The elephant in the room

[Stan]

In reading another thread, the really question is this

IF there is a God, a loving God, why is there pain, suffering, death, genocide, child abuse, animal abuse and more...

Why does it call for someone to be stoned for picking up sticks on the wrong day, yet widespread abuse goes unpunished.

I appreciate CARDW for addressing this issue.

[BobRyan]

Adam and Eve suffered moral depravity at the fall in Eden and according to Romans 3 "there is no one who seeks after God". The sinful nature does more than offer "opportunity" for evil - it desires evil.

By contrast - proximity (closeness) to the presence of God - results in judgment executed much more swiftly than when one is living far from the presence of God.

God says in Ezek 14 that when people live with their idols at a distance from God - he leaves them alone. Annanias and Saphira are not killed until they step into the presence of Peter.

Israel in rebellion against God - is not judged and some even killed until Moses comes down from Mount Sinai with the Ten Commandments and face all aglow.

God says that He will "draw near for judgment".

Sin and rebellion do not survive in the presence of God.

God allows our "distance" that we might have time to turn from sin, claim the promise of the Holy Spirit, the New Birth, the New Creation where old things pass away and all things become new. Yet at a "distance" from God there is "suffering" because everyone else out here is living "at a distance from God" and at a "distance" from the law of Love - doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.

in Christ,

Bob

[Stan]

Not sure I explained the issue correct.

[Twilight]

I think the real question is, can we trust God has been loving all along?

[Twilight]

And is there a basis for that trust?

[Dr. Rich]

It has been said of pets, (and people too I suppose), if you love them, let them go and if they choose to come back and be with you, then there is mutual love. (But, if they don't come back, hunt them down and kill them!) Hmmm?

Back about 25 years ago, Maxwells SS class at Loma Linda was well attended and he too brought up this same question. But his question was a little different. Does/did God say, "Love me or I will kill you"? What came out of this class was that God had to give all of us the power to choose to love Him-or not. He could have made us robots, but a robot could not choose to love someone back.

He even went out of His way to show us what He would do for us IF we chose to obey His commands. He then gave two roads to go down, one is the road of life, the other is death. He said the one to life is narrow and few will be on it, but the one that is like a 6 lane freeway filled with parked cars is the wide road to destruction. Yes, He did give all a fair warning!

[teresaq]

they are great questions and i dont believe God minds in the least if we go to Him and ask, "WHY!?!"

well at least He hasnt zapped me yet. in fact He still talks to me the same as He always did. and is still there for me.

[doug yowell]

Amidst the suffering is a fundamental goodness that continues to permeate the human exixtence. Suffering interrupts our enjoyment of the "normal" life. We give little recognition to God's "good" discisions our focus seems chained to the evil that He allows.Pain seems to (understandably)do that. Why is the attending question rarely asked;given our sinful condition, why do we experience so much good? Are there things we just couldn't understand even if God were to explain them to us?Does the pursuit of our questions lead us to trust more or doubt more?

[fccool]

The more I thought on the subject, the more I thought of a couple possibilities.

1. We misunderstand "love"

We define it against modern dictionaries and modern ideology. We are used to love "feel good". So, "loving surgeon, or loving dentist" would be a foreign concept by such definition?

If you really think about it, the suffering in this world is not caused by men... it's cause by God. Yes, you may think it's an uncomfortable thought, but it was not sin that expelled men from the garden of Eden, and subsequently cursed the ground so that men would feed from the hard work, and made women receive children in pain. ONE ACT OF DISOBEDIENCE DOES NOT CARRY ANY MAGICAL ATTRIBUTES. We talk about that event as though one act produced all of these results, instead of understanding what such act meant and the implications, whether literally or symbolically, or both.

I will repeat again, when you tell your first lie... nothing magical transpires in the world that turns it for the worst. The lie may have soft or hard consequences, but there's not magic behind it that spreads through the land and turns in into desert. Yet, this is what we ascribe to first sin of humanity.

So, so far we have:

1) Humans disobeyed 1 command

2) God punished them by making their lives harder

There are a number of questions about that, perhaps with limited background information... which makes it rather a questionable act. I mean, would you kick your kids out of the house for trying drugs, and tell them that from now on they would have to find a job and make their own end meet? But, the situation is even more severe than that.

EVEN BEFORE THEY WERE BORN... YOU KNOW THAT THEY WILL TRY DRUGS... but you let them learn the hard way and decide not to protect them from consequences. From perspective of a human parent this would be idiotic. Even more idiotic would seem the idea of parent permitting the drug dealer to tempt his kids, even when they have power to jail them. YET, THIS IS THE UNAVOIDABLE REALITY.

1) God permitted the lack of knowledge to play its course

2) God kicked his kids out and make them learn the hard way

Perhaps, it would put God in the wrong, BUT... what if this was for a reason? What reason can suffering serve? Many people find the idea of intentional suffering revolting, yet the same people have no problem with idea of a bootcamp, or athletes who torture themselves for the sake of improvement.

I think we misunderstand "love", and we certainly misunderstand "suffering". Which sort of brings me to the next point. I was trying to find a place in the Bible where it says that we are created to worship God. I thought that it would be out of His character. Would any parent have children so that they constantly pointed to them for all of their accomplishments? I know parents like that, and it's sort of disgusting to look at. They get offended if they don't get all of the praise, and they really can't stand when someone else's kid is doing better... so it's constant discontent and pushing their kids till no end. That's how we view God. A capricious parent who wants all of the glory. It's stupid!!!! God is not a rock star!

God created the world because love requires expression. Love is an act of expression. You can't create something for the purpose of worshiping you, and then call it love! Our churches are built on a lie... a lie that we should come together once a week and sing and listen to one guy speak for an hour because that's what God wants us to do ... and that's what we were created for... to worship God. I mean, seriously? Is God that immature? Can't we see through this? We spend billions annually to "worship" God (not counting the endless time of volunteers)... do you really think that's the will of God?

So, here's my take on it, as uncomfortable as it may seem.

1) The Eden decision WAS NOT a propagation of "sin nature" that corrupted everything on Earth by means of single decision. The Eden was a symbolic decision to "do things on our own". As parents, we have the concept of "obeying the rules in my house". Likewise, that was the concept of God, only with one rule.

2) The result of the broken rule was expulsion from the parent's home into the condition where they would have to act and think as they choose, but likewise work for their own bread and shelter.

3) God knew that it would transpire, and He knew the eventual consequences of "kicking the humanity out", but He decided to go through it. Why would such actions deem necessary? I think think the answer is that the way back to God is realization that suffering is the inevitable result of loss of God's guidance and provision.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If there are no sufferings, are there blessings?

[skyblue888]

By reading your post, fcool, somehow I get the impression that God is harsh, unforgiving, even a tyran.

I understand your logic brother but I question it for it makes Satan and fallen men look better than God Himself.

Here in Quebec for many years we were entertained by a very gifted man who could make people laugh and laugh and laugh. This man really made us think twice just about every topic under the sun until in an interview he was asked if he only had one wish, what would he like to be, and he said, "God." He was asked why and his answer was, "Why, look around you! If I were God I believe I could do a lot better."

All this is based on ignorance of who God really is. And this is why the Scriptures tell us that "Darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the people." Isaiah 60:2.

And the devil is laughing harder and louder by the minute.

sky