On Pie, and Games with Non-zero Sums

[Bravus]

(repurposed from my blog)

I think it’s a massive blind spot that both ‘conservatives’ and ‘progressives’ fall into (oops, mixed metaphor).

The ‘pie’ of wealth and resources in the community is very unevenly shared. The wealthiest couple of percent of the population have the vast majority of the pie, the middle class share a small slice amongst a large number, and the poor get almost none.

Progressives say ‘that’s unfair! - the wealthy ought to give up some of their slice so that the poor can have some!’. Conservatives in some ways should agree - the wealthy could stand to share more with both the middle class and the poor - but they have this secret belief that they, too, could become the wealthy, so the privileges of the privileged must be protected at all costs[1]. Then they scream about confiscatory taxation and libruls coming to forcibly take away their slice of the pie. This paragraph, it seems to me, encapsulates an enormous proportion of all contemporary political discourse.

But there’s a simple solution: bake another pie! And another and another! It’s *not* a zero-sum game. It’s *not* necessary that for someone who is currently losing to start winning, someone who is currently winning needs to start losing. The sum total of global wealth has grown enormously in the past couple of centuries. We can argue about whether that growth has kept pace with the growth in population, but in general, there are plenty of new pies being baked daily.

Now, given the current arrangements, the very wealthy will probably own the majority of the new pies too. And the poor will have almost none. But almost none of 100 pies is better than almost none of 1 pie.

So, I’m arguing, both the progressives’ demands for fairer slicing and the conservatives’ defense of the current slicing arrangements in large part miss the point… there’s just more pie, and we can make even more[2].

1. Yes, I’m slightly caricaturing their belief structures for effect: I’m sure Mark will be along in a minute to straighten me out!

2. Yes, there are issues, and major ones, about the dependence of the current baking enterprise on fossil fuels, and the general environmental impact and sustainability of policies of constant expansion. But in general I’m an optimist about the ways in which we can use technology to address those issues.

[there buster]

Congratulations on discovering production.

[Stan]

So what will it take to get you two to stop commenting to each other, be it good bad or ugly?

What is it going to take?

[abelisle]

Ooops!

I thought this was about pie as in apple, peach etc.

then I thought it was about pi=3.1417.........

then I realized it was about politics

can't always get what you want

Alex

[Bravus]

Stan: I'm fairly sure I very rarely comment on Ed's posts at all, and when I do it's not the snarky one-liner, but I'm 100% happy to say I'll never comment on his posts again.

Just for Alex:

How do you calculate the circumference of a sheep? Shepherd's pi.

[Neil D]

And what do you call a pie that every italian can partake of?

Peat-sa pie [pizza pie]

[abelisle]

Ha ha

Did you get my last line? It was really a political "pie" statement

Alex

[Bravus]

But if you try sometimes, you just might find: you get what you need.

[there buster]

A person can take offense or not. My comment was sincere. By way of contrast, Obama and his counselors are still stuck on distribution, as if all that was required was to slice the pie differently. They take the pie for granted.

Recognizing that someone or some group of people have to produce the pie is a giant step forward from the usual.

Take away too much from the producers, reduce their incentives, and they cease to produce. Or in the current US situation, increase uncertainty about the costs of production, or increase the risks, and production languishes. Pies aren't being produced very fast. And as Bravus notes, that means those with the smallest pieces always suffer the most.

So I repeat. Discovering production is a big deal these days. I wish more people would make the discovery.

[Amelia]

Quote:

How to you calculate the circumference of a sheep? Shepherd's pi.