Freedom from the Enemy's Control

[phkrause]

Some excellent posts rudywoofs.

[cardw]

Actually, I *do* wish a nice life. I didn't write it as a joke.

Secondly, I "wasn't" going to engage in a discussion with you. But you questioned my knowledge of the Piezo effect, MRI, radiologic, and other *scientifically* documented data. I am quite knowledgeable in this. I wanted to make that very clear.

I'm not sure how I questioned your scientific knowledge and what that has to do with anything.

What I did note is that you implied that I was perverse and was pontificating. This was followed by your statement to have a nice life.

That seemed like sarcasm. I didn't take it as a joke.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I'm not sure how I questioned your scientific knowledge and what that has to do with anything.

See below:

Originally Posted By: cardw

I happen to believe that anyone who says they have a handle on these types of phenomenon is not aware of the complexity. And this includes saying that the devil is responsible.

Originally Posted By: cardw

What I did note is that you implied that I was perverse and was pontificating.

Pontificate: : to speak or express opinions in a pompous or dogmatic way.

As to whether or not you are a pervert, I do not know, nor did I state that you were. And unless you care to enlighten the forum on that matter, I don't really think anyone wants to know.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I'm not sure how I questioned your scientific knowledge and what that has to do with anything.

See below:

Originally Posted By: cardw

I happen to believe that anyone who says they have a handle on these types of phenomenon is not aware of the complexity. And this includes saying that the devil is responsible.

So are you saying you have a handle on this?

And if you are, how do you determine that it's the devil and not some natural side effect of trauma?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I'm not sure how I questioned your scientific knowledge and what that has to do with anything.

Why are you interested now, when you don't think it "has to do with anything"?

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to waste my time sparring with you anymore. I put forth my opinion regarding the OP. Glean from it what you will. If you find no merit, and you apparently don't, then toss it aside.

[Twilight]

I support you in your continued fight for the truth in these matters Olger.

Do not give way to those that want to diminish your warnings.

[Twilight]

Don't let negativity push you from responding on these threads Rudywoofs.

When someone attacks your argument, stand your ground and in Christ explain your position.

The truth you are teaching on these points will be much stronger then.

We are to put on the full armour of God and "stand". :-)

[Woody]

Quote:

I happen to believe that anyone who says they have a handle on these types of phenomenon is not aware of the complexity. And this includes saying that the devil is responsible.

Well ... I believe the Devil is responsible for all things that go wrong. He is responsible for ALL evil. For if he hadn't fallen .... we would not be in this mess. And now that we are in it ... he wants us to wallow in the mess of sin. So he is enjoying our troubles.

But , I do believe that we blame him a little to much. I go along with some of your thought here Rich. I think there could be other factors involved rather than a direct assult from the Devil. And you have outlined some good ones. And as you say .... we probably don't have a complete handle on this.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I'm not sure how I questioned your scientific knowledge and what that has to do with anything.

Why are you interested now, when you don't think it "has to do with anything"?

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to waste my time sparring with you anymore. I put forth my opinion regarding the OP. Glean from it what you will. If you find no merit, and you apparently don't, then toss it aside.

Well, I'm not sure what you are saying exactly.

I didn't know it was a crime to be interested in something.

I just want to know how you know it's the Devil doing it.

[cardw]

Pontificate: : to speak or express opinions in a pompous or dogmatic way.

As to whether or not you are a pervert, I do not know, nor did I state that you were.

[cardw]

All of this fear about this long list of nominal practices is familiar. Ellen White made the same mistake with her prediction that the Fox Sisters were the beginnings of Spiritualism. She said that the knocks were the work of Satan.

In Great Controversy Ellen White writes, "The mysterious rapping with which modern spiritualism began was not the result of human trickery or cunning, but was the direct work of evil angels, who thus introduced one of the most successful of soul-destroying delusions." Great Controversy, p. 553

She claimed she had a vision from God telling her the rappings were produced by the power of Satan:

"August 24, 1850, I saw that the "mysterious rapping" was the power of Satan; some of it was directly from him, and some indirectly, through his agents, but it all proceeded from Satan." Early Writings, p. 59

She even made a prophecy about the rappings:

"I saw that soon it would be considered blasphemy to speak against the rapping, and that it would spread more and more, that Satan's power would increase and some of his devoted followers would have power to work miracles and even to bring down fire from heaven in the sight of men." Early Writings, p. 59

The sisters clearly demonstrated and confessed that the rapping noises were very human produced. And it was never considered blasphemy to speak out against them since Harry Houdini aggressively spoke out against them. And no one called fire down from heaven.

If you want more detail you can read this detailed article.

Just more typical Ellen White fear tactics.

[Twilight]

All of this fear about this long list of nominal practices is familiar. Ellen White made the same mistake with her prediction that the Fox Sisters were the beginnings of Spiritualism. She said that the knocks were the work of Satan.

In Great Controversy Ellen White writes, "The mysterious rapping with which modern spiritualism began was not the result of human trickery or cunning, but was the direct work of evil angels, who thus introduced one of the most successful of soul-destroying delusions." Great Controversy, p. 553

She claimed she had a vision from God telling her the rappings were produced by the power of Satan:

"August 24, 1850, I saw that the "mysterious rapping" was the power of Satan; some of it was directly from him, and some indirectly, through his agents, but it all proceeded from Satan." Early Writings, p. 59

She even made a prophecy about the rappings:

"I saw that soon it would be considered blasphemy to speak against the rapping, and that it would spread more and more, that Satan's power would increase and some of his devoted followers would have power to work miracles and even to bring down fire from heaven in the sight of men." Early Writings, p. 59

The sisters clearly demonstrated and confessed that the rapping noises were very human produced. And it was never considered blasphemy to speak out against them since Harry Houdini aggressively spoke out against them. And no one called fire down from heaven.

If you want more detail you can read this detailed article.

Just more typical Ellen White fear tactics.

The knockings where from Satan...

One could be led by Satan to fake these instances as in the case of the Fox Sisters.

I believe you are reading this with a clear bias against the ministry of EG White. :-)

Therefore rendering the most extreme interpretation of her writings, where a careful considered reading will of course show that she did not overstate anything.

[John317]

I think there could be other factors involved rather than a direct assult from the Devil.

Yes, of course. There are lots of different factors involved. If the devil died today, humans would continue to have many of the same problems because humans are are fallen and therefore have an evil, sinful nature. I think history proves that humans have great potential for evil. We have great potential for good, too, but I think anyone is foolish to reject the idea of evil supernatural forces in the world. I find the Bible's explanation for the way humanity and the world is to be completely in harmony with what I've seen during my lifetime.

Ephes. 6:12

For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

[John317]

(quoting): "I saw that soon it would be considered blasphemy to speak against the rapping, and that it would spread more and more, that Satan's power would increase and some of his devoted followers would have power to work miracles and even to bring down fire from heaven in the sight of men." Early Writings, p. 59

The sisters clearly demonstrated and confessed that the rapping noises were very human produced. And it was never considered blasphemy to speak out against them since Harry Houdini aggressively spoke out against them. And no one called fire down from heaven.

You show that you have some misunderstandings of what Ellen White said here.

The sisters "confessed" but you don't know if this so-called confession was true or not. Many "confessions" are false.

The fact is that since that time, there has been a very great increase in what is called spiritualism and the occult.

Ellen White never said that no one would speak out against the rappings. She said that it would be considered blasphemy by some people for others to speak out against the rappings. By rappings, she doesn't simply mean the rappings that these girl heard, but the spirtualistic phenomina that has happened since that time.

Satan's power is certainly increasing and has increased dramatically since those times. This has been well documented in many books about the occult and spiritualism.

The bringing down of fire from heaven will happen a short time before Christ returns as spiritualism continues to grow in popularity.

Herbert Douglass wrote an excellent book on Ellen White in which he discusses this very topic. It's in his book, well worth reading, on the visions of Ellen White.

[BobRyan]

There was a point in the 1880's where Ellen White stated that the long looked for event - that had been long doubted by naysayers was about to happen. Then later she said that the time had come and gone -- as Israel was in the dessert for 40 years so she said "we may be many years" delayed due to lack of acceptance of God's plan in that regard.

Now we know that Ellen White's end-time scenario calls for "gods many and lords many" as Paul says in 1Cor 10. But in that ending scenario Satan is given much more freedom and control than he has ever been given in the past (as Paul points out in 2Thess 2) such that "heathen deities display themselves before the cities of the world" and people claim that "angels walk among us" claiming to be in the millennium.

Thus her statements about the "rappings" (spirit manifestations) getting to the point of being considered "blasphemy", is in the context of that contracted scenario where Satan would have been given almost unlimitted control in the 1880's -

Context is everything.

in Christ,

Bob

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: Cardw

If you want more detail you can read this detailed article.

Just more typical Ellen White fear tactics.

The knockings where from Satan...

[John317]

That's true, Bob. That's a good and important point. Christ could have come in the early 1890s, and actually before that, if the church had united and given the gospel message under the power of the Latter Rain.

[John317]

And if this is the workings of the most intelligent created being in the universe then I guess god's bar for brains is pretty low.

You don't know for a fact that the spirits didn't make those rapping noises. I can't prove it, either, but I will take the word of Ellen White any day over someone writing about it 150 years later.

All you have going for you is that those girls claimed to have lied over and over again. And if they are liars, why do you trust what they say?

Liars make dishonest confessions all the time; and if they were working together with Satan (whom I know you don't believe exists), it stands to reason they would lie, because the devil himself is the father of lies.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

And if this is the workings of the most intelligent created being in the universe then I guess god's bar for brains is pretty low.

You don't know for a fact that the spirits didn't make those rapping noises.