Use Your Freedom/Identify

[Bravus]

We know from the 'How safe is your forum?' thread that many of us do feel safe here - especially those not in denominational employ.

I think what the 'moving on' thread I started shows is that there are *lots* of us - more than we might imagine - who have various unorthodox views. There's strength and courage in numbers, and it's unhealthy for us all to hush our mouths lest we be scorned.

I was going to post the full list of wordings of the 27 28 Fundamentals, but that's a bit long for a forum post. Here's a link: http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

I'm going to create a short form in my next post that others can copy and paste for their own contributions to the thread. Then I'll write my own document reacting to the 28 - affirming what I can, challenging where I must.

The goal of this thread is not to undermine Adventist beliefs, or attack and argue the Fundamentals. It is simply to show each other our areas of similarity and difference, and reassure us that we're not alone in a hostile time.

[Bravus]

1. Holy Scriptures

2. Trinity

3. Father

4. Son

5. Holy Spirit

6. Creation

7. Nature of Man

8. Great Controversy

9. Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ

10. Experience of Salvation

11. Growing in Christ

12. Church

13. Remnant and Its Mission

14. Unity in the Body of Christ

15. Baptism

16. Lord's Supper

17. Spiritual Gifts and Ministries

18. The Gift of Prophecy

19. Law of God

20. Sabbath

21. Stewardship

22. Christian Behavior

23. Marriage and the Family

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary

25. Second Coming of Christ

26. Death and Resurrection

27. Millennium and the End of Sin

28. New Earth

[Bravus]

Gotta teach now, will be back in a couple of hours...

[phkrause]

Gotta teach now, will be back in a couple of hours...

Have a great day, and don't be a stumbling block for your students.

[Bravus]

Oh, I'm a *very* good influence on my students! I'm in a secular university, so religious topics rarely come up. Mostly I teach about teaching: and what I teach is that 'we teach out of who we are'. To be a good teacher, it is first necessary to be a good person.

When religion does come up it's in my science course, and is as part of a lesson on dealing with issues of science and religion in public and private schools. I don't indoctrinate them in any particular position, but work with them on being sensitive to the wide range of student and parent views, and on being able to be honest about their own views without inappropriately indoctrinating their students.

Anyway, on with it.

[Bravus]

1. Holy Scriptures

General agreement, but the word 'infallible' is a problem for a number of reasons. The fundamental belief itself does not really institute a literalistic mode of interpretation, but this is one of the areas in which the new President has placed a large stamp.

2. Trinity

Full agreement

3. Father

Full agreement

4. Son

Full agreement

5. Holy Spirit

Full agreement

6. Creation

Probably don't need to say much here.

7. Nature of Man

General agreement, but I would place greater or more balanced emphasis on the remaining good in humans from creation, rather than the emphasis on the fallen nature found here.

8. Great Controversy

General agreement, though the Flood is tossed in and I find no evidence for that.

9. Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ

Full agreement

10. Experience of Salvation

Full agreement - though I would like to see more evidence of santification in myself and others

11. Growing in Christ

Full agreement

12. Church

Full agreement - and this one refers to the entirety of the Christian church, not just the SDA church. How dare we bash other Christians, including Catholics, in the light of this belief and its supporting Scripture?

13. Remnant and Its Mission

OK as it stands, but implicitly the remnant is identified as the SDA denomination, where I believe it is/will be drawn from many parts of the broader Christian church... and that many SDAs are not/will not be members.

14. Unity in the Body of Christ

Excellent fundamental that tends to be honored in the breach. Women's ordination is just one example.

15. Baptism

Full agreement

16. Lord's Supper

Full agreement

17. Spiritual Gifts and Ministries

Full agreement - would be nice to see more made of spiritual gifts and ministry and less of nominating committee politics and service under duress...

18. The Gift of Prophecy

Prophecy is one spiritual gift among the many and has been given to the church throughout history. Identifying it as EGW and limiting it to her is an attempt to limit God. He can't be limited, but his plans can be damaged.

19. Law of God

Similarly, limiting the law of God to the 10 Commandments minimises all later revelations, including Jesus' own extensions in the Sermon on the Mount and his other teachings.

20. Sabbath

Full agreement - but in the light of Jesus's statements about who it was made for and that it's not meant to be a burden

21. Stewardship

General agreement but the identification of official church coffers as the 'storehouse' is IMO unscriptural and dangerous. Giving is crucial, good stewardship is crucial, but the Holy Spirit needs to be free to tell believers what to give to.

22. Christian Behavior

Health message good, but the focus should be on what actually promotes health, not on a set of traditions and prohibitions. Similarly for clothing and adornment (yep, that old shibboleth jewelery!). This statement "This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty" worries me. Does my Christian 'unblack' metal meet this standard? I believe so, most of you probably disagree. How do we distinguish Christian taste and beauty from personal taste?

23. Marriage and the Family

Huge supporter of marriage and the family, blissfully happy husband and father. The sting of all the anti-gay stuff is implicit here, and is one huge issue for me. Not just an SDA one, of course: *lots* of Christians have that particular hangup.

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary

Nope, sorry. Post hoc rationalisation for the Great Disappointment, with a very long chain of dodgy assumptions as its foundations. There are other issues as well, but that'll have to do for now.

25. Second Coming of Christ

Full agreement

26. Death and Resurrection

Full agreement

27. Millennium and the End of Sin

Pretty good agreement, but the whole pre-, post- and amillenial thing seems like a detail within eternity, so I can't get too exercised about it.

28. New Earth

Full agreement

Just one more reminder: this is not the thread for arguing about the details of these beliefs. If you want to do that, start your own thread.

As much as anything else, this thread is to affirm that the vast majority of what constitutes the actual gospel is common ground for us...

[Gerr]

What? Bravus, you are more conservative that I thought!!! And if you believe that God is the Creator of life, even if you don't believe it was done within the last 6k yrs, you are definitely in the middle, IMHO. So don't even entertain the idea about "moving on", unless to "the eastside" like Jefferson. Now if I could just make you see how necessary the IJ is to explain the separation of the tares from the wheat, the kernel from the husk, the foolish from the wise, the stage players from the genuine, presumption from faith, we'd be peas in the same pod!!! :):)

[olger]

Why keep the Sabbath while questioning the event that defines its observance ?

g

(#6 and #20 are literaly connected).

[SivartM]

I'm sure someone will use this against me in the future, but I love surveys...

1. Holy Scriptures

Agreed.

2. Trinity

Agreed.

3. Father

Agreed.

4. Son

Agreed.

5. Holy Spirit

Agreed.

6. Creation

Agreed, except that I'm open to the possibility that the creation story or its timeline might not be 100% historically factual.

7. Nature of Man

Agreed. I especially like that they added the part about the environment.

8. Great Controversy

Agreed.

9. Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ

Agreed.

10. Experience of Salvation

Agreed.

11. Growing in Christ

Agreed.

12. Church

Agreed.

13. Remnant and Its Mission

Agreed, but I don't think that the Adventist church itself is the remnant.

14. Unity in the Body of Christ

Agreed. Hm... "differences between...male and female, must not be divisive among us."

15. Baptism

Agreed.

16. Lord's Supper

Agreed, but I still think foot washing is kind of gross.

17. Spiritual Gifts and Ministries

Agreed.

18. The Gift of Prophecy

Agreed, but I wish it wasn't limited to Ellen.

19. Law of God

Agreed.

20. Sabbath

Agreed.

21. Stewardship

Agreed.

22. Christian Behavior

Agreed, especially on the part about healthful living, but I also think that we need to remember that our personal preferences are not the standard for Christian living.

23. Marriage and the Family

Mostly agree, but I think it's interesting that most people pay more attention to the "one man and one woman" part than to the part about divorce.

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary

Mostly agreed, but I don't think the date is terribly important. Plus I think that this, like most things people write about the atonement, make it sound more complicated than it ought to be.

25. Second Coming of Christ

Agreed.

26. Death and Resurrection

Agreed.

27. Millennium and the End of Sin

I'm still not entirely sure about the whole "eternal death for sinners" part. I think that God is smart enough to know how to win everyone over, and I'm hoping that this is a conditional prophecy and will end up like Ninevah.

28. New Earth

Agreed.

[olger]

It sounds like you believe in Final Restoration ala Elhanan Winchester. I reviewed his book Dialogues back in 2001 and wrote a response.

[Gerr]

Why keep the Sabbath while questioning the event that defines its observance ?

g

(#6 and #20 are literaly connected).

There are many SDAs who believe that life was created by God but that it may NOT necessarily be within the last 6000 yrs.

I am not sure where Bravus stands on this. If he believes in the classic Darwinian sense of the origin of life, then whatever else he says about the 28 fundamentals would not make much sense to me.

[Tom Wetmore]

Why keep the Sabbath while questioning the event that defines its observance ?

g

(#6 and #20 are literaly connected).

A gentle reminder...

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Just one more reminder: this is not the thread for arguing about the details of these beliefs. If you want to do that, start your own thread.

As much as anything else, this thread is to affirm that the vast majority of what constitutes the actual gospel is common ground for us...

If you want to argue, start your own thread.

[Liz]

1. Holy Scriptures

Agree

2. Trinity

Agree

3. Father

Agree

4. Son

Agree

5. Holy Spirit

Agree

6. Creation

Agree

7. Nature of Man

Agree

8. Great Controversy

Agree

9. Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ

Agree

10. Experience of Salvation

While I agree with this, I'm confused as to why, when we express this thought out loud--and not standing by a baptismal tank, we are then condemned for thinking "we are saved", and must be plagued with guilt.

11. Growing in Christ

Again while I agree with this, I think far too many well meaning saints, don't allow "growth" on the individual's time table.

12. Church

I believe the church is the members and NOT the organization.

13. Remnant and Its Mission

Again I believe the Remnant are the people and NOT the organization.

14. Unity in the Body of Christ

Agree

15. Baptism

Agree

16. Lord's Supper

Agree

17. Spiritual Gifts and Ministries

Agree--like Bravus said, would be nice to have less politics here.

18. The Gift of Prophecy

Agree, and I also don't think it should be limited to EGW, while, I haven't seen anyone else step up in that role--I think we should keep our eyes open though.

19. Law of God

Agree

20. Sabbath

Agree

21. Stewardship

I think Bravus said it best:

General agreement but the identification of official church coffers as the 'storehouse' is IMO unscriptural and dangerous. Giving is crucial, good stewardship is crucial, but the Holy Spirit needs to be free to tell believers what to give to.

22. Christian Behavior

Again I liked the way Bravus said this too:

Health message good, but the focus should be on what actually promotes health, not on a set of traditions and prohibitions. Similarly for clothing and adornment (yep, that old shibboleth jewelery!). This statement "This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty" worries me. Does my Christian 'unblack' metal meet this standard? I believe so, most of you probably disagree. How do we distinguish Christian taste and beauty from personal taste?

23. Marriage and the Family

Agree, however, I think that all conferences should have someone on staff that can do marriage and family counseling. This is just from my point of view and the wall I keep hitting with our local church and conference--but they treat it like it is a dirty a little secret if someone has marital or family problems.

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary

Agree

25. Second Coming of Christ

Agree

26. Death and Resurrection

Agree

27. Millennium and the End of Sin

Agree

28. New Earth

Agree

[Gerr]

Quote:

10. Experience of Salvation

While I agree with this, I'm confused as to why, when we express this thought out loud--and not standing by a baptismal tank, we are then condemned for thinking "we are saved", and must be plagued with guilt.

Not argueing, Tom.

I hope that after we finish Romans (our current SS lesson study this quarter), we will, in all humility, be able to have the assurance that once we have put our faith/trust/confidence in Christ without reservation, that we ARE saved!

[Jeannieb43]

Not arguing, Gerry. But we don't have to wait that long.

Christ has already saved us -- all we have to do is accept!

[Woody]

I will make this short and sweet. I couldn't state it any better than Liz did while agreeing with Bravus. ANd also agreeing with what Jeannie has added. In sum ... I am agreeing with all the above. Wow, I don't recall being SO agreeable before.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Not arguing, Gerry. But we don't have to wait that long.

Christ has already saved us -- all we have to do is accept!

True, Jeannie, but I want those who are uncomfortable declaring themselves saved to see the Good News and the evidence for themselves.

[Bravus]

Thanks all: great discussion!

[aldona]

Quote:

How do we distinguish Christian taste and beauty from personal taste?

That's where the 29th Fundamental comes in:

29. If I don't like it, God doesn't like it.

There is no distinction.

And it is not just my personal taste, it is My God-Given Gift Of Discernment.

God has shown me that Mozart is good and them there new-fangled get-ups with drums are bad.

(What's that? Don't confuse me now with all that stuff about the artist's lifestyle and how Mozart was a Freemason. I like it and it sounds nice, so it must be from God.)

AJ

[Dr. Shane]

1. Holy Scriptures

Agree

2. Trinity

I am not sure about this belief.

3. Father

Agree

4. Son

Agree

5. Holy Spirit

Agree

6. Creation

Agree

7. Nature of Man

This is another tough one for me to grasp enough to state agreement.

8. Great Controversy

Agree

9. Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ

Agree

10. Experience of Salvation

Agree

11. Growing in Christ

Agree

12. Church

Agree

13. Remnant and Its Mission

Agree

14. Unity in the Body of Christ

Agree

15. Baptism

Agree

16. Lord's Supper

Agree

17. Spiritual Gifts and Ministries

Agree

18. The Gift of Prophecy

Agree

19. Law of God

Agree

20. Sabbath

Agree

21. Stewardship

Agree

22. Christian Behavior

Agree is most of this, not all points.

23. Marriage and the Family

Agree

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary

Agree

25. Second Coming of Christ

Agree

26. Death and Resurrection

Agree

27. Millennium and the End of Sin

Agree

28. New Earth

Agree

[Dr. Shane]

I hope that after we finish Romans (our current SS lesson study this quarter), we will, in all humility, be able to have the assurance that once we have put our faith/trust/confidence in Christ without reservation, that we ARE saved!

Since the stated purpose for 1 John being written is so that we might know we are saved, wouldn't First John be most helpful in gaining the assurance of salvation?

"These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)

[SivartM]

Didn't they do the epistles of John recently? I don't know; I don't use the adult SS lessons.

[LifeHiscost]

Would envisioning about 165 pages of posts on this thread, if comments were allowed without censure, be about right?

Would another thread entitled "comments/agreements/disagreements re:"Use Your Freedom/Identify", be an appropriate named new topic?

[Bravus]

Sounds great to me. Though it might be better to focus on one topic per thread: so far we have some questions on origins (#6), for example, which of course could fill a thread by itself. And so on: there are probably only 3-4 particularly interesting issues.