aldona Posted October 14, 2010 Posted October 14, 2010 Quote: EGW: "every article of clothing worn upon the person" Hi GLG. I am just trying to understand what the term "every" means to EGW and thus to us. Obviously, we must take the word of the Prophet literally. There must be no creeping compromise. Note also the use of the word "person", and the absence of any term specifying gender such as "he" or "she". That means this counsel applies equally to males and females. Thus: EVERY article of clothing worn upon the person must be suspended from the shoulders. This would include: Hat Underpants Socks/ Stockings Trousers Shoes or Boots Gloves Are your Y-fronts or your bikini briefs hanging from your shoulders? If not, you are disregarding inspired counsel. You are in BIG trouble. AJ www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne)Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each monthIMSLP/Petrucci Music LibraryThe Public Domain Music Score Library - Free Sheet Music DownloadsLooking for classical sheet music? Try IMSLP first!
Woody Posted October 14, 2010 Posted October 14, 2010 Good one Aldona. My hat's totally off for you. (If that's allowed !!) May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Dr. Rich Posted October 14, 2010 Posted October 14, 2010 Does anyone know why our LDS brothers believe in baptism for the dead?
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted October 14, 2010 Author Members Posted October 14, 2010 from what I understand, baptism is the ticket into heaven.. Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Woody Posted October 14, 2010 Posted October 14, 2010 Well folks. As I have stated ... I am not an expert on women's "undergarments" and if our prophet states something about "under clothing" and she is not referring to "under wear" then I stand corrected. You learn something every day. I guess this subject should just be considered something 'un-mentionable'. :) May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted October 14, 2010 Author Members Posted October 14, 2010 **See Post #401058** phkrause 1 Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
BSW Posted October 14, 2010 Posted October 14, 2010 Quote: Conclusion: In view of this linguistic, contextual, and theological evidence, there's no valid reason to believe 1 Cor. 15: 29 teaches that Christians should be baptized on behalf of the dead. I always thought Paul was making fun, but was probably showing the absurdity of the thought.
mrsducky Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 Yes, indeedy. I'm a Mormon in good standing. But I'm also an Adventist. It's going to be interesting to see which group I'll be selected to be with in heaven. Once upon a time I was a member of the LDS church. Not anymore. Now I know better. How do you rationalize believing two opposing sets of beliefs? Have you read what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 6:14? They believe they are to become gods in the next life. There are many places in the Bible where God says that He alone is God and there is none other. They believe that after someone dies he has an opportunity to be taught the Gospel by Jesus Himself--if a proxy baptism occurs. (I have never heard of them baptizing the living by proxy though) What about Hebrews 9:27? What about Ecclesiastes 9:5. What about their belief that Lucifer had a prominent and positive role in the plan of salvation? I found that I could not support LDS beliefs from the Bible and so I left and became a SDA. If it were only a question of fellowship, I would probably still be there; but the truth is of far greater worth than straddling the fence. phkrause 1
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted November 10, 2010 Author Members Posted November 10, 2010 How do you rationalize believing two opposing sets of beliefs? They aren't opposing beliefs...both have a prophet; both are health-oriented; both have a "family focus"; both send out missionaries.... but I *do* have to try to get over the fact that one of my ancestors was the trigger man in the murder of Joseph Smith. But then again, I'm Jewish on my mom's side of the house. But then, what do I do about the fact that my great grandfather was the first Methodist Circuit rider in the Pacific NW? Oh dear... and I completely forgot that my aunt is Catholic. Ooops...my cousin is Mennonite. Oh heck, another cousin is Lutheran. **sigh** And another aunt is Baptist. Wait a minute, now...my grandfather was a 33rd degree Scottish Rite Mason. ohhh...decisions, decisions, decisions.... Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Moderators John317 Posted November 10, 2010 Moderators Posted November 10, 2010 Does anyone know why our LDS brothers believe in baptism for the dead? Certainly. They believe the dead are alive and know more than they did while in the flesh. They also beleive that the dead have an opportunity after this present life to make a decision whether to be saved. Their baptism by proxy doesn't mean they are automatically saved but it only means they have a chance to be saved if they want it. Their belief is based almost entirely upon the idea of the immortality of the soul and upon a misunderstanding of 1 Cor. 15: 29. "Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?" Notice that Paul here does not say either who is baptizing for the dead or that baptism for the dead is a Christian practice that people should do. He merely states that baptizing for the dead proves that those who do it anticipate a resurrection of the dead. There's also the fact that the preposition translated "for the dead" could be translated as meaning "in view of" or "concerning" the dead. In any case, it is a mistake to believe that baptism for the dead is a doctrine supported by the Apostle Paul. Paul did not believe or teach that the dead are conscious or that they go directly to their reward. Therefore it is not possible for the apostle Paul to have intended for us to believe he was saying we should baptize for the dead. There's absolutely no basis for such a belief any more than there is for belief in Sunday worship. Both false beliefs are the result of what Peter described as the "untaught and unstable" "twisting the Scriptures to their own destruction." It should be a warning to all, but tragically many foolishly reject the Holy Spirit's warning and persist in going on as cattle to the slaughter. phkrause 1 John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 10, 2010 Moderators Posted November 10, 2010 Once upon a time I was a member of the LDS church. Not anymore. Now I know better. Can I ask for how long? I study Mormonism for the purpose of helping Mormons and I have some Mormon friends, especially one man I've been in contact with for about 4 years via email and FB. I recently sent him a link to read on the Investigative Judgment. Personally I can't see how they seriously believe the Book of Mormon and the other shorter books, such as the one by Abraham. Even the Mormon account of how Joseph Smith "translated" those books sounds highly, highly suspicious. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 10, 2010 Moderators Posted November 10, 2010 They aren't opposing beliefs...both have a prophet; both are health-oriented; both have a "family focus"; both send out missionaries.... But the message they carry and teach is quite different, just as Mrs. White and Joseph Smith are completely different in their views of God and the gospel. The purpose of our health message is different from the purpose of the Mormon's view of health. Ours is closely connected to the Third Angels Messages and Christ's return. Our missionaries are also very different in their messages than those of Mormon missionaries. phkrause 1 John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted November 10, 2010 Moderators Posted November 10, 2010 Conclusion: In view of this linguistic, contextual, and theological evidence, there's no valid reason to believe 1 Cor. 15: 29 teaches that Christians should be baptized on behalf of the dead. Originally Posted By: BSW I always thought Paul was making fun, but was probably showing the absurdity of the thought. No, Paul was serious, but he is simply making the point that there were those who anticipated the resurrection and they proved it by being baptized for the dead. Such an act was proof that they believed in life beyond death. But notice that Paul doesn't say it was correct to baptize for the dead. He merely states that people were doing it. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
mrsducky Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 Originally Posted By: mrsducky Once upon a time I was a member of the LDS church. Not anymore. Now I know better. Can I ask for how long? I study Mormonism for the purpose of helping Mormons and I have some Mormon friends, especially one man I've been in contact with for about 4 years via email and FB. I recently sent him a link to read on the Investigative Judgment. My late husband and I joined the LDS church about 1996. We were baptized members for about a couple of years or so. I had attended the LDS church as a non member for some time prior to that because of friendships I had there. I was raised a SDA but had gone away from it. I never could get into the Book of Mormon--too many inconsistencies with the Bible. One evening after Darrel had gone to bed I was reading Doctrine and Covenants and I felt a deep sorrow. It is one of the few times in my life when I knew that the Holy Spirit was speaking to me. There was a strong impression (no guilt trip) that I was hurting my Heavenly Father. That is when I left the LDS church and came back to the Lord. Mormons are wonderful, sincere people and if that is all that mattered I'd still be there. But it isn't. It isn't about comparing LDS doctrines to SDA doctrines or practices. It is about comparing LDS and SDA doctrines with the BIBLE (there's only one match). It became impossible for me to twist and rationalize LDS beliefs to make them line up with the Bible. It was dishonest. So I stopped. Darrel left with me and studied and became a SDA. He died a firm believer in 2003. But that's another story. It is so amazing to see how God works things out in our lives! Well, that's way more than you asked. phkrause 1
Moderators John317 Posted November 10, 2010 Moderators Posted November 10, 2010 Wow! Praise God, mrsducky. I know what you say is true because I've been closely comparing the literature published by both churches over the last 10 years. It's really wonderful that the Lord spoke to your heart that way. Thanks for writing that testimony. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted November 10, 2010 Author Members Posted November 10, 2010 Originally Posted By: rudywoofs They aren't opposing beliefs...both have a prophet; both are health-oriented; both have a "family focus"; both send out missionaries.... But the message they carry and teach is quite different, just as Mrs. White and Joseph Smith are completely different in their views of God and the gospel. The purpose of our health message is different from the purpose of the Mormon's view of health. Ours is closely connected to the Third Angels Messages and Christ's return. Our missionaries are also very different in their messages than those of Mormon missionaries. I thought everyone knew it was tic. The topic title is tic...I thought that was very obvious. Guess not... As my father used to say, "never assume anything..." I don't see the Adventist "health message" as being closely connected to the Three Angels' Messages and Christ's return... Specifically, what part of the Three Angels' Message is related to health issues?? And don't quote EGW. Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Twilight Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 I don't see the Adventist "health message" as being closely connected to the Three Angels' Messages and Christ's return... Specifically, what part of the Three Angels' Message is related to health issues?? And don't quote EGW. Fear God and give Glory to Him... Is all encompassing and includes the health message. Consider this: 1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1Cr 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. The best wisdom is always second hand...
Moderators John317 Posted November 10, 2010 Moderators Posted November 10, 2010 ...I don't see the Adventist "health message" as being closely connected to the Three Angels' Messages and Christ's return... Specifically, what part of the Three Angels' Message is related to health issues?? And don't quote EGW. The Three Angels Messages call for us to fear God and glorify the One who made our bodies, keeping all the commandments of God. We can't glorify the Creator of our bodies if we're not doing whatever we can to keep those bodies in good health. One of those commandments is to take care of our body, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit. One reason it is espcially and vitally important in our time is that we need to have clear minds because Satan's deceptions are more intense and cunning than they have ever been before. Another reason God emphasizes health at this time is that He wants His people to stay alive and be in good health so they can help warn and prepare the world for Christ's return. phkrause 1 John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted November 10, 2010 Author Members Posted November 10, 2010 I don't practice Mormon beliefs. I believe in the Three Angels' Messages. I believe in the health message (whatever that is). I believe in God. I believe in Christ. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I believe EGW was inspired on occasion. I believe in the entire Bible. I believe in baptism by immersion. I believe that there will be people from other religions and/or belief systems who will be saved. I believe that God accepts our best efforts. I believe that Satan is very deceptive. Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Paula Posted November 12, 2010 Posted November 12, 2010 Wow Mrs. Ducky!! Great Testimony!!! One of my best friends is Mormon. My husband and I studied with her and her family for a couple of years (them trying to convert us, and we them). In the end she said to me, "If I were to just look at the Bible, then the SDA church is right! No church I have ever seen comes as close to basing ALL their beliefs on the Bible as you SDA do... but I don't believe that the Bible is the only word of God... I believe that it has been altered, and is no longer Pure, and that the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of truth, and based on that, and the testimony I received (the "burning in the bosom" feeling they feel when they pray and ask God if the Book of Mormon is true) I believe the Mormon church is true. But if I were basing it strictly on the Bible, I'd have to become SDA. UGH!!!! So CLOSE!!!!! I have to say this though.. they are sincere, LOVELY LOVELY LOVELY people! I've been to church with them, hosted their elders (missionaries) for Sabbath lunch (the missionaries even joined us for church one Sabbath). Funny story.. once she told me she often wondered how I'd react the I die when I find myself in the "spirit world"! LOL.. I told her I'd be so shocked I'd die... lol!! Anyways... talking to a Mormon (especially one from birth) is like speaking to someone who speaks in a completely different language. It is impossible to find common ground, because they are taught that anytime their doctrines diverge from the Bible, it is because the Bible has been altered, and is wrong in that instance. Therefore, they are NEVER WRONG!! So it is nearly impossible (apart from a powerful working of the Holy Spirit) to convert a Mormon.
Overaged Posted November 12, 2010 Posted November 12, 2010 That is absolutely amazing how God spoke to you through His Spirit...Thanks for this testimony. "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Moderators John317 Posted November 12, 2010 Moderators Posted November 12, 2010 My late husband and I joined the LDS church about 1996. We were baptized members for about a couple of years or so. ..... It became impossible for me to twist and rationalize LDS beliefs to make them line up with the Bible. It was dishonest. So I stopped. Darrel left with me and studied and became a SDA. He died a firm believer in 2003. But that's another story. It is so amazing to see how God works things out in our lives! I think it would be great if you were to write a testimony for Mormons to read about your experience. There are no doubt other former SDAs among them who might be influened by it. phkrause 1 John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
mrsducky Posted November 12, 2010 Posted November 12, 2010 I don't practice Mormon beliefs. I believe in the Three Angels' Messages. I believe in the health message (whatever that is). I believe in God. I believe in Christ. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I believe EGW was inspired on occasion. I believe in the entire Bible. I believe in baptism by immersion. I believe that there will be people from other religions and/or belief systems who will be saved. I believe that God accepts our best efforts. I believe that Satan is very deceptive. I believe that God remembers how we are made (Psalm 103:14) and accepts us knowing our weaknesses and knowing our hearts. I believe Ellen White without qualification. I don't understand everything in Scripture and Spirit of Prophecy but I understand enough of it to believe it is true. I also do not believe that only SDAs will be saved. If one knows better and clings to aberrant beliefs (even in jest) it is dangerous. John 12:35
Moderators John317 Posted November 12, 2010 Moderators Posted November 12, 2010 I also do not believe that only SDAs will be saved. If one knows better and clings to aberrant beliefs (even in jest) it isdangerous. John 12:35 You got that right, mrsducky. SDAs will be far outnumbered in heaven. In fact, I think it likely that most people in heaven will have to take a class from Jesus on the Sabbath because most of them may be Sunday-keepers and some never will have even known of the Sabbath. phkrause 1 John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted November 12, 2010 Author Members Posted November 12, 2010 Originally Posted By: rudywoofs I don't practice Mormon beliefs. I believe in the Three Angels' Messages. I believe in the health message (whatever that is). I believe in God. I believe in Christ. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I believe EGW was inspired on occasion. I believe in the entire Bible. I believe in baptism by immersion. I believe that there will be people from other religions and/or belief systems who will be saved. I believe that God accepts our best efforts. I believe that Satan is very deceptive. I believe that God remembers how we are made (Psalm 103:14) and accepts us knowing our weaknesses and knowing our hearts. I believe Ellen White without qualification. I don't understand everything in Scripture and Spirit of Prophecy but I understand enough of it to believe it is true. I also do not believe that only SDAs will be saved. If one knows better and clings to aberrant beliefs (even in jest) it is dangerous. John 12:35 Mrsducky. I get the impression that you somehow think I'm involved with the Mormon church. I'M NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please get that through your head. And quit trying to proselytize me. I don't like it. I don't need it. You can believe what you want to believe. I can believe what *I* want to believe. You don't KNOW what I believe, because, apparently, you did not read what you quoted me as writing. Egads. What a monstrosity of a thread this has turned into. It started out so well, and you turned it into a theological extravaganza what with your boasting about not being a ... what? 2 year Mormon?.... That hardly qualifies you as an expert in LDS beliefs and customs. And your "unqualified" belief in Ellen White is not rational. She was human - not God. Believe it or not, the Lord's Prayer does not go as follows: "Our Ellen, who art the Adventist prophet, hallowed be thy name." If it sounds like I'm annoyed....guess what? You're right. Hmmph. Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
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