I wonder how long.....

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

....Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden before they were ejected because they ate of the Tree...

We don't know if it was a few weeks, a few months, or a few millenia.

I don't think the age of Adam when he died, as stated in the Bible, includes the amount of time in the Garden.

Can Satan "create"? (I'm thinking about the world outside of the Garden.)

...just pondering...

[phkrause]

I've never thought about that. I wonder if its important in the overall picture of life.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Probably not important...but then, a lot of what's posted on the forum isn't important in the overall picture of life. Take, for instance, sports.

I was just pondering. Maybe I shouldn't.

**shrugs**

[Tom Wetmore]

I too have wondered about those things.

In your wondering, do you have some thoughts about what you think might be the possible answers to your questions?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

hmm.. well, I do know that Satan has the ability to transform, i.e., when the magicians in Pharoah's court threw down their staffs which subsequently became snakes - in response to Aaron's rod being thrown down and God transforming *it* into a snake. So it would seem that Satan has the ability to "create" using molecular material at hand. But I'm not so sure he could create something out of nothing, as God can do.

The rivers that flowed out of Eden, flowed into the *outside* world - Satan's habitat. I'm wondering if he created the dinosaurs and other prehistoric critters whilst Adam and Eve were in the Garden. If they were in the Garden for, say, millenia, then the carbon dating on fossils and artifacts could very well be correct.

But then that also begs the question of whether Satan could create a "human" race outside the Garden, as well. Or could he create a species that evolved into human form?

[Tom Wetmore]

The opening description about the pre-creation earth in Genesis is typical translated as being formless and empty. However, as I understand as within the possible range of meaning of the original Hebrew, it could also describe a wild place, a wilderness, a place of disorder and chaos.

I have thought that this could open the door to the idea that Satan's habitat involved his efforts and tinkering, yes creative efforts, to be the master of his domain. (We also do not know how long he had been banished to this earth before God showed up with His creative juices in full bloom.) Whether or not Satan had the ability to create life, is unknown. But I wouldn't be too quick to rule that out.

That would lead to the idea that when God did set foot here with His creation toolkit, He could have restored order to the wild place by rearranging the existing landmasses burying a lot of Satan's handiwork, like say the dinosaurs. God created an oasis of refuge for His creation, a beachhead on Satan's turf.

[phkrause]

I thought I read somewhere that one reason that Lucifer got upset with God and his son was because they were leaving him out of the creation of this earth?

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes, I have heard that idea suggested. I am not sure, but I think that may have come from Milton's Paradise Lost.

However, I can see that as a possible point of vexation to Satan, especially if God enters his domain and starts creating and rearranging things with a word.

This does raise some interesting parallels with Job. Satan complained that God put a hedge of protection around Job, just as God put Adam and Eve inside the refuge of Eden. God said, OK you can come in, but not with unrestrained access to do anything you want. It also puts God's rebuke to Job in a different light when He asked him where he was when God did all that creating stuff. Was the Job story an ancient telling of the first temptation with a what if? twist asking what if Adam(Job) did not succumb and remained faithful without falling.

[phkrause]

Well it wasn't Paradise Lost,because I've never read it. It was either EGW or another book altogether. But I'll put my bets on EGW. I will check it out.

[nuff sed]

Early Writings p.145

Spiritual Gifts V.3 p.36

nuff sed

[phkrause]

Thanks, I will check it out, I believe I have Spiritual Gifts, not sure about EWs. But if you read the first chapter in PP, which I did last night to check where I had read this, its pretty much implied there.

ps: just read SG nuff sed and it says it even better than PP chapter 1, again thanks.

[Ellen]

Rudywoofs I have to dispute your assumption that outside the garden was satan's territory.

I understand the ONLY territory God allowed the devil was the tree of Knowledge and Evil.

Although we give him a LOT of credit, Satan is still ONLY an angel of some sort - maybe a very bright, handsome, coniving one, but he is a created being all the same and he absolutely cannot CREATE from nothing.

[Tom Wetmore]

The implication of the Genesis account is that being caste out of the garden put Adam and Eve in an unprotected territory. Within the garden they were safe and Satan was only allowed to be at that one tree. Even after they sinned, the garden remained, but they could not enter that safe zone. Being cast out put them on Satan's turf.

As for Satan's creative ability. While he may not have been able to create something from nothing, I think the question remains, could he create something from existing materials. Humans can create things from material they have. Satan being more intelligent could too, I would think.

[Planey]

Despite man's "creative"abilities, I do not believe they can create living things. While some people have great fun combining some achievements in cybernetics and robotics with the semantics of the word "living" I believe it is true to say that man has not been able to create a living thing.

Could Satan have the ability to create something living, even using existing non-living material?

I note that when God created Adam, He made something living out of existing materials (the "dust of the Earth").