholics who are going to pass the National Sunday Law. Both are currently broke. So are we expecting China to come, bail everyone out and force the world to worship.... aahhhh... wait a minute... China is atheist communism. How does that work with the Sunday law?

[karl]

Four things to consider:

First, there is the fact that just behind Greece awaits several other European countries in equally fragile predicaments. Collectively they are now being referred to as the PIIGS, which stands for Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain. Even if the European Central Bank can bail out Greece, there's no way it can also shoulder the load for the other, much larger countries.

Secondly, these events demonstrate that the PIIGS, along with other developed nations, have been borrowing beyond their means. Just as the U.S. banks discovered, too much debt is as dangerous. Their situation is made worse by the fact that they have exploded their national debt in order to prop up their banks and their floundering economies.

Third, the value of the common European currency, the Euro, is crashing and probably will not survive very long — certainly not in its current state. A bad case of financial chaos may very well be the dominant situation in Europe. That would have the effect of making their goods much more competitive than American goods, thus threatening to forestall the U.S. economic recovery.

Fourth, these events are reminding everyone that the financial crisis is hardly over. We are now facing a contagious global sovereign debt crisis, which is feeding a massive case market anxiety around the world.

What is happening in Greece matters to us because America is on a similar economic and financial path. Imagine the reaction if Washington announced sharp cuts in government programs including Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, and or cuts in the salaries, benefits and pensions of federal government workers. Imagine the reaction if the rest of the world stopped buying our national debt and if the Treasury Department was forced to dramatically increase interest rates, thereby making our debt burden unsupportable.

It is astonishing that Washington is now adding on new entitlement programs, just as the European social welfare model is collapsing. If we stay on the course we're presently on, we may very well be forced to endure some of the same measures that Greece is now taking. We need to balance the budget by CUTTING government spending and growing the economy. We can do it now, in an orderly manner or later in a panic. But we will ultimately have to do it.

[bonnie]

I think this kind of speculation is getting a bit out of hand. Let's remember that it is the American Protestants with the European Catholics who are going to pass the National Sunday Law. Both are currently broke. So are we expecting China to come, bail everyone out and force the world to worship.... aahhhh... wait a minute... China is atheist communism. How does that work with the Sunday law?

Could you be more specific as to 'getting out of hand".

Would you also give a little information as to how all this with

American Protestants with the European Catholics

It seems obvious from your objection to this topic(as in going to far) and what some of us may believe that you do not believe the government will play a distinct role in end time events or that there will be economic havoc as we have not seen.

Can you take us thru what you know will lead up to persecution.

Obviously the bible I have been reading is incorrect if you are right

[Dr. Shane]

Could you be more specific as to 'getting out of hand".

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Could you be more specific as to 'getting out of hand".

Imaginations running wild.

Originally Posted By: bonnie

It seems obvious... that you do not believe the government will play a distinct role in end time events

Ellen White has a great book called the Great Controversy. I pretty much agree with everything in it.

I was thinking of that book along with other instruction we have been given. Your answer really is not an answer. I was hoping that you would be willing to explain what role government may play at the end. Or will they? Will we just be dealing with the religious faction?

Can you point out "where imaginations have run wild"

Given that there are numerous individuals,highly educated,much more than education than you have, in this country that have a fear of what Obama is doing,is this true of them as well?

[bonnie]

Just a question on this......American Protestants with the European Catholics who are going to pass the National Sunday Law.

How will this take place. Can American Protestants with the European Catholics pass the Sunday law or will they need the cooperation of the government? Or will they act independent of the government.

[Dr. Shane]

I think the book The Great Controversy will answer all of those questions. Unless I am mistaken, I don't believe their is a chapter on Ronald Reagan or Barak Obama.

[bonnie]

I think the book The Great Controversy will answer all of those questions. Unless I am mistaken, I don't believe their is a chapter on Ronald Reagan or Barak Obama.

Interesting response or lack of one. I really have no idea how Ronald Reagan got into this. Another diversion from the acts of Obama perhaps.

Unless I am mistaken there has not been any claim that biblically or in the Great Controversy there is a specific name mentioned.Only acts that some will put into practise.

You are so direct with your opinions on who is cold hearted and will not have eternal life it seems strange you don't have a opinion on what is taking place in the US at Obama's direction or globally for that matter.

[bonnie]

I think this kind of speculation is getting a bit out of hand. Let's remember that it is the American Protestants with the European Catholics who are going to pass the National Sunday Law. Both are currently broke. So are we expecting China to come, bail everyone out and force the world to worship.... aahhhh... wait a minute... China is atheist communism. How does that work with the Sunday law?

The above sounds as if you are diverting attention again away from the topic.

Tell me what the following means. Obviously Karl,myself and others have it wrong.

Who is going to speak like a dragon? Who is the lamb like beast?

Hmmm. Imagine the lamb-like beast involved in an international financial consensus which forces our hand.

To speak as a dragon?

[Dr. Shane]

What doesn't make sense is that a broke USA and a broke Europe is somehow going to force a Sunday law on the world when the only part of the world with money (the Middle and Far East) are not Christian.

What seems much more plausible is the a wealthy USA and a wealthy Europe will force a Sunday law on the rest of the world as a condition of trade agreements.

[bonnie]

What doesn't make sense is that a broke USA and a broke Europe is somehow going to force a Sunday law on the world when the only part of the world with money (the Middle and Far East) are not Christian.

What seems much more plausible is the a wealthy USA and a wealthy Europe will force a Sunday law on the rest of the world as a condition of trade agreements.

I am not sure I understand the above.Are you saying at the time of tribulation that the US will have a strong economy again? I think that during strong economic times it will be harder to enforce something like the Sunday law.When people are content and confident they are not to interested in more government regulation.

During tough economic times people are more apt as they are now to look to the government as their savior.

I could be wrong of course but isn't there a little something about economic chaos and blaming christians

[Dr. Shane]

There are a certain group of Adventists that interpret every current event as being a sign of the end. They are very much like the boy that cried wolf. Reagan came, left, got alzheimer's and died without ever becoming the anti-christ. The boy cried wolf but there really wasn't any wolf at all. Many lost faith and will burn in the fires of hell because of those that were so sure that Reagan was the anti-christ.

Then it was the market crash of 1987. It was the Berlin Wall falling down. It was Clarance Thomas. It was the Gulf War. It was President Clinton. It was Waco. It was the Oklahoma City bombing. It was the first bombing of the World Trade Centers. It was tensions in Iraq. It was Monica Lewinsky. It was George W. Bush. It was 9/11. It was warrentless wire-tapping. Now it is Barak Obama. It is the current recession. The sky is falling. Jesus is coming. People get ready!!!

This type of alarmism bring ridicule on our movement.

[bonnie]

There are a certain group of Adventists that interpret every current event as being a sign of the end. They are very much like the boy that cried wolf. Reagan came, left, got alzheimer's and died without ever becoming the anti-christ. The boy cried wolf but there really wasn't any wolf at all. Many lost faith and will burn in the fires of hell because of those that were so sure that Reagan was the anti-christ.

[Dr. Shane]

Never heard that Reagan was the anti-christ,nor do I know anyone that lost their faith because he wasn't.

Well, I do get around a little more than others do so I guess I am not surprised that I am a little more informed.

Indeed, many will get excited with this current Obama-is-fulfilling-Bible-prophecy phenomenon. When it fails to pass, they will get discouraged and give up believing altogether.

[bonnie]

Quote:

Well, I do get around a little more than others do so I guess I am not surprised that I am a little more informed.

But not enough to clarify your statement and answer the question apparently.

Quote:

Indeed, many will get excited with this current Obama-is-fulfilling-Bible-prophecy phenomenon. When it fails to pass, they will get discouraged and give up believing altogether.

Somehow no matter the very high opinion Obama has of himself and that those like yourself have,Obama the anti-christ or not probably is not enough to give up believing altogether.

There are people that do seem to worship at his feet and in time they may join the body of unbelievers. Time will tell

[bonnie]

Maybe we can try this again.......

I am not sure I understand the above.Are you saying at the time of tribulation that the US will have a strong economy again?

During tough economic times people are more apt as they are now to look to the government as their savior.

I could be wrong of course but isn't there a little something about economic chaos and blaming christians

_________________________

[Dr. Shane]

I pretty much agree with the book "The Great Controversy". I am one of the old-fashion Adventists.

[phkrause]

I pretty much agree with the book "The Great Controversy". I am one of the old-fashion Adventists.

I agree Shane, if we are really interested in what the events will be as this world comes to an end, the GC is that book.

But I have to agree with Bonnie that financial vows are more adapt (sp) to bring on problems for SDAs than not. I haven't read the GC in some time but from what I recall I believe this is one issue that is brought out. Obviously there will be many factors, and I agree we can't be crying wolf at every turn either.

pk

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: Shane

I pretty much agree with the book "The Great Controversy". I am one of the old-fashion Adventists.

I agree Shane, if we are really interested in what the events will be as this world comes to an end, the GC is that book.

But I have to agree with Bonnie that financial vows are more adapt (sp) to bring on problems for SDAs than not. I haven't read the GC in some time but from what I recall I believe this is one issue that is brought out. Obviously there will be many factors, and I agree we can't be crying wolf at every turn either.

pk

If anyone can look at the events taking place world wide,many of the actions of our president and feel that concern is crying wolf at every turn,then we are not reading the same play book.

Shane doesn't seem to be able to answer a straight forward question in a straight forward manner.He has set himself up as more informed than others so I would think he could answer this.

He is the one that said......a wealthy USA and a wealthy Europe will force a Sunday law on the rest of the world as a condition of trade agreements.

I don't remember that in the Great Controversy. Yet Shane says that is what shapes his belief.

I don't think there is any law that says the GC has to be the answer for everyone. But Shane has said it is pretty much the answer for him. So why the sliding around a answer. Or is that the result of being a moderate?

Some pretty harsh statements has been made concerning others.

It would be interesting to see what has made Shane more informed than others.

Of course there are other factors,that doesn't negate the economic one.

I do not believe that we will wake up tomorrow and have a sunday law. This country is still free enough that americans would not tolerate it. By the time we get to that point, the Sunday law will become law without a whimper as man looks to the government to save him. This country will be so conditioned it is going to be a great idea.

As my dad instructed us as children,don't worry about outsiders,worry about those sitting in the pew that will throw the doors wide open.

[Dr. Shane]

I haven't read the GC in some time but from what I recall I believe this is one issue that is brought out. Obviously there will be many factors, and I agree we can't be crying wolf at every turn either.

pk

The issue isn't whether or not there will be an economic crisis. The issue is whether or not it is the current economic crisis.

The Great Depression occurred after Ellen White's book The Great Controversy was published. FDR's New Deal increased the size of government to unprecedented levels. He increased taxes and tried to pack the Supreme Court. I am sure there was a group of Adventists screaming from the mountain tops that it was the end of the world.

Then we had a post-war recession after WW2. Again I am sure there was a small group of Adventists crying that it was the end of the world.

The Mid-East oil crisis sent the world into an economic crisis in the 1970s and early 1980s. "The end is here" cried some Adventists. But the end did not come.

Now we have another economic crisis and out comes the boys crying wolf again. The end is here. The end is here.

[bonnie]

Ever play dodge ball?

You seem to be unable to answer the question.

[karl]

The assertion that God's judgments are visited upon men for their violation of the Sunday-sabbath, will be repeated; already it is beginning to be urged. And a movement to enforce Sunday observance is fast gaining ground. {GC88 579.1}

This movement is almost certainly to be foisted upon the public based on an economic or energy consumption basis. Bonnie is correct in her observation that this loss of liberty will be brought about in difficult times - as a reaction to a crisis.

Anyone who does not know that the world - right now - is in a horrible financial crisis brought on by socialism and its accompanying deficit spending is simply not awake.

We're now spending money on a scale that no one has ever seen before. In history we've seen this happen just before the fall of Rome, where government raided its treasuries in order to grow a bigger bureaucracy. That's now happening in the United States. We have to reverse course immediately or it could mean the sinking of our civilization.

Socialism historically does a horrible job of helping the poor. It temporarily seems to help, but after all the wealth of a country has been pilfered it ultimately leaves the poor much worse off than they were before. And we now have the advantage the people a century ago did not have of actually seeing socialist systems in operation. Socialist systems utterly failed in the Soviet Union and in Eastern Europe. Socialism in Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Italy and Spain are threatening to unravel Europe's economy as I write this. If you think the US will survive the collapse of Europe's economy you have clearly NOT been paying attention.

Wake up.