Excellent article in the Review about the "Emerging Church..."

[olger]

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2010-1516&page=16

The emerging church is a rapidly growing phenomenon that is consuming both churches and lives. Might be good to be aware of what is going on.

og

[SivartM]

I think the main reasons people are so afraid of the emerging church is because of the emphasis on experience (which is bad, apparently) rather than on absolute doctrinal correctness, and the changing traditions (which are apparently all Catholic) as opposed to our Adventist traditions (which are based on Protestant traditions, which are based on Catholic traditions). Are we still using "Catholic" as a scare word?

I think Adventists are also scared is because our old proof texts aren't working anymore and people aren't automatically taking the Bible as an authority (well, duh, since they don't believe in it in the first place; maybe you should give them a rational reason to). We don't know how to communicate our beliefs without taking verses out of context. We don't know how to talk about beliefs with people who don't believe in the Bible without interrupting every comment with, "But the Holy Inspired Scriptures of God say...". We don't know how to sympathize with people who think differently and admit that they can believe in the Bible and simply have a different interpretation without being absolute relativists.

People aren't listening to good old-fashioned fire-and-brimstone preaching and teaching anymore and we don't know what to do.

[olger]

I kinda had you pegged as an emergent disciple. Why are you defending it so? You are too young to have much of any experience with historical trends, and the stuff you read seems to come from one agenda only. Why is that?

consider,

og

[SivartM]

I'm not an emergent disciple, I'm a disciple of Jesus.

I don't think age has much to do with ability to understand historical trends. Most historical trends happened before you were born also.

The reason I "defend" the emergent movement is because people are scared of it and there's no reason to be. It's just another episode of the church. It's the direction in which the church is going and, really, we ought to be ahead of the rest of the church, not behind it.

What is my agenda? I suppose that I have one, I just don't know what it is. I don't know why "agenda" is still a scare word either. Everyone has an agenda unless they're 100% cold and scientific and only make absolutely verifiable statements (in other words, they say nothing at all). So I guess... rocks don't have an agenda. But I'm not going to listen only to rocks.

[Tom Wetmore]

Maybe the problem is with your pegging system...

Why do you peg people?

[olger]

"The reason I "defend" the emergent movement is because people are scared of it and there's no reason to be. It's just another episode of the church. It's the direction in which the church is going and, really, we ought to be ahead of the rest of the church, not behind it."

I wrote this one down, along with the date.

og the scribe

[olger]

Tom, you going to Atlanta?

[SivartM]

"The reason I "defend" the emergent movement is because people are scared of it and there's no reason to be. It's just another episode of the church. It's the direction in which the church is going and, really, we ought to be ahead of the rest of the church, not behind it."

I wrote this one down, along with the date.

og the scribe

Why? :\

[olger]

Patience, young one.

[SivartM]

Is it to thrust into my face when the emergent movement transforms into an egregious apostasy, so that I will be humbled by my lack of discernment and bow to your judgment forever and always?

Am I close?

[Guest]

Am I close?

No I don't think you are. In more ways than one.

Sometimes if one will listen they can learn. It's been done before.

I like #5

http://www.hopevideo.com/media_with_samuel_koranteng-pipim-2.htm

[olger]

It should alarm committed Seventh-day Adventists - what other Christians are saying about Adventists & the emerging church. For instance this Lighthouse Trails article:

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=1510

og

[karl]

Is it to thrust into my face when the emergent movement transforms into an egregious apostasy, so that I will be humbled by my lack of discernment and bow to your judgment forever and always?

Am I close?

No.

You are impudent.

[doug yowell]

It should alarm committed Seventh-day Adventists - what other Christians are saying about Adventists & the emerging church. For instance this Lighthouse Trails article:

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=1510

og

OUCH!!

[karl]

While Selmanovic says he includes Christians in this interspiritual dream for the world, he makes it clear that while they might be included, they are in no way beholders of an exclusive truth. He states:

Quote:

Is our religion [Christianity] the only one that understands the true meaning of life? Or does God place his truth in others too? Well, God decides, and not us. The gospel is not our gospel, but the gospel of the kingdom of God, and what belongs to the kingdom of God cannot be hijacked by Christianity.

Hmmm.

If Christianity doesn't have the Truth, it can't be Christianity. If other religions have the Truth, they ARE Christianity.

Wasn't it Christ Who said that trying some other way (other than Christianity - other than through Christ) was only attempted by thieves and robbers?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Is it to thrust into my face when the emergent movement transforms into an egregious apostasy, so that I will be humbled by my lack of discernment and bow to your judgment forever and always?

Am I close?

No.

You are impudent.

My thoughts exactly. But you have a way with words karl.

[Guest]

The emerging church has been making inroads into Seventh Day Adventism as it has in most of “religion in the Western world.” Roger Oakland, in his book Faith Undone, discusses Samir Selmanovic, a Muslim turned-Seventh Day Adventist pastor-turned emerging figure:

Samir Selmanovic … has some interesting and alarming views on Christianity. He states:

The emerging church movement has come to believe that the ultimate context of the spiritual aspirations of a follower of Jesus Christ is not Christianity but rather the kingdom of God…. to believe that God is limited to it [Christianity] would be an attempt to manage God. If one holds that Christ is confined to Christianity, one has chosen a god that is not sovereign. Soren Kierkegaard argued that the moment one decides to become a Christian, one is liable to idolatry.

__________________________________________

John 14:6 Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved...

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

[Gail]

I was going to mention Roger Oakland as well. He is alarmed as to what is happening in his church, which I think is some type of Pentecostal. It was interesting for me to watch his take on the situation.

Meditation is a big part and it isn't the Biblical meditation of pondering a text. It is the mantra type that is found in New Age.

I welcome discussion on this, as I am just learning as well.

[John317]

Quote:

olger:http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2010-1516&page=16

Below is a paragraph that particularly caught my attention. My wife's whole family is Roman Catholic and my wife herself was Catholic when we got married. I used to accompany her to Mass. She became SDA almost without my encouragment-- simply by reading things I left around the house and then finally going to church with me. That was about 20 years ago. But only a few weeks ago, she told me that at the local SDA church, the minister did something that made her feel like she was back in the Catholic church. It was first time she ever said anything like that. But what did it was that our relatively new Adventist pastor, who is hispanic, blessed the pews with oil and prayed over them, which is what they do in the Catholic church. I had never heard of an SDA pastor doing that before. She said the pastor announced during the church service that he had blessed all the pews so everyone can now relax and not worry about anything. I plan to go talk to him about it and find out what reason he had for doing it.

Quote:

In addition, we also need to remember that because the charismatic and Roman Catholic worship styles operate on the same philosophical and theological assumptions, rituals are seen as mediating the presence of God to the worshipper. No wonder, then, that emergent evangelicals see no objection to following Roman Catholic spirituality, not only in private spiritual disciplines, but also to enhance the appeal of their public worship services to a wider postmodern audience craving to experience God directly and not through Scripture. The emerging church is going back to Rome. If we continue to play follow the leader, new generations of Adventism will go back to Rome, as well.

[doug yowell]

[ it was that our relatively new Adventist pastor, who is hispanic, blessed the pews with oil and prayed over them, which is what they do in the Catholic church. I had never heard of an SDA pastor doing that before. She said the pastor announced during the church service that he had blessed all the pews so everyone can now relax and not worry about anything. I plan to go talk to him about it and find out what reason he had for doing it.

Quote:

In addition, we also need to remember that because the charismatic and Roman Catholic worship styles operate on the same philosophical and theological assumptions, rituals are seen as mediating the presence of God to the worshipper. No wonder, then, that emergent evangelicals see no objection to following Roman Catholic spirituality, not only in private spiritual disciplines, but also to enhance the appeal of their public worship services to a wider postmodern audience craving to experience God directly and not through Scripture. The emerging church is going back to Rome. If we continue to play follow the leader, new generations of Adventism will go back to Rome, as well.

Things are getting more bizzare each passing week. Let us know what his answer was.(And relax, don't worry about anything) Does one have to sit in one of the oiled pews to be able to experience this blessing?

[Guest]

(And relax, don't worry about anything) Does one have to sit in one of the oiled pews to be able to experience this blessing?

You better believe it. That's why he blesses them.

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Is it to thrust into my face when the emergent movement transforms into an egregious apostasy, so that I will be humbled by my lack of discernment and bow to your judgment forever and always?

Am I close?

No.

You are impudent.

Maybe "imprudent".

Sorry I was snarky. Let he who never says anything unsavory throw the first verbal stone.

I just really don't see why people are so afraid of the "emerging church". There is no requirement that one has to adopt Catholic or New Age traditions. I very much admire Samir Selmanovic for actually getting to know people who believe differently without acting like they're stupid.

[Guest]

just really don't see why people are so afraid of the "emerging church". There is no requirement that one has to adopt Catholic or New Age traditions.

No there is no requirement, but since that is exactly what it is, how do you engage in it without adopting it? And why would you even try?

Kinda like:

"No! You don't have to stop calling yourself a vegetarian. Don't even think it! Here, have some more of this good pork.

[SivartM]

Since even emergents have trouble defining the emerging church, it's interesting how people outside the movement are so sure of what it's about.

[Guest]

Since even emergents have trouble defining the emerging church, it's interesting how people outside the movement are so sure of what it's about.

Most of the people who are involved, and think it is a good thing, and see no harm in it, don't even really know what they are into. They don't have a clue. And that comes partially from being willing to follow someone else, instead of studying for yourself. I've never met one, (and I have met some of them) who said: Yeah, I know what it is, but I like it anyway.

Normally if they are honest hearted people, (and most are) they are shocked when you start pointing these things out to them. But an experience, especially with those who don't study, will override anything that the Bible may say about it. That's why it is so hard to get people to come out of spiritualism. Because what they have seen and experienced, is real. You should know this. Satan surely does, and he uses it.

Like I said before: If one can listen one can learn. Perhaps you are not able, but it has been done by others before you.

I like #5

http://www.hopevideo.com/media_with_samuel_koranteng-pipim-2.htm