'not really a Christian'

[wayfinder]

IMO, a follower is not necessarily a student. A Christian is a follower of Christ and a disciple is a student of Christ. A student wishes to become like their teacher, therefore, they want to be like Christ. A follower may not necessarily know what is taught, but identifies with the personage of the one they are following. A follower can do the things you cite without a fealing of guilt, because they are a Christian without knowledge of the teaching of Christ. The crusades were an example of followers of Christ doing what they thought was right, but did so without knowledge of what Christ taught. People of other religions do the same thing as Christians, to the embarrassment and horror of others of the same belief.

[Guest]

I saw an ABC News interview with Anne Rice last night. She stated that she was "not a Christian," rather, she was a follower of Christ.

I guess Anne Rice and wayfinder have a lot in common then.

[Guest]

Rich, I believe you have stated here that you want nothing to do with Adventism, Christianity, or God. That sounds like a made up mind to me. But I have realized on retrospect that it could be something else. If I was wrong, I am sorry.

That was a very Christian thing to say Catherine.

[cardw]

There's a sense in which people close their own probation-- they become so settled either into error or into truth that they can't be moved.

Well I'm not settled into anything. That is the whole point of agnosticism.

I think you are confusing your own assumptions of truth with my position.

I post a lot of evidence and you continue to simply make claims and deflect your lack of any real evidence by attacking my motivations and the use of implications.

You only provide more evidence that there really isn't any basis for your claims of truth.

[cardw]

Rich, I believe you have stated here that you want nothing to do with Adventism, Christianity, or God. That sounds like a made up mind to me. But I have realized on retrospect that it could be something else. If I was wrong, I am sorry.

I'm willing to consider real evidence, but that seems to be in short supply. What I observe is the use of avoidance and obtuse implication as a substitute for any real substance.

I'm not offended at all. I'm used to this. I don't take much personally. You are free to make up what ever you want.

[LifeHiscost]

I know it's impossible to determine who is wheat and who is tares even of oneself.

"Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."Matthew 7:14-17 NKJV

"So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God." 1 John 3:10 NLT

Grace!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I know it's impossible to determine who is wheat and who is tares even of oneself.

"Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."Matthew 7:14-17 NKJV

"So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God." 1 John 3:10 NLT

Grace!

I don't know why you keep doing this. This means absolutely nothing. It answers no question because, again, it is a long litany of cliches.

I love everyone in principle. I live life the best I can. And yet that would not qualify me to belong to God.

And if I was a Christian there is no way to determine if I lived righteously or if I loved every believer. In fact the Bible says that our righteousness is like filthy rags and I don't believe that one can be ordered to love every believer. So in the Christian world view there is forever uncertainty if one belongs to god.

And there is no peace and there is really no grace. In practical terms all of this is simply lip service. I simply have to site the volumes of dialog on whether Christians are saved by works or grace on Club Adventist. In practical terms no one really knows.

[LifeHiscost]

In practical terms no one really knows.

Since you do not believe the method that your Creator has chosen to keep in touch, I would like to know what logical alternative you propose to substitute that has more validity. The amount of wisdom you have managed to acquire in the years you have lived on this earth seems hardly sufficient to base the outcome of the universes' future, at least for this person's sense of recognition.

I choose to believe the Creator of all that is from eternity, rather than the creature who has only had time enough to decide his own fate with very limited faculties.

Regards!

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

I saw an ABC News interview with Anne Rice last night. She stated that she was "not a Christian," rather, she was a follower of Christ.

I guess Anne Rice and wayfinder have a lot in common then.

We have nothing in common!

[Guest]

You both claim that you're not Christians, but followers of Christ. That's something, is it not?

[GreatLakesGramma]

You are free to make up what ever you want.

That's exactly why I won't enter into dialog with you on spiritual matters. No human being can give you the evidence you want. You consider the Bible invalid, and if someone were to share their personal experience with you, no doubt you'd dismiss it as lies, delusions, and coincidence.

But I have one question for you. You say you are open to real evidence. If you were to get evidence that convinced you, are you willing to go all the way - surrender your entire life, your will, everything you have and are? Because God doesn't play games. He knows when we mean it and when we're just playing at it. If you are really willing to do whatever He asks of you, once you get the evidence, I have no doubt that He is fully capable of giving it to you, in whatever way is most meaningful to you personally.

Years ago, I reached the point where I hated God and was ready to turn my back on Him. I had been an Adventist for about 13 years, and my own experience was pretty much like your own as you have described it in other threads. I had no hope, no peace, just fear, anxiety, and guilt. I would tell God, as I went about my work, to just leave me alone, I wanted nothing to do with Him. But then I would get on my knees and beg Him, simply out of fear, not to let me do it.

God began to work in my behalf then, and my life has never been the same again. He has become my very best Friend, and He has never, ever let me down. I would rather die than live without Him. That is why I said my mind is made up.

I have used the phrase "not a real Christian" in this forum. But I have never applied it directly to any individual but myself, because I do not consider myself to have been a genuine Christian back then, before I knew what it really means to be born again. I wanted to be. I was sincere. But I didn't know God, and I didn't know how to be His. I know there are others within the church (all churches, not just Adventist) that are in the same place I was in. They want to be Christians. They are sincere. But they haven't got a clue.

And the Adventist church isn't very good at teaching its members that very most crucial concept. Yet it's there. We have it. It's in Steps to Christ. I read that little book probably 10 times without getting it, because I wasn't ready to understand it. God had to intervene Himself and show me, through that very book, and through His own still, small voice. And as I said, my life has never been the same.

[LifeHiscost]

Beautiful! :Jesusfish:

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

In practical terms no one really knows.

Since you do not believe the method that your Creator has chosen to keep in touch, I would like to know what logical alternative you propose to substitute that has more validity. The amount of wisdom you have managed to acquire in the years you have lived on this earth seems hardly sufficient to base the outcome of the universes' future, at least for this person's sense of recognition.

I choose to believe the Creator of all that is from eternity, rather than the creature who has only had time enough to decide his own fate with very limited faculties.

Regards!

You only have this lifetime to determine if there is a creator and what method this creator has chosen to communicate. We are in the same boat. You are making a guess with limited faculties.

When I look at the evidence of how the Bible was put together it is very clear to me that it is made up. So I don't waste my limited faculties trying to make sense out of this body of myths.

I make no assumptions about any creator so I have no reason to come up with an alternative. I also make no assumptions about any future punishment or reward so I don't even a place to start in regards to some god's wishes, the requirements, or my motivation to put any time into the stories made up by iron age men.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You are free to make up what ever you want.

That's exactly why I won't enter into dialog with you on spiritual matters. No human being can give you the evidence you want. You consider the Bible invalid, and if someone were to share their personal experience with you, no doubt you'd dismiss it as lies, delusions, and coincidence.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You are free to make up what ever you want.

That's exactly why I won't enter into dialog with you on spiritual matters. No human being can give you the evidence you want. You consider the Bible invalid, and if someone were to share their personal experience with you, no doubt you'd dismiss it as lies, delusions, and coincidence.

But I have one question for you. You say you are open to real evidence. If you were to get evidence that convinced you, are you willing to go all the way - surrender your entire life, your will, everything you have and are? Because God doesn't play games. He knows when we mean it and when we're just playing at it. If you are really willing to do whatever He asks of you, once you get the evidence, I have no doubt that He is fully capable of giving it to you, in whatever way is most meaningful to you personally.

Years ago, I reached the point where I hated God and was ready to turn my back on Him. I had been an Adventist for about 13 years, and my own experience was pretty much like your own as you have described it in other threads. I had no hope, no peace, just fear, anxiety, and guilt. I would tell God, as I went about my work, to just leave me alone, I wanted nothing to do with Him. But then I would get on my knees and beg Him, simply out of fear, not to let me do it.

God began to work in my behalf then, and my life has never been the same again. He has become my very best Friend, and He has never, ever let me down. I would rather die than live without Him. That is why I said my mind is made up.

I have used the phrase "not a real Christian" in this forum. But I have never applied it directly to any individual but myself, because I do not consider myself to have been a genuine Christian back then, before I knew what it really means to be born again. I wanted to be. I was sincere. But I didn't know God, and I didn't know how to be His. I know there are others within the church (all churches, not just Adventist) that are in the same place I was in. They want to be Christians. They are sincere. But they haven't got a clue.

And the Adventist church isn't very good at teaching its members that very most crucial concept. Yet it's there. We have it. It's in Steps to Christ. I read that little book probably 10 times without getting it, because I wasn't ready to understand it. God had to intervene Himself and show me, through that very book, and through His own still, small voice. And as I said, my life has never been the same.

That's a beautiful testamony (sp) GLG, couldn't have said it better myself. Even though I didn't have the same experience, I just ignore him for many years. Even though I still went to church most every Sabbath. But he was there in every turn I took, bugging me. I can't recall when exactly I excepted him, but I eventually did. We just grew together. I never really had that fear, but like I mentioned before, I was brought up with that, be it church, home, etc. Its always there, and actually I've never met anyone who's never had fear, christian or non-christian.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

That's exactly why I won't enter into dialog with you on spiritual matters. No human being can give you the evidence you want. You consider the Bible invalid' date=' and if someone were to share their personal experience with you, no doubt you'd dismiss it as lies, delusions, and coincidence.

I wouldn't dismiss your experience. I have experiences of a transcendent nature all the time. I don't believe the source of those experiences is contained exclusively in the Christian story. For most people I think the Bible and the Christian story get in the way.

I think there is something that happens when people get to the end of their rope. You may assign it to "God" or a new understanding of the Bible because that is the world view you were given. And if that is how you access it and it is working, then by all means continue to use it.

I know for a fact that these transformations don't require Christianity. The problem that I encounter is that because I have an experience of transformation outside of Christianity most Christians discount my experience as being a deception, from the Devil, etc. etc. because it threatens the Christian view that Christianity is the only way.

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

But I have one question for you. You say you are open to real evidence. If you were to get evidence that convinced you, are you willing to go all the way - surrender your entire life, your will, everything you have and are? Because God doesn't play games. He knows when we mean it and when we're just playing at it. If you are really willing to do whatever He asks of you, once you get the evidence, I have no doubt that He is fully capable of giving it to you, in whatever way is most meaningful to you personally.

I have surrendered my life to what is true and it has never failed me. My standard of honesty and truth are very high. They aren't high because I'm trying to be good, they are high because that is what I have found works. Humility, to me, is not a virtue, it's a survival mechanism.

I have far more life energy, love, joy, and motivation to create now as an agnostic than I ever had dedicating my life to Jesus. I gave Jesus and God a chance and it failed me. It failed me because ultimately I discovered that Christianity is a myth.

The only conclusion that I can come to based on my own experience is that Christianity, for the most part, gets in the way of this. Mainly because Christianity is ultimately based on a threat of death if you don't follow it. I can show you this communicated over and over and over and over again.

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

Years ago, I reached the point where I hated God and was ready to turn my back on Him. I had been an Adventist for about 13 years, and my own experience was pretty much like your own as you have described it in other threads. I had no hope, no peace, just fear, anxiety, and guilt. I would tell God, as I went about my work, to just leave me alone, I wanted nothing to do with Him. But then I would get on my knees and beg Him, simply out of fear, not to let me do it.

God began to work in my behalf then, and my life has never been the same again. He has become my very best Friend, and He has never, ever let me down. I would rather die than live without Him. That is why I said my mind is made up.

What this seems to me is that Christianity is creating the disease so that it can provide the cure. I find it rather alarming that you equate death with living without anything. That seems to me to be a sign of fear.

There are tangible things that I am willing to die for, but I have found that maturity is taking responsibility for one's own life and learning how to be independent. It's about living life out of a place of love and confidence, not fear. And most of what I hear from Christianity is fear, fear, fear.

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

And the Adventist church isn't very good at teaching its members that very most crucial concept. Yet it's there. We have it. It's in Steps to Christ. I read that little book probably 10 times without getting it, because I wasn't ready to understand it. God had to intervene Himself and show me, through that very book, and through His own still, small voice. And as I said, my life has never been the same. [/quote']

I think everyone comes to a point where they are at the end of their rope and they have to make a decision. I think when people "get it" it's because they don't have any other option.

One way of looking at is that pain of staying the same becomes greater than the pain of changing. These types of transitions happen with or without Christianity.

It's really a matter of courage and willingness to set aside one's ego. Some of that is communicated in "Steps to Christ" but it's sabotaged by all the fear and shame statements that fill most of Ellen White's books. That's why it's hard to get it from any of these books and the Bible.

You know cardw, I really love your testimony here. Even if you don't believe it or not, your saying biblical things just without acknowledging it. Just my opinion.

[GreatLakesGramma]

I find it rather alarming that you equate death with living without anything. That seems to me to be a sign of fear.

No, I don't equate living without God to be death, I am saying I don't want to be live without him. Life would not be worth living.

It's about living life out of a place of love and confidence, not fear. And most of what I hear from Christianity is fear, fear, fear.[/quote}

I grew up with fear, but it didn't come from church or the Bible. It came from my mother, a verbally abusive perfectionist. She was the authority figure I grew up fearing and hating, and I felt the same toward any authority figure. And since God is the ultimate authority, He was a much greater threat than my mother. I was sure that if I wasn't perfect, He would reject me too, just as I felt my mother always had, and just as most other people I knew eventually did. "Being good enough" was the religion I was brought up with.

But in defense of my mother, her upbringing was even more harsh than mine, and she did the best she knew how. She was always under stress to be good enough herself, and she was not raised in a Christian home. I am thankful that God taught me how to parent my children differently. My daughter remembers how I was before, just like my mother, but my sons were too young to remember me being like that. I do have a good relationship with my mother now too. Now that she no longer feels responsible for my performance and conduct, it almost seems that I can do no wrong in her eyes. And I know now that she always loved me. Back then, it was all about her, not about me at all.

[cardw]

You know cardw, I really love your testimony here. Even if you don't believe it or not, your saying biblical things just without acknowledging it. Just my opinion.

I will freely admit that some of these ideas can be found within the Bible, but I don't think it's the most efficient way to get them. I have found much clearer sources for this information.

I also have found that the Bible contains harmful ideas that block people from reaching their full potential.

The main point I want to illustrate is that Christianity is not the exclusive source of these ideas as it claims. I also want to point out that it doesn't require that one surrender their life to Jesus.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I find it rather alarming that you equate death with living without anything. That seems to me to be a sign of fear.

No, I don't equate living without God to be death, I am saying I don't want to be live without him. Life would not be worth living.

[GoLions]

cadw,

What, if anything, would convince you that Jesus is God? How about a miracle healing? How about an Angel visiting you and saying so? How about 'fire coming down from heaven'? How about a dead loved one coming back to you and saying so? How about a being of light, doing all those things and calling himself Jesus, and the whole world believing he is? Your 'belief' system will not stand up to that kind of pressure. You will fold like a house of cards, when that happens.

I can't covince you in anyway if you don't have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the word of God. We will just be looking at the same thing, but from completly opposite point of views. I can't cross over to your side. I am very happy and at peace with where I am.

As far as using fear, if I knew your brakes were bad on your car and didn't warn you as you headed down a mountain road, I would be somewhat responsible for your demise. If you were in a boat, in a terrible storm, and I knew a safe harbor, but did not tell you, I would once again be held accountable for your fate. Rich, Fair warning, I know your headed for trouble.

[GoLions]

I have had it said of me that I am not really a Christian. But, the person that said that wasn't really a Christian.

Seriously, If someone calls themselves a Christian, but when you bring Bible texts to them, Biblical truth to them. Salvation issues if you will, and they say "I don't want to read that, I don't care what it says, I know in my heart what is right."

To me, that person, is no longer a Christian, reguardless what they call themselves. I have pity on them. I don't go around broadcasting that they are fallen, its more of a mental note, on how I treat them. Truth be told though, they generaly treat me worse then before, whereas with me, I back off the teachings and try just to be nice to them. I am NOT judging them as far as saying they are lost forever, but I'm not playing some little game saying they are saved either (that's judging as well you know).

[Bravus]

From within a particular perspective... Perhaps try the reverse thought experiment, GoLions and Gramma and everyone else. Try to see the world from Rich's perspective, just for a moment, as an exercise for your imagination. Not your 'anyone who isn't a Christian is an amoral nihilist' caricature, but his view as he has so eloquently described it here over years.

If your imagination is not up to that challenge, why should we accept your assertion that yours is the only possible view? Maybe it's just the only one your imagination will stretch to...

[GoLions]

From within a particular perspective... Perhaps try the reverse thought experiment, GoLions and Gramma and everyone else. Try to see the world from Rich's perspective, just for a moment, as an exercise for your imagination. Not your 'anyone who isn't a Christian is an amoral nihilist' caricature, but his view as he has so eloquently described it here over years.

If your imagination is not up to that challenge, why should we accept your assertion that yours is the only possible view? Maybe it's just the only one your imagination will stretch to...

I can see his side. Lets take creation as an example. I don't know Rich's thoughts on this at all, I am making an assumption here (before this thread, I didn't even know of him). A person without knowledge of the Bible or religon, would probably look to see what would be the most logical or probable reason for the earth being here. Having 'God' doing all this might be the furthest possible option to consider. For me, its the first. Maybe for Rich, its the same with the Bible. If God did exist, would he really use the printed word, from years ago, to reach people in this day and age. I see it as perfectly viable. You can go through a lot of rabbit holes,or circle logic trying to argue one side or the other. I believe, I have had more then enough evidence for me and my faith. God is good.

[GoLions]

Golions...I believe that say it all about you...long suffering and persevering! (your name that is)

LOL

[cardw]

cadw,

What, if anything, would convince you that Jesus is God? How about a miracle healing? How about an Angel visiting you and saying so? How about 'fire coming down from heaven'? How about a dead loved one coming back to you and saying so? How about a being of light, doing all those things and calling himself Jesus, and the whole world believing he is? Your 'belief' system will not stand up to that kind of pressure. You will fold like a house of cards, when that happens.