The Universe created itself from nothing

[SivartM]

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26)

[Dr. Shane]

if you do think the Father is humanoid...

Just a comment. Humanoid means "something that has an appearance resembling a human being". If God created man in His image, then humans would be God-oids "something resembling God".

[SivartM]

Because of the Holy Spirit, God is not smaller than the universe. We believe in the triune God. I don't think any of us can fully understand the mysteries of who God is.

So only the Holy Spirit is truly transcendent and immanent; only the Holy Spirit is truly "with us"? Why is he always last on the list?

If only the Holy Spirit possesses omnipotence, then it would be the same with omniscience. If the Father is a finite being made of matter, he can only contain a finite amount of knowledge; far greater than us, maybe, but not everything.

And if the Father is finite, then maybe we can fully understand who he is.

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

if you do think the Father is humanoid...

Just a comment. Humanoid means "something that has an appearance resembling a human being". If God created man in His image, then humans would be God-oids "something resembling God".

"Theoid" sounds even better.

But I'd still like to know if this means that we physically look like God. And if God is biologically male, how are females made in his image?

[Dr. Shane]

Is this the Father in his essence or just a localization of him, like Jesus limited himself to be like us? Interesting how it says "body of light and glory"... not just "body".

There are other passages where Ellen White states the Father has a body. In one vision she specifically asked Jesus if the Father has a body and Jesus tells her yes but she cannot see it because it would consume her. As sinners, we cannot stand in the presence of the Holy Father until we are glorified. In this passage it does make reference to the Father's "form". The "body of light" covered His form so that Ellen would not be consumed.

BTW: when we use pronouns to refer to God, we capitalize them. So words like "He" "Him" "Me" "Myself", etc. are all capitalized when referring to God.

[SivartM]

There are other passages where Ellen White states the Father has a body. In one vision she specifically asked Jesus if the Father has a body and Jesus tells her yes but she cannot see it because it would consume her. As sinners, we cannot stand in the presence of the Holy Father until we are glorified. In this passage it does make reference to the Father's "form". The "body of light" covered His form so that Ellen would not be consumed.

[Dr. Shane]

And if God is biologically male, how are females made in his image?

I tend to believe that before God created Eve, Adam was neither male nor female. This is as Jesus says we will be in heaven. I do not believe God is either male of female. In this thought, when God created Eve, He made Adam a male.

[SivartM]

I tend to believe that before God created Eve, Adam was neither male nor female. This is as Jesus says we will be in heaven. I do not believe God is either male of female. In this thought, when God created Eve, He made Adam a male.

Hm... if God is neither male or female, why do we have to call him "him"?

[Dr. Shane]

So you understand that to literally mean that the Father has a physical, material body similar to ours, to which he is confined?

[SivartM]

Well, people in the Bible didn't write in English. It is proper English. It is not required in Spanish.

Proper English from centuries ago... we don't use that rule for anyone else anymore, like they did when the Bible was translated into English. Anyway, I don't think that a grammatical triviality would offend God. If my pronouns offend you, I'm sorry.

[Dr. Shane]

Hm... if God is neither male or female, why do we have to call him "him"?

I think because the Bible writers were part of a male-dominated society. But that is just a guess. Jesus referred to the Father as a "He" but we could read too much into that. Some people refer to their car as a "she" or a "he" but a car has no sexually reproductive parts. I don't think God has sexually reproductive parts either.

[SivartM]

I think because the Bible writers were part of a male-dominated society. But that is just a guess. Jesus referred to the Father as a "He" but we could read too much into that. Some people refer to their car as a "she" or a "he" but a car has no sexually reproductive parts. I don't think God has sexually reproductive parts either.

I agree with that. So do you think we could just as correctly call God "She"? (Not that I really care to call God that myself, just so you know...)

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Proper English from centuries ago..

Actually I believe the capitalization of pronouns referring to a deity was not done in old English. I do know they were doing it in the 1800s but am not sure when it started. It is normally confined to religious context. So, for example, on a Christian forum, in religious newsletter, in a church bulletin, for a research paper at a religious school or in a religious book, proper English would be to capitalize pronouns referring to a deity. An article in a secular newspaper will not normally capitalize pronouns referring to a deity.

Quote:

I don't think that a grammatical triviality would offend God. If my pronouns offend you, I'm sorry.

Please don't think I was offended or trying to criticize you. I don't think there is a moral issue surrounding the proper use of the English language. If there is, I am in trouble, because I am a terrible speller. I made the comment to you so you won't look foolish or naive. Especially now that you are studying at a Christian university. This practice is not one that is confined to Christians. People of other religions do the same thing when writing in English.

[Dr. Shane]

do you think we could just as correctly call God "She"?

I hear some people at 12-step groups call God a She and it doesn't bother me. I don't think it is any more correct or incorrect that calling God a He. I call God a He because Jesus did but... Jesus may have only been doing that because it was a male-dominated society.

The only thing that saddens me when I hear people call God a She is that typically they are doing that because in their past, someone has beat them up with God or with the Bible. They are rejecting the God of their past and thus calling their newly discovered God "She". Not all faiths teach God is a God of love as the Adventist faith does. A lot of people in other denominations really get beat up and have a warped view of God presented to them. Of course, there are Adventists that do the same thing. The difference is that when Adventists do that, they are acting contrary to the church's beliefs. When members of other denominations do it, they are acting in accordance with their denominations' beliefs.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

And if God is biologically male, how are females made in his image?

I tend to believe that before God created Eve, Adam was neither male nor female. This is as Jesus says we will be in heaven. I do not believe God is either male of female. In this thought, when God created Eve, He made Adam a male.

That's a little weird,given the inspired record.

[Aliensanctuary]

We should consider, at least, the possibility that the LORD, aka YHVH, may exist in a finite space, be able to change form, and may even resemble us to some extent, but can communicate with the universe, and at chosen times, humankind, over vast distances via the 7 Spirits of "God".

Jesus Messiah was "possessed" by one of these spirits during his lifetime, and only after his departure from Earth and arrival somewhere else, this same spirit became available to enable his disciples to perform "miracles" among humans, also. The disciples, and Jesus, of course, could not perform any miracles of healing or language translation without help. Only the Seven-fold Spirit of the LORD was/is capable of operating on a level we find so difficult to understand that we must invoke the "miraculous".

Likewise, life, and the universe, could not arise without the energizing and creative force of the Spirit---the very hands of YHVH. Perhaps, without the Spirit, YHVH would be helpless, unable to do much of anything except to think or emit intense light and heat. That's why the LORD must surround himself with many, many servants, all of whom exist to meet "his" needs and carry out "his" plans.

[BobRyan]

I think we as Christians have to be more humble in our beliefs. For many the Bible is also a "just-so story",

Alex

Actually that is not true. Claiming that an all-powerful all-knowing God created the entire universe and all of life - needs not "just so" imagination to try and manufacture some way that "all this would just so happen to happen on its own".

It is the "happens all by itself" group that has to deal in those kinds of stories. A fundamental difference from the very start - between the two opposing views on origins.

in Christ,

Bob

[SivartM]

Please don't think I was offended or trying to criticize you. I don't think there is a moral issue surrounding the proper use of the English language. If there is, I am in trouble, because I am a terrible speller. I made the comment to you so you won't look foolish or naive. Especially now that you are studying at a Christian university. This practice is not one that is confined to Christians. People of other religions do the same thing when writing in English.

Okay, good. I actually used to always write it that way, but then I decided that all it did was trip me up while I was typing; it didn't make me respect God any more.

[GreatLakesGramma]

If God is matter, he cannot be omnipresent.

You don't actually see matter; you see light.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

God is not material, or at least not in the same sense as the universe, and before the universe there was nothing material

I don't think anyone can make that conclusion. Jesus said if we saw Him, we have seen the Father. I am not exactly sure what to do with that statement but it is intriguing for sure.

I take that verse, at least in my opinion, to mean "the character of God" that what you see in me you will see in my Father.

[SivartM]

I believe God is energy.

I think that's how he presents himself. But I don't think he's really anything that is contained in the universe...

[phkrause]

The Trinity is a very hard concept to grasp and I am not sure we can fully grasp it.

Talking about the Trinity. Here's a interesting way that Tony Campolo has to say about the Trinity. "That the doctrine of the Trinity is beyond our understanding is all too obvious. We Christians make the incredible claim that God is in three persons, and yet God is one. This is not only a perplexing statement for Muslims and Jews, but most Christians have difficulty making sense of it. Certainly it is way beyond me. But then I consider water! When water is cooled to below 32 degrees Fahrenheit it becomes a solid, and we call it ice. The properties of ice are very different from the properties of water, yet the chemical formula for ice is H20, the same as it is for water. If we take water and heat it up to 212 degrees Fahrenheit it turns to steam, which is a gas. Obviously, the properties of steam are very different from the properties of water and also very different from the properties of ice. And yet, the chemical formula for steam is H2O. Isn't it strange, when we think about it, that water, ice, and steam each are very distinct, but are still essentially the same? Perhaps they will help us to understand by analogy that it is one essential God who is expressed in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."

When I read that, I thought that was a pretty good way to look at it. Anyway just thought I'd share that with all.

[Gerr]

Spontaneous generation from nothing!

Yeah, right!!!

[Stan]

even with all this I am sure God believes in Stephen Hawking.

[Aliensanctuary]

David saw the LORD, describing him as a "rock" numerous times. The fire breaking out from the LORD at times would be the fiery thrust blasting out from the bottom of his craft, sometimes destroying the enemies of Israel, including the Egyptian army, for example, by the Red Sea. This is why the LORD appears among fire and smoke to humans. Upon landing, the surface below would be glowing red hot cinders.

We all have some idea what this fiery craft/chariot looks like: 4 huge spinning, glittering, wheel complexes next to machine-like cherubim flashing back and forth, illuminated by strobe lights. This, then, is how the LORD traveled from here to there, guiding Israel to the Promised Land, riding astride a column of fire and smoke.

The Real Sanctuary, very likely a huge place located somewhere out in space, is where the LORD dwells. Where the energy and matter came from to construct stars and galaxies and planets we could only guess. Perhaps another universe, maybe the place where the LORD originally came from. Perhaps the LORD is still in another universe, managing this universe and communicating with it via the "rock statue of gleaming amber" that David saw traveling within fire and smoke and tempests across the landscape.