Reality

[LifeHiscost]

When we get to heaven, after the dust settles from the experience man faces on this earth under the power of the prince of darkness, are we going to have continuous meetings to answer the question of whether we are really there? And will anyone want to stay there if we will still need further evidence to be assured it isn't all just a dream, as some it seems, would have us to believe our experience with Him is in the here and now.

"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority."John 7:17 NKJV

"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:4 NKJV

"I have written this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life."1 John 5:13 NLT

Seems to me it would be a good idea to get to know Him before going on and on about whether He really exists.

"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Matthew 7:23 NKJV"

Regards!

[Bravus]

'Reality' seems like a very odd thread title if your purpose is to simply assume, by assertion, one particular view of reality. And one shared by well under a seventh of humanity at that. And sure, reality is not entirely established by consensus, but such a dramatic lack of consensus certainly calls into question the objectivity of a particular view.

Is this just more of that 'triumphalism' cardw has been identifying?

Quote:

Seems to me it would be a good idea to get to know Him before going on and on about whether He really exists.

But, see, this is the incredibly frustrating part! You assume we haven't tried. I personally have tried everything. Prayer, bible study, giving, serving - I worked as a missionary. I have tried for years and years, doing absolutely everything: and God has chosen not to play his part at all. I'm not even talking about miracles, just about the fact that a relationship has to involve two people, and this one has only ever involved one.

It's frustrating that you guys continue to make this assumption despite being repeatedly told that it's not the case. And it's plain false, in real, testable, empirical terms. I *have* tried to get to know him before discussing his existence. And it is precisely the failure of that quest that leads me to question his existence and/or nature. (That is to say, I believe he exists, but that he does not display the characteristics ascribed to him by Christians.)

No doubt I'll just get slapped about the head with more quotes and more suggestions that it's all my fault for lack of belief. But I believed. I believed for years.

It is God that has failed to in any way show his... reality.

[LifeHiscost]

Say what?

Quote:

Seems to me it would be a good idea to get to know Him before going on and on about whether He really exists.

Tell me about someone you got to know before deciding if the existed! I want to hear about this individual. On the face of it, that would sound a little delusional. Shades of Mr Rabbit!

Why am I not surprised by these two responses. One will never be able to say, "The reason I arrived in the Kingdom is because I did thus and thus." Even our very choices are a result of God intervening while we were still too ignorant to make the right choices.

If the cross were suffered by the King of Glory that we might not have to suffer the death we deserve for our lack of capacity to rise above our weaknesses,there is no other evidence sufficient to meet our need.

"Indeed, the Son of Man has come to seek and to save people who are lost.”"Luke 19:10 GWT

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."John 15:16 NKJV

"What if some did not believe and were without faith? Does their lack of faith and their faithlessness nullify and make ineffective and void the faithfulness of God and His fidelity [to His Word]?"Romans 3:3 AMP

"If we are faithless [do not believe and are untrue to Him], He remains true (faithful to His Word and His righteous character), for He cannot deny Himself."

2 Timothy 2:13 AMP

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Romans 5:8 KJV

These instructions will not be fulfilled for many, if not most. Many do not agree they have a lack that demands the death and the shed blood of the Christ as the only means of salvation, no matter how righteous they think themselves to be. Each cannot but choose for themselves what method they will accept for a continuously successful future.

"And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.... as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”"

Joshua 24:14 NKJV

Regards!

[Bravus]

Your claim, then, is that it is always God who makes the first move. So if God doesn't make that move, the resulting damnation is his fault?

[LifeHiscost]

Your claim, then, is that it is always God who makes the first move. So if God doesn't make that move, the resulting damnation is his fault?

There is no reality of "God didn't make the first move". For whatever reason, we may now not recognize His "first move" toward us as individuals. But He remains faithful to His effort to take us to the safe haven only He can provide, until such time as there is no favorable response and our spirit remains without life, the result of rejecting the Lifegiver.

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." John 3:17 NKJV

"Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

Matthew 25:34 NKJV

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,"Ephesians 1:4 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Quotes are okay, but.....What do you believe? What is your experience?.... To simply quote some ideas or texts does not answer the question when you are asked, why do you believe in a God?

Your quotes do not answer the question about the decision of believing in something before deciding its existense.

The quotes are what I believe and God has not given me the responsibility of convicting others of my beliefs.

To be fair it seems incumbent on me to make it as plain as is possible for me to explain. To reiterate believing in something before deciding its' existence might be likened to the airflow underneath the wingspan of a 250 ton aircraft. When first observing the craft, a small child has no concept that it is perfectly normal by the law of physics, for the plane to rise from the earth with little difficulty, carrying the precious cargo of many lives.

The child cannot see, nor cannot even envision the hand print of the lifting power that holds the aircraft above the earth. Yet he/she knows without doubt it is being held above, even to the extent he/she will, when afforded the opportunity, walk under this behemoth as it flies overhead, all without more than exhilaration with the experience.

To put it in other words from a time past, which still holds true today:

"The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”" John 3:8 NLT

"Then He also said to the multitudes, “Whenever you see a cloud rising out of the west, immediately you say, ‘A shower is coming’; and so it is. And when you see the south wind blow, you say, ‘There will be hot weather’; and there is. Hypocrites! You can discern the face of the sky and of the earth, but how is it you do not discern this time?"Luke 12:55,56 NKJV

Not all that I give of the Word, to reflect my attitude re: the present frame of mind of this world's society, describes every person. Each person must make up their own mind whether such words apply to them personally or in entirety.

"So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."Isaiah 55:11 NKJV

Regards!

[Twilight]

'Reality' seems like a very odd thread title if your purpose is to simply assume, by assertion, one particular view of reality. And one shared by well under a seventh of humanity at that. And sure, reality is not entirely established by consensus, but such a dramatic lack of consensus certainly calls into question the objectivity of a particular view.

Is this just more of that 'triumphalism' cardw has been identifying?

Quote:

Seems to me it would be a good idea to get to know Him before going on and on about whether He really exists.

But, see, this is the incredibly frustrating part! You assume we haven't tried. I personally have tried everything. Prayer, bible study, giving, serving - I worked as a missionary. I have tried for years and years, doing absolutely everything: and God has chosen not to play his part at all. I'm not even talking about miracles, just about the fact that a relationship has to involve two people, and this one has only ever involved one.

It's frustrating that you guys continue to make this assumption despite being repeatedly told that it's not the case. And it's plain false, in real, testable, empirical terms. I *have* tried to get to know him before discussing his existence. And it is precisely the failure of that quest that leads me to question his existence and/or nature. (That is to say, I believe he exists, but that he does not display the characteristics ascribed to him by Christians.)

No doubt I'll just get slapped about the head with more quotes and more suggestions that it's all my fault for lack of belief. But I believed. I believed for years.

It is God that has failed to in any way show his... reality.

You must be doing something wrong.

God has made Himself very real to me...

In fact, if I was as focused on God and attentive to Him, as He is to me, it would probably be even more evident.

God directs me moment by moment.

Upon one condition.

That I am paying attention...

So I would ask, are you paying attention?

[Twilight]

"Be still and know that I am God."

[Bravus]

Yes, it's clearly my fault.

[Twilight]

Yes, it's clearly my fault.

Will you genuinely admit to that possibility?

That some sin within yourself is obstructing God revealing Himself to you?

Here are the conditions for experiencing the indwellling of the Holy Spirit (the kingdom of God within you):

Mat 5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:4 Blessed [are] they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Mat 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Mat 5:7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Mat 5:8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Mat 5:9 Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Mat 5:10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

The very first step is an admittance that we are "poor in spirit".

This is the biggest problem for Laodicea:

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Without that first step, Christianity is just plain torture...

[LifeHiscost]

Without that first step, Christianity is just plain torture...

To Bravus, Cardw and anyone else willing to listen to this man's testimony. My peace comes not from striving, not from my correctness, not from my wisdom, though all those are useful when God, through His Son, chooses to use them. However my peace comes from submission to Him alone Who is able to master the enemy of souls, the Door of the sheepfold.

"“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber."John 10:2 NKJV

"Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep....I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. " John 10:7-11, 14- NKJV

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: bravus

It is God that has failed to in any way show his... reality.

We, who are here today and tomorrow are gone, as if we never existed, would seem to be less real than He whom you believe to be nonexistent or so distant as to seem nonexistent. However, by faith I believe you have or have had parents, someone who took part in your creation, you who now reveals a propensity to try to disprove there was ever a reasonable God revealed to determine our original inheritance.

That's not a propensity I wish to follow nor do I wish to follow a pathway that makes myself the sole and best possibility of a future for eternity. Nor do I wish to follow a god that thinks so little of his creation that he would just plant them on some planetary surface and then go off to some other part of his universe where he has more important things to attend.

Regards!

[Bravus]

We, who are here today and tomorrow are gone, as if we never existed, would seem to be less real than He whom you believe to be nonexistent or so distant as to seem nonexistent. However, by faith I believe you have or have had parents, someone who took part in your creation, you who now reveals a propensity to try to disprove there was ever a reasonable God revealed to determine our original inheritance.

You *still* fail to get it. I'm *not* trying to disprove the existence of God! I'm desperate to prove his existence. He just refuses to cooperate.

[LifeHiscost]

My life and how I treat others says more about my beliefs than Bible quotes. We can hide behind Bible quoting when we are not sure of our beliefs or the reasons for them.

You're right about my beliefs, they are not all they need to be.

That is why I lean on His beliefs as are recorded in Bible quotes, a safe haven granted by Jesus for all who wish to lean on Him.

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39 KJV

"Jesus told him, “No! The Scriptures say,

‘People do not live by bread alone,

but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” " Matthew 4:3 NLT

If you are of the opinion you are capable of personal combat with the master of deceit, God will not forever deny you that choice. Coming back is not so easily accomplished after having given one's self into the hands of the enemy of souls.

"For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places."

Ephesians 6:12 NLT

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

The God I believe in, allows each person their own journey to understanding and belief.

"And this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth."John 17:3 NLT

"There is one body and one Spirit. In the same way you were called to share one hope."Ephesians 4:4 GWT

"Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." John 14:6 NLT

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHisCost

...disprove there was ever a reasonable God revealed to determine our original inheritance.

You *still* fail to get it. I'm *not* trying to disprove the existence of God! I'm desperate to prove his existence. He just refuses to cooperate.

I'm not sure what hoops you wish Him to jump through to prove Himself. The only place in the Word where there seems to be evidence He wishes us to do something to allow Him to prove Himself, is probably one in which most are reticent to take the challenge.

"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."

Malachi 3:10 KJV

Somehow I think if you were to take Him at His Word, you would be surprised at His response. If you were to accept His challenge to you, I would be more than happy to claim another promise of His for those of the likes of us, something I've already seen the evidence He promises to give.

"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven."Matthew 18:19 KJV

Blessings!!

[phkrause]

I have no problem in talking about my belief system to others with out quoting from the Bible. Intellectual knowledge is simply not very convincing. My life and how I treat others says more about my beliefs than Bible quotes. We can hide behind Bible quoting when we are not sure of our beliefs or the reasons for them.

I agree, but I also see nothing wrong with quoting from the Bible. But than it needs to be part of your life and not just quoting to condemn others. Like I've heard from many people, you need to walk your talk. I know many like to condemn the Jews for being legalists, but those that are religious walk there talk every day not just the Sabbath.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Without that first step, Christianity is just plain torture...

To Bravus, Cardw and anyone else willing to listen to this man's testimony. My peace comes not from striving, not from my correctness, not from my wisdom, though all those are useful when God, through His Son, chooses to use them. However my peace comes from submission to Him alone Who is able to master the enemy of souls, the Door of the sheepfold.

"“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber."John 10:2 NKJV

"Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep....I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. " John 10:7-11, 14- NKJV

Blessings!!

Amen brothere...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: LifeHisCost

We, who are here today and tomorrow are gone, as if we never existed, would seem to be less real than He whom you believe to be nonexistent or so distant as to seem nonexistent. However, by faith I believe you have or have had parents, someone who took part in your creation, you who now reveals a propensity to try to disprove there was ever a reasonable God revealed to determine our original inheritance.

You *still* fail to get it. I'm *not* trying to disprove the existence of God! I'm desperate to prove his existence. He just refuses to cooperate.

Maybe that is because you keep trying to shohorn Him into an athiestic ideological position that He will not co-operate with.

Your beliefs, to my mind, deny you the very access you are seeking.

God and the World, just do not mix.

If you are willing to be totally humble, to lay every belief you have down at the foot of the Cross and allow God to re-educate you...

...Then He will reveal Himself.

Like He has to so many on here.

It is clear to those that have had God revealed to them, when they meet someone who has had the same experience...

[SivartM]

God and the World, just do not mix.

But... I thought God created the world.

[LifeHiscost]

It is clear to those that have had God revealed to them, when they meet someone who has had the same experience...

God bless you, Twilight. I'm satisfied that, but for the grace of God, there go I, no matter the repugnance of the miscreant.

And as, Bravus or cardw, alluded to, I'm still placing myself in the hands of He who makes no mistakes, asking Him constantly to keep me from lapsing into the worldly view of self righteousness to which I can be so prone.

But as I remember, the One Who was best at that, ended His life on this earth hanging on a cross so I wouldn't have to, something offered all who do not resist it.

Keep the faith.

"Indeed all who delight in piety and are determined to live a devoted and godly life in Christ Jesus will meet with persecution [will be made to suffer because of their religious stand]. "2 Timothy 3:12 AMPbrackets theirs' LHC

"Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us." Romans 8:37 NKJV

"What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?"Romans 8:31 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

God and the World, just do not mix.

But... I thought God created the world.

God created a perfect world. Man, with some encouragement with the underworld, decided God didn't know what He was doing and took matters into their own hands.

Then God looked over all he had made, and he saw that it was very good!And evening passed and morning came, marking the sixth day.Genesis 1:31 NLT

"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”"Genesis 2:17 NKJV

"But the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die,"Genesis 3:4 NKJV

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good (suitable, pleasant) for food and that it was delightful to look at, and a tree to be desired in order to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she gave some also to her husband, and he ate."Genesis 3:6 AMP

And thus was instituted the first hand of the blame game.

"And the man said, The woman whom You gave to be with me--she gave me [fruit] from the tree, and I ate.

And the Lord God said to the woman, What is this you have done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled (cheated, outwitted, and deceived) me, and I ate."Gen 3:12,13 AMP

Regards!

[Bravus]

I'll keep trying, for the lurkers and other readers if not for you two who seem so satisfied with yourselves. You could do with a little bruised reed non-breaking tuition from the Lord, if I may say so.

I'm 46, and have been an SDA Christian from birth. I have arrived at my current understandings about the origins of the universe in perhaps the last 10 years. So when you claim that it's those understandings that are somehow blocking my access to God, you are ignoring 3/4 of my life.

I'll say it again: I have done everything you advocate, and done it hard and long. You keep on assuming that I woke up yesterday, being who I am and knowing what I know, and started seeking God. But I have been seeking God my whole life, and doing everything you prescribe and more.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

God and the World, just do not mix.

But... I thought God created the world.

Huh. I didn't know you were a pantheist, Siv.

[SivartM]