Anne Rice is quitting Christianity

[Dr. Shane]

Christianity is about His love relationships.

...it's about people.

...And if you want to call people "things", I would ask this forum if that could be considered a correct assessment....

I called "relationships" things. People are people. Places are places. Relationships are things.

Christianity is all about Jesus (a person), sinners (people) and a relationship (a thing) between them.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Bravus, I'm not boiling it down to one thing. I'm only speaking about the one thing that really resonates with me, because I share that in common with her, and it is much closer to home for me than any of her other issues. There is nothing and no one in this world anywhere near as important to me as my family, especially my husband, children, and grandchildren.

[GreatLakesGramma]

And that one issue, in the absence of any others, would be enough to drive me out.

[Dr. Shane]

It stuns me how people zero in on the 'gay thing'. How many things did she list?

Her son is gay. That is why people zero in on the "gay thing". Now let's say she had a daughter that wanted to become a priest in the Catholic church but was refused. Then people would probably zero in on the feminist thing.

[Dr. Shane]

If I were in a church in which the majority browbeat me about my son, and insisted I had to cut him out of my life because he is gay, I wouldn't stick around either. And if I were relatively new to Christianity, and that was all I had come to know of it, I would probably do exactly what she has done...

I expect to see my gay son in Heaven too, not because he is currently actively seeking God, which he isn't, but because I know that God is working in his life and drawing him to Himself, and I have full confidence that God is able to reach, in His own perfect time, that place in his heart that wants to be connected to Him, and teach him how to come to Him and be one with Him.

Thanks for sharing Gramma. Your experience can be contrast with that of Anne Rice and your grandmother because you are part of the Advent movement. We teach that God loves the sinner but hates the sin. Many denominations don't grasp that message. We also teach that God has no joy in the death of a sinner and hell will not be an everlasting torment. There is a great contrast between true Christianity and apostate Christianity.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

Christianity is about His love relationships.

...it's about people.

...And if you want to call people "things", I would ask this forum if that could be considered a correct assessment....

I called "relationships" things. People are people. Places are places. Relationships are things.

Christianity is all about Jesus (a person), sinners (people) and a relationship (a thing) between them.

You are correct in all the above, but you left out one thing..you left out the consanguinity between jesus and people....If you leave that out, you have no relationship...you have nothing more than definitions...and no points connecting them...

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Here is the problem...Christianity is not about "things"....It's about people, and relationships...It's about creating a life that is free from encumbrances to being all that you can be...It's about sharing the joy of living...If the truth can set you free, YOU WILL BE FREE INDEED!

Amen to that, Neil!

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Why would she have concluded that those false Christians were the most representative of Christianity today?

She obviously wasn't watching 3ABN and Hope Channel.

...which begs the question of why she and over 6 billion others on planet earth are not watching these broadcasts or this sort of Christianity in general. As I said, it is drowned out by much noise and confusion from all quarters, and sadly much of it coming directly from the supposed Christian world. It is not surprising she missed those small voices of truth.

Both 3ABN and Hope Channel have the theoretical ability to reach almost the entire earth's population with its global satellite down-link footprints. But only a very tiny fraction of earth's population has the technological capability of receiving any satellite signal even if they knew of it. The vast majority of viewers of both broadcasts are the Adventists. And the overwhelming majority of Adventists do not watch either regularly if at all. No surprise that Anne Rice wasn't either.

[SivartM]

She left Catholism. It is a shame too many (perhaps most) in society today do not even know the difference between Catholism and Christianity. Many Protestant church are following right down the intolerant and political path of Catholism. It is little wonder people like Anne Rice leave "Christianity". Truth be known, they never experienced it in the first place.

How can you say she was never a Christian? You have never met her. I can't assume that because Catholics believe some different things than I do that none of them are Christians. There are probably as many Catholic Christians as there are Adventist Christians and Christians who aren't part of any group.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: Shane

She left Catholism. It is a shame too many (perhaps most) in society today do not even know the difference between Catholism and Christianity. Many Protestant church are following right down the intolerant and political path of Catholism. It is little wonder people like Anne Rice leave "Christianity". Truth be known, they never experienced it in the first place.

How can you say she was never a Christian? You have never met her. I can't assume that because Catholics believe some different things than I do that none of them are Christians. There are probably as many Catholic Christians as there are Adventist Christians and Christians who aren't part of any group.

I agree with SivartM.

[Dr. Shane]

Both 3ABN and Hope Channel have the theoretical ability to reach almost the entire earth's population with its global satellite down-link footprints... The vast majority of viewers of both broadcasts are the Adventists. And the overwhelming majority of Adventists do not watch either regularly if at all. No surprise that Anne Rice wasn't either.

• 1/3 of new converts to Adventism come through media ministries.
• FTA satellite is commonly used in the eastern hemisphere. This means millions of non-Adventists receive Adventist channels in their home.
• Satellite TV and radio is one of the most effective ways of reaching Muslims in the Arab world.
• The recent switch in North America from AMC4 to Galaxy 19 means Adventist channels are reaching thousands of more homes in America than before.
• Free satellite dish systems have been given to prisons in various countries so that prisoners can watch Adventist channels. Many come out of prison and join the Adventist church.
• Adventists that don't watch Adventist TV are missing out on a big part of the Adventist experience.

[Dr. Shane]

I can't assume that because Catholics believe some different things than I do that none of them are Christians.

Of course I didn't say that no Catholics were Christians. What I said, or meant to infer, is that Catholism is not true Christianity. Thus anyone whose "Christian" experience is limited to Catholism has not experienced true Christianity.

Indeed Catholics believe some different things.

• The blood of Christ isn't enough for salvation. We must add our works to it in order to be saved
• The pope has the ultimate authority in interpreting Scripture.
• The Eucharist is the literal blood and body of Christ thus allowing the church to crucify Him anew.
• One must participate in the sacraments to receive atonement.
• Priests are mediators between God and man
• Sinners go to purgatory upon death.
• Saints are worshipped.

[Dr. Shane]

Now let's say she had a daughter that wanted to become a priest in the Catholic church but was refused. Then people would probably zero in on the feminist thing.

Better example: If her daughter had an abortion, people would zero in on the abortion thing.

[Rondo]

I started reading this thread from the beginning so you may have to go back to see what I am responding to.

You can be a Republican and be Pro-choice, you can be a Democrat and be Pro-life. Political labels do more harm than good, but that is only a political expectation to vote the party line.

Now, in this territory, we come to SDAs and the 28 Fundamentals. Is every SDA a believer in all 28 Fundies? That is probably a good question for us all to ask, eh??

I will venture into Secular Humanism. What it is, or can be, is that man should do for himself what he can do before he turns to God for assistance, other than for salvation. That is the American way. You certainly don't want our government to be designed after any religion, or you will have strife and anarchy, IMO. Maybe I'm a Religious Humanist, eh??

[Bravus]

The point, Shane, is that you are assuming that the most important factor is the personal life/family one. She has stated, and I believe her, because it's the same for me, that it's her ethical problems with *several* positions taken by the church that is the issue.

I don't have any gay family members, or anyone wanting to be ordained. None of these issues impacts on my personal life. They impact on me through my concern for every person on earth - all of whom Jesus died for.

[Bravus]

And we can't really point at the Catholic church when olger, right here right now in this thread, has affirmed that he in fact does strongly believe and support all the things she mentioned, and that he believes Jesus does too.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Both 3ABN and Hope Channel have the theoretical ability to reach almost the entire earth's population with its global satellite down-link footprints... The vast majority of viewers of both broadcasts are the Adventists. And the overwhelming majority of Adventists do not watch either regularly if at all. No surprise that Anne Rice wasn't either.

• 1/3 of new converts to Adventism come through media ministries.
• FTA satellite is commonly used in the eastern hemisphere. This means millions of non-Adventists receive Adventist channels in their home.
• Satellite TV and radio is one of the most effective ways of reaching Muslims in the Arab world.
• The recent switch in North America from AMC4 to Galaxy 19 means Adventist channels are reaching thousands of more homes in America than before.
• Free satellite dish systems have been given to prisons in various countries so that prisoners can watch Adventist channels. Many come out of prison and join the Adventist church.
• Adventists that don't watch Adventist TV are missing out on a big part of the Adventist experience.

And my point still stands. Even if you assume 1/3 of all Adventists currently (not just recent converts from media ministries) we are talking about less than one one thousandth of one percent of the entire world's population. Even if you assume that those converts represent 1 out of every 1000 people viewing/listening (a wildly generous assumption) to these media ministries, we are still talking about less than 1 percent of the earth's population actually viewing and listneing to these media ministries.

[Dr. Shane]

The point, Shane, is that you are assuming that the most important factor is the personal life/family one.

Just a little correction. That is the feeling I got from the Huffington Post piece. The author of that piece may have been off base. I have known scores of people through my 12 Step group over the years that have left the Catholic church for various reasons. It is rare that the reasons they give for leaving the Catholic church would be issues in the Adventist church.

[Dr. Shane]

And we can't really point at the Catholic church when olger, right here right now in this thread, has affirmed that he in fact does strongly believe and support all the things she mentioned, and that he believes Jesus does too.

Well, if you believe Olger is an embodiment of the Adventist church, I guess you do have reason to be alarmed. I happen to think the Adventist church has set out its beliefs in the Church Manual and the book "Seventh-day Adventists Believe..."

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: DeeAnna

In the church here.........and I am speaking of SDA --- there is almost overwhelming "pressure" to be Republican

Subscribe to Liberty Magazine and you will no longer feel pressure to become a Republican.

How true. I find our churches to be well representated by Republicans, Democrats, Independents and Libertaians, and ballanced across the board between the first 3 of these groups.

Also I understand Anne Rice's perspective, these are things that I don't like about typical Evangelical Christianity, and why I love being a Sevent-day Adventist and the investigative judgment approach to the Bible.

We have too many Adventists who try to push us into a conservative Christian perspective, or a liberal perspective; but in Mrs. White's writings I see a chance to both be a Christian yet have room for the type of Christianity Anne Rice seems to be looking for.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Of course I didn't say that no Catholics were Christians. What I said, or meant to infer, is that Catholism is not true Christianity. Thus anyone whose "Christian" experience is limited to Catholism [sic] has not experienced true Christianity.

That is *exactly* like saying Catholics are not true Christians.

[DeeAnna]

Shane,

If a person who happens to be a Catholic believes in Jesus, why isn't he as much as a Christian as a person who happens to be a Baptist, Episcopalian, Methodist, or SDA ? Can you define being a Christian to me just so I can understand that statement about Catholics not experiencing true Christianity? I'm having a problem with the "true" part.

Is it really the belief of SDA's that we are the only ones who can experience true Christianity ?

[Dr. Shane]

Can you define being a Christian to me just so I can understand that statement about Catholics not experiencing true Christianity?

That is a big question. Let me take a stab at it. I am coming from an Adventist prospective. If you have read the book "The Great Controversy" you will be able to identify with words and phrases I use. If you haven't read that yet, understanding some things I have posted may seem like they are written in some kind of code. Let me see if I can make it simpler.

True Christianity follows the Bible and the Bible alone. Sure they may wear socks (and the Bible doesn't say to wear socks) and they may not smoke (and the Bible doesn't prohibit smoking) but the point is that their beliefs do not contradict anything written in the Bible. The Bible is their only rule of faith.

Somewhere in history, within about 100 years of Christ's death, Christians started adopting customs and traditions from other religions into their faith. This accumulated eventually with the creation of the Roman Catholic church (RCC) having the pope as its head. Thus the RCC is the combination of Biblical Christianity and various pagan religions. Because of that, it is referred as false religion.

During the Reformation (about 500 years ago), many Christians, aided by the new invention of the printing press, were able to break away from the RCC and start the process of discarding religious beliefs held by the RCC which are not Biblical. The Seventh-day Adventist church, organized in the 1860s discarded some offensive doctrines like everlasting torment in hell, the Eucharist and Sunday worship (to name a few). Many of the Christian church that left the RCC continue to hold onto some of her un-Biblical doctrines - especially Sunday worship.

Revelation prophecy refers to the system of apostate Christianity as a great whore (17:1) and goes on to say she has daughters (17:5). Adventists understand these verses to be referring to the RCC as the whore and the Sunday-keeping, Protestant churches as her daughters (17:5). So when an Adventist refers to false or apostate Christianity they are typically referring to the RCC or her Protestant, Sunday-keeping daughters.

Now that is not to say Adventist believe the members of these churches cannot be real Christians. Adventists do believe in the invisible church which is made up of members from all churches. To be a Christian, one must follow Christ. Many Adventists believe that there are "Christians" in other religions such as Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. The reason for that is because there are people in those religions that are following the Holy Spirit in accordance to the light they have.

The problem with being a member of a false religion is that it drastically increases the chances of one being led astray. That brings us back to Anne Rice and her experience in RCC. The anti-gay rhetoric and lack of love and compassion toward gay people that she encountered may be what caused her to reject Christianity altogether. Had she belonged to a compassionate Adventist church that expressed love and mercy for her son, her Christian experience would have likely been much different.

[Woody]

Quote:

I happen to think the Adventist church has set out its beliefs in the Church Manual and the book "Seventh-day Adventists Believe..."

The church manual is a book of rules that the church opperates by. It IS approved and authored by the church. It is a good book of suggestions which are generally ignored by the church universal. But it is not a book of our beliefs.

The SDAs Believe IS a book of our beliefs. But it is NOT approved by the church. It is the unauthorized OPINION of a group of believers. Some of it is accurate. Some of it is not.

[DeeAnna]

That's what I was looking for, thanks !