Vague and Ambiguous Christianity

[fccool]

I find this issue clouding my mind further and further lately. I find myself listening to a lot of statements with no clear explanations or definitions lately, that I can't help by to analyze and question.

I'd like to walk over to the people who say "amen" to anything that sounds spiritual, and then ask them... what do you think it means?

There are many examples of such vague Christianity, because we don't define any boundaries at all as to what is and what is not... so at times it seems that anything goes and warrants a unanimous "amen", as long as it is ambiguously "spiritual".

Example:

We've had a female speaker speaking on the subject of being a friend with God. She was mentioning that morning after morning she has a "conversation with God"... in that instance

God: Please be my friend

Her: God, I am your friend, you know that

day2

God: Please be my friend

Her: God, I am your friend.

Then she proceeded to tell the story of people in the Bible to whom God spoke face-to-face, and especially Moses who spoke to God directly and was then spokesman for God to Israel.

I wanted to ask her... do you speak to God the way Moses did? What does it mean to speak to God? Do you hear voices in your head? What does it mean? In our days it sort of becomes the ultimate Christian pursuit... to be in a "RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD". To be "In love" with God. And we define it on a human level.

Then it sort of hit me that no one in this church has the kind relationship with God that Moses did. I've yet to hear someone to stand up and say...

"I spoke to God face to face, and He directly and clearly told me to do something in a Vocal manner, and not a by a feeling or vague dream".

I find a lot of "God moved me to, or God told me", but did He really? It's very ambiguous, unclear and vague. It's inconclusive and unclear. We can ascribe to God just about anything in that manner, but what if God does not desire such outcome, and the voice was your own?

So, it really bothers me that we don't have such honesty to say that I'm praying and I don't really hear voices speaking to me, and I don't experience any "feelings". And that perhaps God does not act in a way that we expect Him to act today. Perhaps he delegates a lot of things to us, and we just drop the ball by trying to pretend to seem spiritual and reading from the movie script that we supposed to act out when we "become Christian"?

I'll never forget one lady standing up and saying that she is praising the Lord for her brother who personally knows his guardian angel, and he knows his name and he talks to him. She felt inferior because she did not know her angel, and thus she only wished to have such relationship with God that her brother did.

And we have exaggerated stories that continue to fill the church, because anything really goes... and our spiritual experience becomes such that we end up chancing the wind.

I don't think that no matter how hard I try, and how hard I listen or pray, or study the Bible, or desire a relationship... that I will see a vision of God, or hear his voice in the same way that Moses did. It seems to me that God does not work in such manner. He conveys us a certain information in conceptual manner in a way that we would not be too encapsulated in our search for the opiate of the "spiritual high". I find it to be quite empty, unfulfilled and dangerous. Mainly because then anything goes, no matter how illogical and insane it sounds... it warrants an "amen" and "praise the lord".

Perhaps, when we realize that, we can all get out of our shell and be more honest and real, instead of exaggerating our spiritual experience to an impossible and vague levels by reducing these to "feelings" and stories of "God's work in our life".

I'll likewise never forget the story of two hikers who got down into a ravine full of water, and then could not get out and had to pray for the rescue team, which was sent and it was "God's protection". Not it was not! It was your stupidity, and the rescue team doing their job after they've been called to do so by your relatives who declared you missing. No need to super-spiritualize the story!

[Twilight]

The bible is littered with spiritual revelations that go beyond the more obvious manifestation of God to Moses.

Jesus said:

"I always hear your voice." (paraphrase)

God leads me personally, learning to recognise His voice is a foundational part of Christianity.

Yes it has its dangers, but it is most fulfilling having a "walk with God", at a spiritual and intimate level.

Do you think you might be taking a fear of extremes and applying it to a genuine experience that many have?

Mark :-)

[fccool]

I'm not disputing that God hears and knows our needs. What I'm talking about is the disambiguating the reality from the exaggerated ambiguity. It's very vague and unclear, and it seams that it can mean a 1000 different things.

Can you really know the name of your guardian angel? Is it something that we are to do?

Should we ascribe everything that goes our way to God's protection or "act of God" as an experience? I.E. I've prayed and God sent me some money through IRS refund, or late client finally paying. Should we really super-spiritualize these experiences that this sort of thins become "God's expression and answers to prayer".... or "our walking with God".

How do you know that certain act is done by God, and other act is done by the Devil? Maybe God is trying to correct you, or Devil trying to lead you astray?

But, it makes people sound "spiritual" and "close to God", when God "answers your prayer" through "miraculous happening" that perhaps would happen even if you did not pray, or even if you were not a Christian.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

It sounds *fishy* to me if someone says they can actually "talk" with their guardian angel, not to mention even knowing the angel's name - makes me wonder *what* "angel" is speaking/being spoken to... Same thing goes for someone who says they talk to God "face-to-face"....even Moses didn't do that. He shielded his face.

I have the same feeling about good things that happen which would have happened even if no prayers had been given. It's sort of like having pneumonia, being given antibiotics, then saying "God healed me." I don't know....kind of a conundrum. I think God gives people the means to do/invent good things, and we can make use of them.

One time in college, a classmate hadn't studied for the test we took. I studied my brains out, and got a "B"...my classmate got an "A," and she attributed it to the fact that she prayed to God to help her with the test. That really irked me. It was like saying that it's okay not to study because God will help you get a good grade. That being said, it is also possible to get the same results by practicing Magick. It's also possible that it could be coincidence of good guessing. **shrugs**

One needs discernment, discernment, discernment. Am I on God's side? Do I study His Word? Do I have hope in Jesus? Do I do the best with what I know and have experienced?

[nuff sed]

I sure would like to ask my guardian angel if he had help when he picked my car up out of a ditch and set it down on the road (long story)...nuff sed

[JawgeFromJawja]

I have the same feeling about good things that happen which would have happened even if no prayers had been given. It's sort of like having pneumonia, being given antibiotics, then saying "God healed me." I don't know....kind of a conundrum. I think God gives people the means to do/invent good things, and we can make use of them.

Ambrose Pare, a very devout 16th century French Army Surgeon, gives us the proper answer to this conundrum:

"I treated the patient. God healed him."

Pare had a long, happy, productive life, providing multiple innovations in medicine and surgery.

Actually, antibiotics do not cure anything. It is always the body that heals any disorder, through God. Antibiotics reduce the bacterial population of an infection (and unfortunately, reduce beneficial microbes in the rest of the body ). Then the body has a better shot at wiping out the infection.

JawgeFromJawja, retired physician.

[cardw]

I think it's great that you are using your ability to think critically.

When I was much younger I took all these stories seriously and fully expected to have similar experiences when I grew older.

Like you I couldn't tell if things were god's hand or simply natural consequences of a person's choices and reactions.

It used to bug me when people would sing this beautiful song and end by saying it was all god. They must of had something to do with the musical performance.

These types of things don't seem honest because they tend to exaggerate. I purposed to not accept anything that I couldn't verify to be true. I wanted to pursue what was true. For if I was going to claim that god was working in my life, I wanted to be sure I knew that.

My journey lead me to the honest conclusion that I didn't really know. Hence I am agnostic.

Now that doesn't preclude transcendental experiences. It just means that I don't know the source of those. These are very real to me and have come out of many experiences including suffering. The inner life is a rich one that unfolds more and more as one gets older.

Now my goal isn't to convince you that Christianity is true or false because I know a number of honest friends who engage in this transcendent connection through their Christian beliefs. And we have a lot of common ground because we are talking from realities. And they accept that I am atheist when it comes to the god of the Bible because they know I have honestly pursued the truth of that. They understand that I'm not just trying to get away with something, but have very good reasons why I don't believe in Jesus and all that implies.

I respect their reasons because it very obviously produces very real results. They engage in the greater community with an obvious passion and empathy. They are very easy people to be with and it is quite obvious that they love people deeply. I don't happen to think they are this way because they are Christian because I have non-Christian friends with the same life expression.

What they all have in common is some version of the following principles.

The principles that I have found work and I remind myself every day, are the following.

Never lie to yourself. "To thine own self be true."

Engage in life by letting go of outcomes. You can't control them anyway.

Pursue what is true and never claim to know things you don't know.

Be willing to investigate with curiosity, but be skeptical until you see the results.

Basically commit to rigorous honesty. It will make you much happier.

Know what a deal breaker is. That is, know when to walk away. Your gut is very good at letting you know.

If I'm in emotional pain, I'm probably focusing on myself. Empathy is a much happier focus.

You can't figure out what you really want, you have to feel and experience what you want and knowing what you really want is good. It's the only way I know of finding my life's passion.

[Twilight]

There is guidance in the scripture about this, about how to identify the voice of God.

But because of extremes of behaviour (both ways), we should not lose sight of the fact that God is indeed very present in our lives and seeking to guide us. :-)

[Ellen]

Just because a person believes he/she hears God's voice doesn't allow you to say they don't.

There is a lady in Windsor Ontario reported today that her statue of Mary weeps tears of oil!!! She also claimed that it smiled.

Of course we don't believe a word of it, but Many many people have gone to see the miraculous statue. So many people came that she asked people not to come to her place any more and it has been moved to a catholic church there.

[phkrause]

We've had the same thing here in Worcester, MA a number of years ago.

[Ellen]

The stories about angels and people are the ones where a physical entity does something heroic and then disappears and it is assumed it was an angel.

In the head stories I take with a grain of salt.