Bravus prepares himself for the flood of retractions and apologies...

[Bravus]

From the comments on that site:

"This is a simple case of geography. Melt ice to a record low summertime extent and you then can freeze a record amount of ice in the subsequent fall. Of course, your replacing metres thick once permanent ice with very thin seasonal ice and as a result the volume is a fraction of what it was.

This change is exactly as expected under global warming and will continue for a period while the Arctic switches from a perennial ice regime to a seasonal ice regime."

If you read the article, not the just the headline, and look at the graph, the record ice increase shown is seasonal, and is *not* adding up to a record increase in ice season-on-season. In fact, the author of the article clearly acknowledges: "Certainly the 30 year arctic trend in ice area is downward".

[Bravus]

I don't have a lot more time to spend on arguing this: I'm busy corrupting the youth of the nation with my socialist global warming propaganda writing a textbook chapter on matter, energy and earth systems.

[Woody]

Oh brother ... we don't need any more socialist global warming propaganda floating around here. We already have more than enough.

[phkrause]

Oh brother ... we don't need any more socialist global warming propaganda floating around here. We already have more than enough.

I have no problem with all giving opinions on what they believe, but when we start saying that our opinion is better than yours than I have a problem. The reason that I am more liking to take Bravus' side on this is because he teaches science, I believe! I also believe we can all go to any website and get info that's to our liking. I've seen now for many years the melting of the caps, North and South. So this is not propaganda. Obviously both sides have what they believe is right. We need to except that no one is completely right or wrong.

[karl]

Global Warming? New Data Shows Ice Is Back

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:55 AM

By: Phil Brennan

Are the world’s ice caps melting because of climate change, or are the reports just a lot of scare mongering by the advocates of the global warming theory? Scare mongering appears to be the case, according to reports from the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) that reveal that almost all the allegedly “lost” ice has come back. A NOAA report shows that ice levels which had shrunk from 5 million square miles in January 2007 to just 1.5 million square miles in October, are almost back to their original levels.

Moreover, a Feb. 18 report in the London Daily Express showed that there is nearly a third more ice in Antarctica than usual, challenging the global warming crusaders...

--------------

Go to the National Ice Center archives and punch in whatever year you are interested in. You can see that ice fluctuates dramatically and that this year is actually a pretty stable one.

http://www.natice.noaa.gov/products/ice_extent.html

[Neil D]

If you are actually intersted, Neil, read this and get back to me.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/02/03/arctic-sea-ice-increases-at-record-rate/

You must actually examine the data rather than merely looking at the conclusions drawn by those who are funded by the promoters of global government (er, I mean warming.)

Ok, let me get this straight...You site a website to give evidence that Global warming ain't happening....I look at that site and it says just the opposite of what you are propounding...Now, you want me to look at a site that interprets the site that we just looked at, and yes, it does some scientific interpretation....but from what I read, he's not actually out there doing the measurements. He's sitting in his office saying that some things are relevent and some things are not...IOWs, HE DOES THE INTERPRETATION, and not the scientist that is close to the data...

I don't understand this stuff, Karl, but obviously, your guy who interprets the stuff that you sited isn't really involved in the process of real science...He's a bean counter....He picks and chooses his data....

Sorry, Karl...You man isn't relevant.....

[phkrause]

Ok, let me get this straight...You site a website to give evidence that Global warming ain't happening....I look at that site and it says just the opposite of what you are propounding...Now, you want me to look at a site that interprets the site that we just looked at, and yes, it does some scientific interpretation....but from what I read, he's not actually out there doing the measurements. He's sitting in his office saying that some things are relevent and some things are not...IOWs, HE DOES THE INTERPRETATION, and not the scientist that is close to the data...

I don't understand this stuff, Karl, but obviously, your guy who interprets the stuff that you sited isn't really involved in the process of real science...He's a bean counter....He picks and chooses his data....

Sorry, Karl...You man isn't relevant.....

Good post Neil. This was exactly my point in my post above. We can go to any website and find what we need to prove our version of global warming or not.

[Bravus]

From the ice extent data site karl pointed us to, I simply recorded the annual maxima and minima for the 20 year period 1989-2009 and graphed the results:

The overall trend is extremely clear: I've included the equations of the trendlines and the R^2 values to show the correlations. The annual maxima are falling, slowly, the annual minima are falling quite dramatically.

That's what the data say.

[Bravus]

(incidentally, the rapid annual growth rates karl was quoting are easily explained when looking at this graph: the maxima and minima are getting further apart, so the ice extent has to grow more rapidly from minimum to maximum. Of course, that also means it shrinks more rapidly from maximum to minimum...)

[Neil D]

teehe

[karl]

OK Global warming acolytes:

While it may seem useful to plot arctic ice maxima and minima in an effort to urge people to freak out about the climate and submit to global energy thuggery, a little perspective is now in order.

It is estimated that if all the earth's ice were to melt, the seas would rise 230 feet.

We KNOW that if there is a significant loss of earth ice, such as global warming enthusiasts are claiming, the seas will rise. The seas are not rising.

I know, I know, the hystericists claim that the sea IS rising, but it isn't. Even casual observation will tell you this, but if you really want to know the truth from a scientific viewpoint, read this interview with the world's leading expert on the subject.

http://www.climatechangefacts.info/ClimateChangeDocuments/NilsAxelMornerinterview.pdf

The vast majority, almost 90 percent, of Earth's ice mass is in Antarctica where the ice mass is measurably growing, while the Greenland (arctic) ice cap contains 10 percent of the total global ice mass. The Greenland ice cap is so large it averages about 5,000 feet (1,500 meters) in thickness, but can be as thick as 14,000 feet (4,300 meters). The ice is so heavy that the land below it has been pressed down into the shape of a bowl.

There is no significant loss of ice on this planet. Things shift around. There are currents and fluxes which move things from one area to another.

2007-2008, which was supposed to be absolutely catastrophic for arctic ice, was a year marked by record snowfalls and low temperatures elsewhere on earth. China had its coldest winter in 100 years. Baghdad saw its first snow in living memory. North America had the most snowcover in 50 years, with places like Wisconsin the highest since record-keeping began. Record levels of Antarctic sea ice, record cold in Minnesota, Texas, Florida, Mexico, Australia, Iran, Greece, South Africa, Greenland, Argentina, Chile -- the list goes on and on. No more than anecdotal evidence, to be sure. But then all four major global temperature tracking outlets (Hadley, NASA's GISS, UAH, RSS) released updated data. All showed that over the previous year, global temperatures had dropped precipitously.

Time to exercise a little faith in the God Who made all this and Who foresaw our day. He put forces to work that we don't completely understand (and some we are probably still unaware of) which are taking care of our needs and will continue to do so.

[SivartM]

Time to exercise a little faith in the God Who made all this and Who foresaw our day. He put forces to work that we don't completely understand (and some we are probably still unaware of) which are taking care of our needs and will continue to do so.

No need to worry about disasters, famines, pestilences, and those seven plague things...

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Time to exercise a little faith in the God Who made all this and Who foresaw our day. He put forces to work that we don't completely understand (and some we are probably still unaware of) which are taking care of our needs and will continue to do so.

No need to worry about disasters, famines, pestilences, and those seven plague things...

What good would it do you to worry about the judgments God is bringing on the earth, Sivart? If you're afraid of them, you're on the wrong team. If you cannot trust God to keep you and provide for you in spite of these things which His Word foretells, what have you got?

We have not been given a spirit of fear. The "Chicken Little" fear mongers are not from above.

[SivartM]

By "no need to worry" I meant, "these things are obviously false because God will take care of us".

[phkrause]

Karl, not sure I understand your problem with bravus stating things about global warming? He's not crying the sky's falling. Just giving the rest of us something to think about. I for one have no problem with that. I also, and so do many others, have faith in God to take care of us, but nothing wrong with letting others know that things are changing in this world and its not for the better that's for sure.

[karl]

I also, and so do many others, have faith in God to take care of us, but nothing wrong with letting others know that things are changing in this world and its not for the better that's for sure.

Seriously, PK? No changes for the better, eh? Do you not like medical care? Supermarkets? Modern utilities and sewage systems?

You want to go back to squatting around a fire in a loincloth? What level of third world do YOU think we should return to?

That's what this is all about, you know. It's about shutting down the factories in the developed world so that third world countries can catch up.

It's just international Marxism. Let's make everyone the same.

Let me tell you what will happen if these global government gurus have their way. Any producer that's still got any money will simply move to a country in which it is OK to burn fossil fuels - countries which don't have to pay carbon taxes.

We're already complaining about the exportation of jobs, and if the Libs have their way, that process will increase exponentially.

Is that what you want?

[SivartM]

I don't know, karl. Do you not like the environment and the life it contains? Do you want everyone to die? Do you want little puppies to cry as they waste away in the desert?

Or are you not an extremist (like Bravus and pkrause are)?

Of course it all comes down to money...

[karl]

Thanks.

[bonnie]

I don't know, karl. Do you not like the environment and the life it contains? Do you want everyone to die? Do you want little puppies to cry as they waste away in the desert?

[SivartM]

Puppies are not born in the desert typically. Doubtful that all will die or any that matter as per this discussion.

[phkrause]

"And I doubt that pkrause and Bravus hate modern technology and want us all to live in caves."

Absolutely correct Sivart. I would say that Bravus and I and some others love technology more than most. But if you read between the lines you'll see that it has nothing to do with global warming or any other environmental stuff at all.

[karl]

You guys keep patting each other on the back, but not with too much intensity because we don't want that energy expenditure to translate into global warming.

[bonnie]

Quote:

Er... I was not serious about karl wanting all life to die. You know that, right?

No actually I am not sure. Generally those that do not believe the man made global warming hype are accused of just that.

Quote:

Really? So that's what all that "financial plan" stuff was about! I'll have to let my parents know about this; they probably have no idea either.

What you think you know today concerning all that financial stuff is nothing compared to what you will end up knowing.

Quote:

1. Take a persons argument to an extreme: If the argument is about environmentalism, assume the person you’re talking to wants everybody to live in the woods and heat their tents with hemp oil. It will be much easier to attack them if you take their ideas to an extreme rather than contend with a more balanced view.

Once you read the cap and trade bill and where they intend to go with that you may not be so dismissive of concerns as to what it will do to the economy.

[Bravus]

Karl made a claim about what is happening with arctic ice. I showed, simply, clearly and with data from a source he himself had recommended, that his claim was plain wrong. Did he correct his claim? No, he went off into a rant about a whole variety of other issues, leavened with absurd claims about the claims and the goals of myself and others. Where is the respect for the data and the truth?

Well, the thread title is satirical, of course, and this exchange is a perfect illustration for it.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

If you feel you need to lie or exaggerate to convince others you are correct,nothing you say is valid.

Um...

So basically I shouldn't believe anything that anyone says, right?

:)