The aftermath

[skyblue888]

The first part of the 2,300 day prophecy (one prophetic day equals one literal year) is the 70 week prophecy which had its starting point in 457 B.C

70 prophetic weeks equal 490 literal years which terminated in A.D.34 when Stephen was stoned to death. By this action the Jewish nation sealed their final rejection of God's mercy. The 70 week prophecy, the time allotted to the Jews, ended. In the middle of the last prophetic week Jesus was cut off, not for Himself, but for others. This took place in A.D.31. He was anointed in the Jordan river in A.D.27. A.D.31 was the middle of that last prophetic week. Everything happened as prophesied.

1810 years later, on October 22, 1844, Jesus went from the Holy to the Most Holy apartment to begin the investigative judgment as prophesied which was to end with the cleansing of the sanctuary, prior to the close of probation.

Autumn of 457 B.C + 2,300 literal years brings us to the autumn of 1844.

sky

[John317]

What 1250 days are these?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

I meant 1/2 of 2300 days, or 1150 days. 1250 days was my typo.

I thought maybe that was it, but since you said it all through your post and even did the math at the end using that number, I wasn't sure.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

The translation of 2300 evenings and mornings, in the place of 2300 days, is quite established in reliable translations of the Holy Scriptures.

I'm very familiar with the idea of cutting that number in half, but what you say about being "quite established in reliable translations" is not true. I have over 40 different translations of the Old Testament, and only two of them give 1150 days.

Besides, it is not what the original language says, and therefore it is the interpretation of the translator. As you know, the interpretation of the translator is neither authoritative nor inspired. The inspired Word of God says, "2300 evenings-mornings."

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

"evenings and mornings" is the translation of the NIV, which I am beginning to respect more and more.

You'll notice that the NIV also reads, "2300."

I use the NIV often also, but it has some serious problems. The major problem is that it is a dynamic translation and not a literal one. So it is necessary to always compare it with the original language or to more literal translations, such as the New American Standard or the King James Version. If you use all three of these, you will usually be able to tell what the original manuscripts say.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

There are translations that say 1150 days of evenings and mornings. You are almost certainly familiar with them. If not, do your homework and review translations of Daniel 8.

Speaking of which, what translations do you have that render it "1,150 days of evenings and mornings"?

Yes, I am indeed very familiar with them, and they are not among the most reliable translations. They are paraphrases. In fact, out of my 40+ translations, ALL of the best and most accurate and dependable render it exactly as the original has it, "2300 evenings and morning" or "2300 days."

I have only two in my library that read, "1150 days," and one of those (Today's English Version, or Good News For Modern Man) changed it to "2300" in the current editions. The original printing of it (1976) was later changed to "2300 evenings and mornings" in order to conform to the original language.

I also have the New Century Version (1987) which reads "1,150 days."

I would be very interested in knowing which other translations read "1, 150".

Cutting the 2300 days in half is pure conjecture, and done in order to try (unsuccessfuly) to make it fit the time period of Antiochus Ephiphanes IV. But it doesn't fit anyway, as I've shown, and as I'll show again in greater detail in my next posts.

[Gerr]

God investigate? Jesus investigate? An absurdity. God is transcendent. God knows anything, everything, and something. So what's to investigate? He already knows, has known from beginning of time, all about me. An investigative judgment would accomplish nothing for God.

G: If the IJ is done for God's benefit, then you are ABSOLUTELY correct! It would be absurd. In case you didn't see what I said in a previous post:

The IJ is not to inform God. He is omniscient. The IJ is for the benefit of His creatures. Should HMS Richards or Billy Graham be lost (heaven forbid) & Hitler & Stalin saved, there will/would be a LOT of people howling asking questions. The IJ would show why. It will show and vindicate God that He is righteous and a fair Judge after all.

Jawge, the concept of an Investigative Judgment is really very simple, if you're willing to listen. Just consider this fact/question: Are ALL professing Christians saved? What needs to be done to show all parties involved why some are saved and some are lost?

Once you become attuned to the Investigative Judgment, you will find it all over the Bible.

16 “If a malicious witness rises up against a man to accuse him of wrongdoing,

17 then both the men who have the dispute shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who will be in office in those days.

18 “The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness and he has accused his brother falsely,

19 then you shall do to him just as he had intended to do to his brother. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.

New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Dt 19:16–19). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

16 If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse a man of a crime, 17 the two men involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the LORD before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time. 18 The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against his brother

The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996 (electronic ed.) (Dt 19:16–18). Grand Rapids: Zondervan.

2 If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, 3 and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, 4 and this has been brought to your attention, then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. 6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death,

The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996 (electronic ed.) (Dt 17:2–6). Grand Rapids: Zondervan.

The gospel net brings in good & bad fish. They must be separated.

The wheat must be separated from the chaff. Ditto the sheep from the goats.

When Adam & Eve sinned, the Lord came down, and an investigation took place BEFORE a judgment was given. Look at the story in Gen 3 again. Look at the investigative question the Lord asked.

Look at the story of Sodom & Gomorrah again. Before the punishment was meted out, the Lord, in anthrophomorphic language said He was going to check it out to see if the reports of their wickedness was true or not.

2 Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

1 Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

[Gail]

Jawge, do you remember Job's story? When the heavenly conclave gathered and Satan dropped in (uninvited, I like to believe!)? He accused God of protecting Job, and told God that if he only had the chance to get at Job then Job would curse God.

God agreed... It was a test, a trial, for Job. God knew that Job was faithful but it was for those angels present at the meeting (and Satan the accuser and anyone else) to see for themselves that Satan was wrong. God was righteous in declaring Job a faithful follower.

Job showed his faith such (and remember, he never did discover that it was Satan behind all his trouble): he said, "Though he should slay me, yet I will trust in Him."

Also: "But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold." Job 23:10

Satan's accusation was shown openly for what it was.

A judgment is to show the facts for what they are. Jesus is our Advocate (1 John 2:1)

[John317]

Although you won't see the exact word "investigative" you will see the concept by looking up the word, "try" or "trial".

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

God investigate? Jesus investigate? An absurdity. God is transcendent. God knows anything, everything, and something. So what's to investigate? He already knows, has known from beginning of time, all about me. An investigative judgment would accomplish nothing for God.

But the investigation is not for God to learn anything. It is for the entire onlooking universe. Look at who all is involved in the judgment as seen in Daniel 7: 8-14. The Bible teaches that this earth is like a theater for other beings in the universe and that they are learning from observing what is happening here. They are watching to see how God deals with the problem of sin and with Satan's rebellion. There is much more involved than this tiny world and the people in it.

The word for "investigate" is found in Rev. 2: 23. It is the Greek word ereunao. See Strong's dictionary.

Rev. 2:23

and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches [Gk ereunao, "investigates"] mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.

This word, ereunao, is the same word used today in Greece when reference is made to the police investigating a crime.

Here are some verses that refer to God investigating, or testing, people's lives and hearts:

1 Thess. 2: 4

1 Cor. 4: 4,5

Jer. 17: 10

Ps. 11: 4,5

Ps. 7: 9

1 Chron. 29: 17

These and other Bible verses establish 3 important points:

1) Jesus, the Lord, looks upon the righteous saints and investigates.

2) He investigates hearts and minds.

3) He does this in His temple-- His heavenly sanctuary.

[John317]

John, I did the math. Did it on a figure that was itself in error. I've always been poor at cyphering. You are familiar with Robert Heinlein's works, I think. He said that one who can't do math is a somewhat less than civilized wretch. Sigh. : <

You have lots of company. I'm terrible at math, too. I didn't take anything in math beyond intro to college algebra. :-)

[John317]

....Daniel, the entire Chapter 8, relates the "2300 prophesy" to Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Read the whole chapter again, rapidly and prayerfully, then repeat the reading, starting with a prayer for understanding. Don't tell me "he couldn't possibly have been the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies" until after you read my next separate post, which will parse Daniel 8, showing that Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and only Antiochus IV, could fulfill the prophesy of Daniel.

OK. I'll look forward to studying it.

[Gerr]

Gerry, I am not saying anything. I am only quoting what Mrs. White said the Lord told her about Crozier's article.

You do not believe what the Lord told her?

Crozier did not say that no atonement took place before the cleansing of the sanctuary but that no atonement took place at the cross and he explains this by looking at the type and then the Lord said to Mrs. White that Crozier stated the truth. Read the six points he made again.

"But again, they say that the atonement was made and finished on Calvary, when the Lamb of God expired. So men have taught us, and so the churches and world believe; but it is none the more true or sacred on that account, if unsupported by Divine authority. Perhaps few or none who hold that opinion have ever tested the foundation on which it rests.

G: I don't have the whole article, but your quote IN NO WAY implies to me that NO ATONEMENT took place at the Cross. What he doesn't believe in is the "atonement was made and finished on Calvary", meaning there was nothing more to be done. If you look at the typical services, as I said before, it appears to me that atonement was done in stages. I believe the same is true in the antityical realities. In the typical, a sinner brings the lamb at the entrance. He confesses his sins, presents the animal as his substitute, slays it, and is atoned for and forgiven. In the antitypical, the sinner repents, confesses his sins, accepts Christ as his Savior and is justified. That's just the beginning of the journey in our walk with God. Each day in the sanctification process, the life of the sinner becomes more and more AT-ONE with the character of the divine.

S: 1. If the atonement was made on Calvary, by whom was it made? The making of the atonement is the work of a Priest, but who officiated on Calvary?--Roman soldiers and wicked Jews.

G: Who made atonement for Abel? Enoch? Noah? For all the saints BEFORE the Levitical system was instituted? How about Melchizedek officiating at Calvary?

Sky: 2. The slaying of the victim was not making the atonement; the sinner slew the victim, Leviticus 4:1-4,13-15, etc., after that the Priest took the blood and made the atonement. Leviticus 4:5-12, 16-21.

G: Atonement for the sin of Saul against the Gibeonites was made when 7 of his kin were hanged. (2 Sam 21). When Isaiah saw God's glory in vision He said, "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips..." An angel took coals from the altar and touched his lips and then said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”(Isa 6) " ‘Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it." Nu 35:33 NIV.

The slaying of a person or sacrificial animal is the same as shedding blood.

S: 3. Christ was appointed High Priest to make the atonement, and He certainly could not have acted in that capacity till after His resurrection, and we have no record of His doing any thing on earth after His resurrection, which could be called the atonement.

G: Are you saying that the pre-levitical saints did not receive atonement? Like Abel? Enoch? Noah? Remember that Enoch was translated before the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary. So did Elijah, and a host of resurrected saints when Jesus died and went up with Him after the resurrection.

S: 4. The atonement was made in the Sanctuary, but Calvary was not such a place.

G: No sanctuary for the saints I mentioned above either.

5. He could not according to Hebrews 8:4 make atonement while on earth. "If He were on earth, He should not be a Priest." The Levitical was the earthly priesthood; the Divine Priesthood, the heavenly.

G: See my comments about the pre-levitical saints above. Besides, there was also Melchizedek, whose priesthood was also "forever."

S: 6. Therefore, He did not begin the work of making atonement, whatever the nature of that work may be, till after His ascension, when by His own blood He entered the heavenly sanctuary for us." Crozier, Day-Star Extra for February 7, 1846, pages 40,41.

G: Are you saying there was no forgiveness between His death and ascension?

This, then is the "true light", which the Lord showed Sister White in vision, had His approval, and which she felt fully authorized to recommend to every saint. Only as we downgrade Sister White can we reject this testimony of hers.

In the light of the above, we have no choice but to aknowledge that what Crozier said is truth, light proceeding from the throne of God. sky

G: I believe that Crozier is correct in saying that atonement was not made and FINISHED at the Cross. That is far from saying that NO atonement took place at all. Our Lord is still making atonement in the heavenly sanctuary. And the END of the atonement process will NOT take place until the WHOLE universe is truly AT-ONE-MENT once again. This is very eloquently expressed in the last paragraph of the Great Controversy:

"The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more. The entire universe is clean. One pulse of harmony and gladness beats through the vast creation. From Him who created all, flow life and light and gladness, throughout the realms of illimitable space. From the minutest atom to the greatest world, all things, animate and inanimate, in their unshadowed beauty and perfect joy, declare that God is love." {GC88 678.3}

[JawgeFromJawja]

Daniel 8 from NIV

Daniel 8

Daniel’s Vision of a Ram and a Goat

1,2 In the third year of King Belshazzar’s reign, I, Daniel, had a vision --- I saw myself in the citadel of Susa in the province of Elam --- beside the Ulai Canal.

3,4 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal --- One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later. 4 I watched the ram as it charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against it, and none could rescue from its power. It did as it pleased and became great.

5,6,7 --- suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between its eyes came from the west --- toward the two-horned ram --- and charged at it in great rage --- striking the ram and shattering its two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against it --- and none could rescue the ram from its power.

8 The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

You seem to have a problem with the underscored phrase “ The goat became very great” insofar as the little horn is concerned. “Very great” does indicate that the kingdom represented by the goat exceeded in size or power the kingdom represented by the ram, that only became “great”. That makes sense, for the goat did beat the ram. Further, you state that the Daniel 8 prophecy could not possibly refer to Antiochus IV because size and power did not match that of the goat kingdom’s size and power.

I refer you to verse 10: “It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them”. That seems pretty large to me. The goat kingdom was not described as being nearly so big as to reach the heavens and throw down the starry hosts.

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them.

In context, the latter horn, “which started small”, came out of the original four horns. So far, this is very compatible with Antiochus I Epiphanes, who came out of one of the kings represented by the original four horns. And the little horn cannot represent Rome, which grew in power in every direction. The little horn’s power and strength were thrust to the south, (Egypt), the East (Parthia, which was a very ambitious), and The Beautiful Land, that being Israel.

You object to Antiochus IV filling the prophetic bill because he was stopped by the challenge of a lone Roman legate. True. But two years before that event, Antiochus waxed very ambitious, did invade Egypt, and conquered all of Egypt but Alexandria and another city. He set up a puppet government. Oh, yes, Antiochus IV Epimanes (his nickname, meaning “the Maniac”), was quite big enough to be the madman of interest as prophesied.

11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the LORD; it took away the daily sacrifice from the LORD, and his sanctuary was thrown down.

12 Because of rebellion, the LORD’s people[a] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

Come now, J, get real. This is none other than Antiochus IV. Rome and Judea had an uneasy truce in Jesus’ time, but at least the Temple and daily offices were spared until 70 AD, when everything was destroyed. It was, as firmly established in history, Antiochus who took away the daily sacrifice.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

The translation "2300 evenings and mornings" is well established. In the e-Sword program, I have downloaded 31 translations, including KJV. In addition, I have multiple printed copies of KJV, The New English Bible (Thanks for re-directing me to that translation earlier, John. It had gathered dust for years.)Martin Luther's translation in German, and The Clear Word. The Clear Word is so blatantly doctrinal that I read in only to review SDA theology. Of those 33 translations and one paraphrase, all but three state 2300 evenings and mornings, with no reference to days. The two translations stating days instead of evenings and mornings are KJV, and Noah Webster's translation on e-Sword. Then of course, The Clear Word translates days, and audaciously adds material on the Heavenly Sanctuary.

My written references to 1150 days are The Abingdon Bible Commentary edition of 1958. I was taking a course in religion at that time, and a more recent Abingdon Commentary limited to the Book of Daniel. I have loaned it to my brother in law. If you want the date, it is readily available by phone call. I had mistakenly recalled 1150 days as being in one of the above translations.

The outlawed daily sacrifice, the surrender of the sanctuary, and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people. This is Antiochus IV, none other. Antiochus changed times (the scheduled sacrificial offices and other ceremonial activities) and the Law (circumcision was outlawed, reading The Torah forbidden, and proscription of unclean foods was stopped.) Antiochus IV had delusions of grandeur: he believed himself to be a manifestation of Zeus (Epiphanes has many possible translations, one being “manifest”), he put statues of Zeus and other Hellenistic gods in the temple, had pork sacrificed to those gods, and turned the various compartments of the Temple to trysting spots for prostitutes. His intention was to destroy the Religion of the Jews, and if necessary, the Jews themselves. You object to Antiochus IV because the prophecy is stated to be at the time of the end, and you don’t feel he fits that time frame. Read Chapter 11 very carefully. It recapitulates the history of Antiochus, and clarifies “the time of the end”, which in Daniel 8 and 11 mean the end of the power of the Hellenistic empires. Such is made quite clear in Chapter 11.

[John317]

Daniel 8 from NIV

Daniel 8

Daniel's Vision of a Ram and a Goat

1,2 In the third year of King Belshazzar's reign, I, Daniel, had a vision --- I saw myself in the citadel of Susa in the province of Elam --- beside the Ulai Canal.

3,4 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns, standing beside the canal --- One of the horns was longer than the other but grew up later. 4 I watched the ram as it charged toward the west and the north and the south. No animal could stand against it, and none could rescue from its power. It did as it pleased and became great.

5,6,7 --- suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between its eyes came from the west --- toward the two-horned ram --- and charged at it in great rage --- striking the ram and shattering its two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against it --- and none could rescue the ram from its power.

8 The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

The ram with two horns is the second kingdom-- Media-Persia.Media rose up earlier than Persia but Persia was the stronger power of the two.

The goat was the power of Greece, and Alexander was the large horn that was broken off at the height of his power. History attests that in his place there rose up four promenant powers, just as the prophecy predicted. Among these was the Seleucid Empire, and one of its minor rulers was Antiochus IV.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

You seem to have a problem with the underscored phrase The goat became very great insofar as the little horn is concerned.

Why do you say I have a "problem" with it?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Very great does indicate that the kingdom represented by the goat exceeded in size or power the kingdom represented by the ram, that only became great. That makes sense, for the goat did beat the ram.

Yes, and the kingdom of Greece was a greater kingdom that of the Medes and Persians.

The ram , the Kingdom of the Medes and Persians, is called "great."

The goat, the kingdom of Greece, is called "very great."

Daniel 8: 9 says the "small horn" grows "exceedingly great." This indicates clearly that the small horn eventually becomes bigger or greater than either Media-Persia or Greece.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes never became greater than Media-Persia or the Greek Empire. Or do you contest this?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Further, you state that the Daniel 8 prophecy could not possibly refer to Antiochus IV because size and power did not match that of the goat kingdom's size and power.

That is correct. Or again, are you claiming that the Antiochus IV became greater than the two previous kingdoms, Media-Persia and Greece?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

I refer you to verse 10: It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them.

How do you understand this verse to have been fulfilled?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

That seems pretty large to me. The goat kingdom was not described as being nearly so big as to reach the heavens and throw down the starry hosts.

Yes, the little horn grows to be stronger and more powerful than the goat or the ram. That is precisely what I am saying. But Antiochus IV never did become more powerful than the goat or ram. It is proof that Antiochus IV is not the fulfillment of the prophecy.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land.

Both the NAS and the New King James reads the horn "grew exceedingly great." Rotherham's Emphasized Bible similarly reads, "became exceedingly great." The little horn, then, exceeded the power of the two previous kingdoms.

[Gerr]

J: I see it this way:

Everything that I need for salvation was accomplished at the cross. There is nothing for me to do but to repent and accept God's grace through the merits (yes, sky, I've always believed that ) of the life and death of Jesus.

G: As the long & short of salvation, that is true. But if there is/was nothing more for Christ to do after the Cross, there wouldn't be any need for you to repent & accept God's grace. What took place at the Cross provided the means (condition?) by which Christ can continue His intercessory & mediatorial work as our high priest - another stage in the work of atonement. We continue to sin whether intentionally or inadvertently and so continue to need His atoning and cleansing blood. Sinners continue to accept His grace for the first time, and need the same atoning & cleansing blood that was shed at Calvary.

[skyblue888]

Gerry, I am not saying anything. I am only quoting what Mrs. White said the Lord told her about Crozier's article.

You do not believe what the Lord told her?

Crozier did not say that no atonement took place before the cleansing of the sanctuary but that no atonement took place at the cross and he explains this by looking at the type and then the Lord said to Mrs. White that Crozier stated the truth. Read the six points he made again.

"But again, they say that the atonement was made and finished on Calvary, when the Lamb of God expired. So men have taught us, and so the churches and world believe; but it is none the more true or sacred on that account, if unsupported by Divine authority. Perhaps few or none who hold that opinion have ever tested the foundation on which it rests.

G: I don't have the whole article, but your quote IN NO WAY implies to me that NO ATONEMENT took place at the Cross. What he doesn't believe in is the "atonement was made and finished on Calvary", meaning there was nothing more to be done. If you look at the typical services, as I said before, it appears to me that atonement was done in stages. I believe the same is true in the antityical realities. In the typical, a sinner brings the lamb at the entrance. He confesses his sins, presents the animal as his substitute, slays it, and is atoned for and forgiven. In the antitypical, the sinner repents, confesses his sins, accepts Christ as his Savior and is justified. That's just the beginning of the journey in our walk with God. Each day in the sanctification process, the life of the sinner becomes more and more AT-ONE with the character of the divine.

S: 1. If the atonement was made on Calvary, by whom was it made? The making of the atonement is the work of a Priest, but who officiated on Calvary?--Roman soldiers and wicked Jews.

G: Who made atonement for Abel? Enoch? Noah? For all the saints BEFORE the Levitical system was instituted? How about Melchizedek officiating at Calvary?

Sky: 2. The slaying of the victim was not making the atonement; the sinner slew the victim, Leviticus 4:1-4,13-15, etc., after that the Priest took the blood and made the atonement. Leviticus 4:5-12, 16-21.

G: Atonement for the sin of Saul against the Gibeonites was made when 7 of his kin were hanged. (2 Sam 21). When Isaiah saw God's glory in vision He said, "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips..." An angel took coals from the altar and touched his lips and then said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”(Isa 6) " ‘Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it." Nu 35:33 NIV.

The slaying of a person or sacrificial animal is the same as shedding blood.

S: 3. Christ was appointed High Priest to make the atonement, and He certainly could not have acted in that capacity till after His resurrection, and we have no record of His doing any thing on earth after His resurrection, which could be called the atonement.

G: Are you saying that the pre-levitical saints did not receive atonement? Like Abel? Enoch? Noah? Remember that Enoch was translated before the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary. So did Elijah, and a host of resurrected saints when Jesus died and went up with Him after the resurrection.

S: 4. The atonement was made in the Sanctuary, but Calvary was not such a place.

G: No sanctuary for the saints I mentioned above either.

5. He could not according to Hebrews 8:4 make atonement while on earth. "If He were on earth, He should not be a Priest." The Levitical was the earthly priesthood; the Divine Priesthood, the heavenly.

G: See my comments about the pre-levitical saints above. Besides, there was also Melchizedek, whose priesthood was also "forever."

S: 6. Therefore, He did not begin the work of making atonement, whatever the nature of that work may be, till after His ascension, when by His own blood He entered the heavenly sanctuary for us." Crozier, Day-Star Extra for February 7, 1846, pages 40,41.

G: Are you saying there was no forgiveness between His death and ascension?

This, then is the "true light", which the Lord showed Sister White in vision, had His approval, and which she felt fully authorized to recommend to every saint. Only as we downgrade Sister White can we reject this testimony of hers.

In the light of the above, we have no choice but to aknowledge that what Crozier said is truth, light proceeding from the throne of God. sky [color:blue]

G: I believe that Crozier is correct in saying that atonement was not made and FINISHED at the Cross. That is far from saying that NO atonement took place at all. Our Lord is still making atonement in the heavenly sanctuary. And the END of the atonement process will NOT take place until the WHOLE universe is truly AT-ONE-MENT once again. This is very eloquently expressed in the last paragraph of the Great Controversy:

"The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more. The entire universe is clean. One pulse of harmony and gladness beats through the vast creation. From Him who created all, flow life and light and gladness, throughout the realms of illimitable space. From the minutest atom to the greatest world, all things, animate and inanimate, in their unshadowed beauty and perfect joy, declare that God is love." {GC88 678.3}

Gerry

________________________

Crozier stated that there was no atonement made at the cross. Period. He explained this in six points and Mrs. White said that the Lord showed her that it was the true light.

If you choose not to believe this, fine. It's up to you Gerry.

One more time:

1. If the atonement was made on Calvary, by whom was it made? The making of the atonement is the work of a Priest, but who officiated on Calvary?--Roman soldiers and wicked Jews.

2. The slaying of the victim was not making the atonement; the sinner slew the victim, Leviticus 4:1-4,13-15, etc., after that the Priest took the blood and made the atonement. Leviticus 4:5-12, 16-21.

3. Christ was appointed High Priest to make the atonement, and He certainly could not have acted in that capacity till after His resurrection, and we have no record of His doing any thing on earth after His resurrection, which could be called the atonement.

4. The atonement was made in the Sanctuary, but Calvary was not such a place.

5. He could not according to Hebrews 8:4 make atonement while on earth. "If He were on earth, He should not be a Priest." The Levitical was the earthly priesthood; the Divine Priesthood, the heavenly.

6. Therefore, He did not begin the work of making atonement, whatever the nature of that work may be, till after His ascension, when by His own blood He entered the heavenly sanctuary for us." Crozier, Day-Star Extra for February 7, 1846, pages 40,41.

[Gerr]

S: Crozier stated that there was no atonement made at the cross. Period. He explained this in six points and Mrs. White said that the Lord showed her that it was the true light.

If you choose not to believe this, fine. It's up to you Gerry.

One more time:

G: You keep repeating the same points without addressing my responses. Consider this statement also from her:

"To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ’s victory. {DA 758.2}

Tell me, how can the redemption be accomplishED (past tense) at the Cross without atonement?

[Gerr]

Here's another statement:

"The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel the sin; it would stand on record in the sanctuary until the final atonement; so in the type the blood of the sin offering removed the sin from the penitent, but it rested in the sanctuary until the day of atonement." {CCh 348.1}

If there is a FINAL ATONEMENT, there must also be an INITIAL ATONEMENT and others in between. In fact, the more I delve into this, the more I'm convinced that atonement is an ONGOING process of which the death of Christ is the focal point, and that atonement will not be completed until sin & sinners are no more and the whole universe is again AT-ONE with its Creator.

[Twilight]

Here's another statement:

In fact, the more I delve into this, the more I'm convinced that atonement is an ONGOING process of which the death of Christ is the focal point, and that atonement will not be completed until sin & sinners are no more and the whole universe is again AT-ONE with its Creator.

That would make sense.

But I would love to see that from the bible, share your texts when you have had time to take this to scripture Gerry. :-)

[skyblue888]

Gerry, I quoted from Crozier's article in regard to whether there was any atonement made at the cross or not. The article shows that there was none but you keep saying that there was atonement made at the cross.

The issue is not about whether there is an ongoing atonement in the sanctuary above and a final atonement. We agree on that.

You say that Christ made atonement on the cross. How could He? He was not that Priest on the cross but the slain victim. It was not until He ascended up on High that He began as our High Priest to make atonement for our transgression. Both Mrs. White and Crozier agree on this and the Lord told Mrs. White that this was the true light.

I am merely attempting to correct your position claiming that there was atonement made on the cross, that's all.

sky

[skyblue888]

S: Crozier stated that there was no atonement made at the cross. Period. He explained this in six points and Mrs. White said that the Lord showed her that it was the true light.

If you choose not to believe this, fine. It's up to you Gerry.

One more time:

G: You keep repeating the same points without addressing my responses. Consider this statement also from her:

"To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ’s victory. {DA 758.2}

Tell me, how can the redemption be accomplishED (past tense) at the Cross without atonement?

Gerry

___________________________

This statement is not saying that this was the atonement itself. Otherwise, it would mean that the atonement was finished and completed on the cross which is what the evangelicals believe and teach.

The great work of redemption includes His spotless life and then His death upon the cross. But this is the condition for the atonement not the atonement itself. Christ did not make atonement until He ascended up on High.

sky

[skyblue888]

[JawgeFromJawja]

John317

Quote:

1) Jesus, the Lord, looks upon the righteous saints and investigates.

2) He investigates hearts and minds.

3) He does this in His temple-- His heavenly sanctuary.

1) We are in partial agreement. He looks on everyone - saved ongoing sinners, and unsaved ongoing sinners, which are the only two categories of mankind. There are no other categories, just window dressing that God ignores while barely stifling His laughter

2)In these verses, you are typically rendering such words as "tries", "judges", and "tests" to investigates. You are using shadings of meanings of those words to insist that God actually investigates. God judges, tries, tests, but not in an investigative sense.

3) So far, you haven't quoted a single verse establishing an investigative judgment that began 1n 1844. The verses you referenced show what was always known, that God judges the heart, and tries us, and tests us. But he tries and tests us for our own edification and growth, not His. Daniel 8:14 certainly does not implicitly or explicitly refer to an investigative judgment starting in 1844. Reading the entire chapter through reveals the subject clearly to refer to the sanctuary in Jerusalem, desecrated and literally made filthy by our good ole established guy, Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

[Gerr]

S: We agree that Christ has been making atonement ever since He ascended up on High and that on Oct.22, 1844 He passed from the Holy to the Most Holy apartment to begin the final atonement for the dead first and for the living when the mission of the Gospel shall be completed.

His death upon the cross is the "focal point" but only in the sense that it was the "condition" for the atonement. How could He ascend up on High and make atonement unless His offering was first accepted of the Father?

Only after the Father accepted His sacrifice and declared that it was full and complete could Jesus begin to make atonement in the first apartment of the sanctuary above by pleading before the Father His divine merits in our behalf.

G: The Plan of Redemption was not an afterthought. It was conceived in eternity past. Did the Godhead forsee victory or not? If victory was forseen, then acceptance of that sacrifice is presumed, and acceptance at the ascension is only a formality. Had His sacrifice been a failure, would He have been called out of the grave by the Father?

[Gerr]

[John317]

... So far, you haven't quoted a single verse establishing an investigative judgment that began 1n 1844.

We've only just begun.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

The verses you referenced show what was always known, that God judges the heart, and tries us, and tests us.

If you know that God does this, why do you say that God won't try and test and investigate during the judgment that takes place just before the Second Coming?

Look at Matt. 22 and the parable of the Wedding Feast. There's definitely an investigation that goes on to see who is dressed for the wedding feast. Believers are on their way to a wedding feast. Before it takes place, there will be an investigation to see who is dressed and who is not dressed. God already knows, but there are beings in the universe who do not read hearts and minds. They need to see evidence. The "books" are the evidence. Jesus comes to give His rewards to everyone according to their works, and it only makes sense that there's an investigative judgment before He comes in order to decide who get the rewards. See Rev. 22: 12.

Who has been faithful? Who has overcome? Who is worthy to be given the gift of immortality? These are the kinds of questions that are decided in the Investigative Judgment, or the Pre-Advent Judgment.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

But he tries and tests us for our own edification and growth, not His.

Seventh-day Adventists have never taught that the investigation is in order for God to learn something. The Bible shows that there are others interested in these issues and questions besides God. The Investigative Judgment will answer many quesions about God's character and the nature of sin and of how God has dealt with it. Our God is not dealing with sin in a corner but is doing it out in the open with all the intelligent universe watching. With his power, God could just tell everyone to let him make all the decisions and to trust those decisions, but instead he invites the unfallen beings of the universe to watch and even take part in the decision-making. He even allows Satan-- the Accuser-- to act as a kind of prosecuting attorney against humanity.

God allows people to be "tested" just as He allowed Job to be tested. Did God learn anything from Job's experience? No. In fact, God correctly predicted what Job would do. But Job and his friends learned from the experience, and we can be sure that so did Satan and the rest of the angels.

[JawgeFromJawja]

"Only after the Father accepted His sacrifice and declared that it was full and complete could Jesus begin to make atonement in the first apartment of the sanctuary above by pleading before the Father His divine merits in our behalf.

sky"

God accepted Jesus' sacrifice eons and eons ago. God had already approved Jesus' sacrifice before this ole world was made.

That acceptance had had already occurred when Jesus walked the earth:

John 3: 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

That beloved verse was spoken by Jesus Himself.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, \"Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

John the Baptist could not have said that without the previous approval of Jesus sacrifice.

Revelation 1:5 ...and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the , and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood ---

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Those verses show approval of Jesus sacrifice

hundreds of years before his incarnation.

Please, meaning no disrespect, but I sense too much of making the simple process of personal salvation a complex, unwieldy,and burdensome chore.

Jesus told us, "take my burden --- for my burden is light."

JawgeFromJawja

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/In_What_Bible_verse_says_Jesus_sacrificing_for_your_sin#ixzz170NBzDU2

[JawgeFromJawja]

John317, lets stay with one of the key verses until one of us either gasps his last, screams "uncle", or says something unacceptable in polite society, whether it be Adventist, Baptist, or whatever.

This has been quite a workout for my e-Sword program, not to mention me. Ah ain't seen any this stuff since thuh early days o' muh first marriage, to some Adventist chick Ah foun' in Disgusta, Jawja. (Muh fuhst wife was quite supportive of me throughout medical school.)

Have you ever encountered or used e-Sword? It became indispensable for me in my Bible study years ago.

Let's look at 2 verses, Daniel 8 and 9, and see what we can agree on as far as meaning.

And be merciful to an ole coot.

Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

In accordance with the interpretation given later in Chapter 8, this symbolizes Alexander's empire. At the height of his power, he tried to drown out an infection by drinking from the Herculian Cup several times. Without such shenanigans, he might have survived. Oh, well. he was probably feeling no pain. Four notable ones horns came up in the place of that busted big horn.

Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

The subject of this verse is still the horns of the Macedonian Empire. A little horn came forth from one of the horns. That little horn waxed exceeding great toward the south, east, and the Pleasant Land, code for Judea, Israel, or "Palestine".

Let's compare a few other translations of verses 8 and 9:

NIV:

8 The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land.

The New English Bible:

8, 9 Then the he goat made a very great display of its strength. Powerful as it was, its great horn snapped and in its place there sprang out towards the four quarters of heaven four prominent horns. Out of one of them there issued one small horn, which made a prodigious show of strength south and east and towards the fairest of all lands.

ASV:

Dan 8:8 And the he-goat magnified himself exceedingly: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and instead of it there came up four notable horns toward the four winds of heaven.

Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the glorious land.

I can get no other reasonable sense from each and all of these translations but that the little horn arose from the thugs vying for Alexander's position, or at least for a piece of Alexander's conquests.

[skyblue888]

From the last chapter of The Desire of Ages, pp.833-835:

"All heaven was waiting to welcome the Saviour to the celestial courts. As He ascended, He led the way, and the multitude of captives set free at His resurrection followed. The heavenly host, with shouts and acclamations of praise and celestial song, attended the joyous train.

As they drew near to the city of God, the challenge is given by the escorting angels,--

"Lift up your heads, O ye gates;

And be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors;

And the King of glory shall come in."

Joyfully the waiting sentinels respond,--

"Who is this King of glory?"

This they say, not because they know not who He is, but because they would hear the answer of exalted praise,--

"The Lord strong and mighty,

The Lord mighty in battle!

Lift up your heads, O ye gates;

Even lift them up, ye everlasting doors;

And the King of glory shall come in."

Again is heard the challenge, "Who is this King of glory?" for the angels never weary of hearing His name exalted. The escorting angels make reply,--

"The Lord of hosts;

He is the King of glory." Ps. 24:7-10.

Then the portals of the city of God are opened wide, and the angelic throng sweep through the gates amid a burst of rapturous music.

There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King.

But He waves them back. Not yet; He cannot now receive the coronet of glory and the royal robe. He enters into the presence of His Father. He points to His wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet; He lifts His hands, bearing the print of nails. He points to the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf, those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming. He approaches the Father, with whom there is joy over one sinner that repents; who rejoices over one with singing. Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the Father and the Son had united in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan. They had clasped Their hands in a solemn pledge that Christ should become the surety for the human race. This pledge Christ has fulfilled. When upon the cross He cried out, 'It is finished,' He addressed the Father. The compact had been fully carried out. Now He declares: Father, it is finished. I have done Thy will, O My God. I have completed the work of redemption. If Thy justice is satisfied, 'I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am.' John 19:30; 17:24.

The voice of God is heard proclaiming that justice is satisfied. Satan is vanquished. Christ's toiling, struggling ones on earth are 'accepted in the Beloved.' Eph. 1:6. Before the heavenly angels and the representatives of unfallen worlds, they are declared justified. Where He is, there His church shall be. 'Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.' Ps. 85:10. The Father's arms encircle His Son, and the word is given, 'Let all the angels of God worship Him.' Heb. 1:6.

With joy unutterable, rulers and principalities and powers acknowledge the supremacy of the Prince of life. The angel host prostrate themselves before Him, while the glad shout fills all the courts of heaven, 'Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.' Rev. 5:12.

Songs of triumph mingle with the music from angel harps, till heaven seems to overflow with joy and praise. Love has conquered. The lost is found. Heaven rings with voices in lofty strains proclaiming, 'Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever.' Rev. 5:13.

From that scene of heavenly joy, there comes back to us on earth the echo of Christ's own wonderful words, 'I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God.' John 20:17. The family of heaven and the family of earth are one. For us our Lord ascended, and for us He lives. 'Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.'" Heb. 7:25.

________________

The highlighted sentences prove beyond any shadow of doubt (indisputable evidence) that Christ could not begin the atonement until after His ascension when He received the Father's approval.

sky