Again and again history of Christ's withdrawal from "Judea" repeated!

[skyblue888]

"As the light and life of men was rejected by the ecclesiastical authorities in the days of Christ, so it has been rejected in every succeeding generation. Again and again the history of Christ's withdrawal from Judea has been repeated. When the Reformers preached the word of God, they had no thought of separating themselves from the established church; but the religious leaders would not tolerate the light, and those that bore it were forced to seek another class, who were longing for the truth. In our day few of the professed followers of the Reformers are actuated by their spirit. Few are listening for the Voice of God, and ready to accept truth in whatever guise it may be presented. Often those who follow in the steps of the Reformers are forced to turn away from the churches they love, in order to declare the plain teaching of the word of God. And many times those who are seeking for light are by the same teaching obliged to leave the church of their fathers, that they may render obedience." Desire of Ages, p.232.

In the above quotation is set forth a very clear and definite principle which is as true in any age as in any other, and as true of any one people as of any other. No age and no people are exempt from this principle by special right or special call.

Yet the curious fact is that any people in any age are quick to recognize, to accept and to apply the above principle when it is to their advantage and to their favour but to utterly deny, reject and to war against it if it is not to their favour.

Thus the Jews in the days of Christ viewed with joy and pride any acquisition which came to them from the heathen nations around about. They were indeed zealous missionaries and were forever seeking to draw other peoples into the family of Israel. This is very evident from the words of Christ when He said:

"Ye compass sea and land to make a proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." Matthew 23:15.

They would cheerfully accept the above statement when it told the story of the heathen being forced to turn away from their own teachers to come to the Jews to learn of them but when He came, who was the Truth then, they fought with all the power and strength they had to prevent people leaving the hollow sham which was their message, to go to that which was the real and living way!

"The Jewish people cherished the idea that they were the favorites of Heaven, and that they were always to be exalted as the church of God. They were the children of Abraham, they declared, and so firm did the foundation of their prosperity seem to them that they defied earth and Heaven to dispossess them of their rights. But by lives of unfaithfulness they were preparing for the condemnation of Heaven and for separation from God." C.O.L.294.

The question is, Is there something we can learn from them? Is it possible that we, as a church, could be repeating their history?

sky

[skyblue888]

Apparently not!

Anyway, Did not the prophets Jeremiah and Isaiah both stated that God would never forsake Israel? See Jeremiah 31:35-37; 33:23-26 and Isaiah 2:1-3. These were powerful passages of scrïpture used by the religious leaders in the days of the apostle Paul to prove the perpetuity of the Jewish church. And yet in A.D.34, when they stoned Stephen, they sealed their rejection of God's mercy and they were set aside as a people!

Without question, the situation which existed in the days of Christ and in the days of The Reformation, imposed a very severe test upon the individuals who lived in those times.

They had to make their choice between the established organization, which in its hoary aging, had lost sight and grasp of the truth itself in the mazes of human speculative theories.

Today, as we look back into those times, we not only marvel as to how men could, as the majority did, make the choice for the orthodox organization, and against the truth, but we confidently feel that had we lived back in those days, without hesitation we would have stood with Christ and the truth.

It is all too easy to do this so far as the past is concerned, because, not only are we not a part of the organization involved, but we see also the outworking of the choice made by those men and women back there.

Furthermore, our minds have tended to be imprisoned in an identically unconditional loyalty to another organization which was called to be the pillar and ground of the truth.

This very attitude, then and now, causes the closing of the mind against any consideration that we might be repeating the history of the past.

But the tests imposed upon the one generation are not confined to that generation, but are common to every generation of men. Always, the call is to choose between organized religion and the truth of God!

Right?

sky

[skyblue888]

So far, 47 viewers but not one comment. Is this topic somewhat "taboo" here?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Okay, I'll respond. It sounds to me like you're trumpeting the honk of "who can get out of the Adventist Church the fastest?"

[skyblue888]

Okay, I'll respond. It sounds to me like you're trumpeting the honk of "who can get out of the Adventist Church the fastest?"

Not exactly Rudy. More like, Who believes that we might be repeating the history of ancient Israel? that we too might have to choose between the "organized work" and the truth for this time.

sky

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Sounds like what I just wrote. Doesn't matter though. I shouldn't have written anything.

[skyblue888]

What I am saying is that we need to consider the possibility that in order to be faithful to God in these last days we might have to choose between "orthodoxy" or "the organized work" and the truths for this time. This is not a call to separate from the church yet if that is what you are asking.

I made myself clear on that many times on this forum. You should know that. And there is nothing wrong with you expressing your concern. I appreciate it. Thanks.

sky

[Johnnboy]

Everyone needs to consider very, very seriously what you have presented in this thread.

We give mouth service to the truth that the history of ancient times will be repeated in our experience, but how many of us really believe that we will be faced with the same decisions?

[skyblue888]

Everyone needs to consider very, very seriously what you have presented in this thread.

We give mouth service to the truth that the history of ancient times will be repeated in our experience, but how many of us really believe that we will be faced with the same decisions?

JOHNNBOY

____________________________

So true.

Today this test may come nearer home than we could ever have anticipated. Once again, the church raised up, even as the Jews were, to proclaim the very message of God, has come down to the fifth or sixth generation. Evidence upon evidence shows that there has been the development of a complex organizational structure wherein the authority of the church and its material prosperity seems to be more important than the proclamation of the truth. Right or wrong?

Exactly as in the days of Christ and of the Reformers, the Lord will again cause the light of truth to shine upon His people in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit. That which was first given between 1888 and 1903 and which, after its unfortunate general rejection then, will be brought again to the church of today.

Will the very emphasis on the supreme authority of the church which was the major defense of the religionists in the days of Christ and of the Reformation, likewise become the emphasis and defense of the church today?

Is not the same danger before us? As the multitudes blindly followed their then leaders, will not many today blindly follow while but few will be able to see the real issues in the matter to make a correct choice between denominationalism on the one hand, and the living truth upon the other?

sky

[skyblue888]

"The work of God in the earth presents, from age to age, a striking similarity in every great reformation or religious movement. The principles of God's dealing with men are ever the same. The important movements of the present have their parallel in those of the past, and the experience of the church in former ages has lessons of great value for our own time." The Great Controversy, p.343.

There are many points in history to which we might turn, but let us take what must be one of the very best and safest examples,--that of the experience of the Apostle Paul.

Paul, we find, was in exactly the same position the Reformers of the Sixteenth century had to face, and what some of us may soon have to face. He was forced to leave the Church, the established church of his day, and he had to do it in the face of powerful statements from the Old Testament. Yet he did it, and we know that he did the right thing indeed and we feel that if we had lived then we most certainly would also have shared his fate.

Paul's whole statement in regard to this is found in the ninth chapter of Romans, the first verses of which chapter record his testimony of love for the people of the Jewish Church. This is as strong a statement as it is possible to give in expression of love for a people.

Note his words carefully:

"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost. That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning to the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen."

But note very carefully that the very same Paul who was saying this, who was giving this strong protest of love even to the point where he was prepared to lose his eternal life that they might be saved, was forced to separate from that very organization and communion.

Paul really did love the Jewish people and longed more than anything else to see them saved in the kingdom but his enemies charged him with being one who did hate Israel and, what was worse, one that made the prophecies of none effect.

But Paul's answer was: "But it is not that the Word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham." Rom.9:6.

Any more comment? anyone.

sky

[Johnnboy]

The Messiah gave signs of His coming. With the signs He gave the prediction of having one's name cast out as evil. Have we seriously thought just what this might look like?

In the days of Christ it looked like this:

John 9:19 "And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see?

9:20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:

9:21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.

9:22 These [words] spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

9:23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him."

If our experience is similar to this, our path might be chosen for us, because of our decision to follow truth.

[skyblue888]

And these things happened to them as examples and they were recorded for our admonition upon whom the ends of the age have come!

sky :)

[skyblue888]

Now here, everyone of you who prizes eternal life above all else, is something to really do some thinking about. Here in the world was the Living Christ with the Living Message of Living Righteousness, and the people were of a mind to receive that message. If they had then, there would have been the greatest revival the world has ever witnessed. Looking back in history we can see that, and we believe that, if we had lived then, we most certainly would have been a part of the movement Christ was leading.

Wonderful indeed should have been the results. But that mighty revival never came as it should have come. Only very, very few took their stand for it. And who prevented it? The religious leaders.

"A nation's sin and a nation's ruin were due to the religious leaders." Desire of Ages, p.738.

And with what weapons did they defeat it? They defeated it with the arguments that, irrespective of how far the church may have wandered from the way of truth and righteousness, she was still and ever would be the church of God, and that in the end the Lord would purify it and make it white and it, the church as they knew it and defined it, would go through to the Kingdom.

This proved to be an entirely erroneous position to take and it cost them, and every one of those who followed and believed the ministry in these conclusions, their eternal life. It was a very serious blunder to make. We have the evidence and the witness of history to prove that. That very church as they knew it and defined it, did not go through to the end as they were so certain that it would, but became utterly and totally rejected and cut off, and those that stayed with it, were in like manner rejected and forever cut off.

This is not to say that the Church of God is not going through to the end. The Church of God as God knows it and defines it, is going through to the end, and all those who stay with that church, and are faithful to it, will triumph with it. The whole failure and fault with the Jewish religious leaders and the people they led, was that they could not see and know that church. They knew and saw a certain church organization, and they defined that to be the church of God, and then they applied the statements in the Old Testament prophecies which was intended by the Lord to speak only of the true Church of God, to that which they mistakenly thought to be the Church of God!

sky

[skyblue888]

Let us read Jeremiah 31:35-37 and ask ourselves as to whether stronger and more definite language could be used:

"Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; the Lord of hosts is His name: If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall depart from being a nation before Me for ever. Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord."

The modern reader of the Spirit of Prophecy who seeks to prove the perpetuity of the church, could hardly have found a stronger statement than that! Imagine the line of reasoning the religious leaders would have used in their day. They would ask the question:

"Does the sun still shine by day?"

"Yes," the answer had to be.

"Does the moon shine by night at this present time?"

"Yes, it does."

"Then is it possible for God to have cast off Israel for what they have done?"

Imagine how convincing this was to those people back then!

Now this tactic on the part of the devil to thwart the truth is so old and so often used that one would think that it would be no longer of any value, but in every generation when the Lord brings forth the truth, the devil brings out this weapon and uses it just as effectively as before. It was the great weapon that helped to frustrate the marvelous revival which might have been in the days of Christ. It was the great weapon used to thwart the work of the Gospel in the days of The Reformation.

sky

[skyblue888]

Where did these 5 stars came from and what do they mean?

sky

[skyblue888]

I am sure they don't mean that this is a hot topic! hehehe

The inference so strongly pressed upon the people therefore, was that to separate from the Jewish established church was to separate from the ship which was going through and therefore to fail to go through oneself.

Now, can't we hear the Jewish leaders arguing as they most certainly must have done in the days of Christ and of Paul:

"Why, do not be disturbed about this Man from Galilee, or this preacher, Saul of Tarsus. There is nothing new about this. We have been through these problems again and again. Remember how in the past there have been various offshoots which have arisen and proclaimed the apostasy of Israel, claimed that they had the real truth. But what has become of every one of these movements and the men who led them? Look and see!

"That man Theudas arose followed by Judas (See Acts 5:36,37) and then there was Barabbas. (See D.A.733.) But where are they now? Why, in some cases the leaders were killed by the authorities and the movements are scattered and come to naught. Look at the sadness, the disappointment and the disillusionment of the unfortunate people who were deceived by these false teachers every one of whom declared the end of the church, but who speedily came to their end instead.

"And where is the church in and through all this? Why it is still there. And we do not doubt that others will arise as this Paul, but they too will pass away and the church will be there to the very end. So save yourself the disappointment and the sorrow; learn the lesson of the past and stay with the ship and go through with it to the very end of time."

How utterly and fatally wrong time has proved them to be. They were utterly wrong in their argument that the men who had arisen had failed because they had charged the church with apostasy. This was not the reason why they had failed at all. They had failed, not because they had quite correctly charged the church with apostasy, but because they did not have the life and the message to correct the apostasy. And being wrong in their basic argument the Jewish leaders could not help being wrong in the conclusions drawn from that argument.

The argument which they propounded was that the Jewish organization was going right through to the end as the Church of God and the channel of His blessing to the world. To certify what they supposed to be the truth of this argument, they were able to quote many, many powerful Old Testament promises as shown in post # 14901.

Any comment?

sky

[skyblue888]

Let us look at another one of these prophecies and see how the Jewish leaders in the days of Christ would use it then.

"The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and the nations shall flow into it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob: and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.'" Isaiah 2:1-3.

Now here is a prophecy which distinctly says that right down in the last days Jerusalem would still be the great center from which the truth of God would go forth to the whole world. There might be some dark patches in between just as there had been in the past, but the Lord would always hold that city for Himself.

Now the last days are the very end, so therefore, here was a clear cut prophecy which stated that right through to the very end the Jewish Church and organization would stand as the channel of communication to the world. There it was clearly and convincingly written!

sky

[skyblue888]

The fact that the church was going through to the end, they argued, made it a foregone certainty that anyone who arose calling people out of the Jewish organization into another movement, would come to nothing, while the Church sailed majestically and powerfully on. Not only did they argue the certainty of this so far as any future movement was concerned, but the proof of it lay in the history of all those who had arisen in the past.

Consider that there can be no denying that the Old Testament scriptures, as they understood them, did state that the church was going through to the end and would thus forever be the church of God. Consider too that, without exception up till the appearance of the new movement under the leadership of Christ, and then of Christ through the apostles, every off-shoot without exception had come to nothing. Therefore it must be recognized that they had what appeared to be a most convincing argument!

And how convincing their argument sounded in the ears of the men and women of that time! How many indeed were won by those arguments and followed that line of reasoning. It took all the worry and the burden from their minds. It eased the troubled convictions stirred by the mighty messages of Paul and the other apostles. It led them to relax now and commit the keeping of their souls to the church. After all, she was going through, and what did they need now to worry about, but to be in her fold and under her care.

But what happened to those who propounded those arguments, and what happened to those who believed those arguments? That is quite a question, is it not! It should teach us that there is something a little deeper in these statements than appears to the surface reader.

Now all this is brought to our attention so that we may be aware knowing that history tends to repeat itself, that we may have to face this situation again for "The Lord has declared that the history of the past shall be rehearsed as we enter upon the closing work." 2 S.M.390.

sky

[skyblue888]

In the days of Christ, the Jewish church received two calls (two gospel invitations) before the message was sent to the Gentiles. The first call was given by the 12 and the 70 before the crucifixion and it was rejected, as the parable/prophecy of Matt.22 predicted. This call was followed by the crucifixion of Christ. This crucifixion (omega of apostasy) was followed by a second call. It began at Pentecost and ended with the stoning of Stephen in A.D.34. Thus probation closed for the Jewish church, having sealed her rejection of God's mercy and the "little church," composed of the disciples of Christ and their converts, were forced to turn to the Gentiles. This was the third call of the parable. See C.O.L.308,309.

When Jesus entered the Most Holy Place on the 22nd of October, 1844, the parable of Matt.22, the parable of the wedding garment, began to be enacted again, for the last time.

The first call took place between 1888 and 1903. As the parable had predicted, the light which was to lighten the whole earth with its glory was, by the action of our own brethren, resisted. Since then it has been, to a large degree, kept away from the world. See 1 S.M.235.

According to the parable, the rejection of this first call was to be followed by a crucifixion. Christ was "crucified" when, between 1955 and 1957, our religious leaders held 18 secret conferences with representatives of the other churches, making concessions to them. The pillars of our faith were thus compromised and even repudiated in order to gain the friendship of the popular churches. (Omega of apostasy) See 1 S.M.204,205,197, and 222, bottom of page.

According to the parable, this crucifixion is to be followed by a second call to the Advent people. This call will be given in demonstration of the Holy Spirit in "latter rain" power. If this call is rejected and the bearers of the message persecuted, they too, like the disciples of old in A.D.34, will be forced to turn to the "Gentiles" and the message will swell into a loud cry to the world. This is represented by the third call of the parable and this event will coincide with the National Sunday Law. And notice that at the end of this call which is the third call of the parable, the loud cry, the King comes into the room to examine the guests. This is the timing for the investigative judgment of the living prior to the general close of probation.

This is how I understand the order of last day events according to the parable/prophecy of Matt.22.

Any comment?

sky

[skyblue888]

The fact that the church was going through to the end, they argued, made it a foregone certainty that anyone who arose calling people out of the Jewish organization into another movement, would come to nothing, while the Church sailed majestically and powerfully on. Not only did they argue the certainty of this so far as any future movement was concerned, but the proof of it lay in the history of all those who had arisen in the past.

Consider that there can be no denying that the Old Testament scriptures, as they understood them, did state that the church was going through to the end and would thus forever be the church of God. Consider too that, without exception up till the appearance of the new movement under the leadership of Christ, and then of Christ through the apostles, every off-shoot without exception had come to nothing. Therefore it must be recognized that they had what appeared to be a most convincing argument!

And how convincing their argument sounded in the ears of the men and women of that time! How many indeed were won by those arguments and followed that line of reasoning. It took all the worry and the burden from their minds. It eased the troubled convictions stirred by the mighty messages of Paul and the other apostles. It led them to relax now and commit the keeping of their souls to the church. After all, she was going through, and what did they need now to worry about, but to be in her fold and under her care.

But what happened to those who propounded those arguments, and what happened to those who believed those arguments? That is quite a question, is it not! It should teach us that there is something a little deeper in these statements than appears to the surface reader.

Now all this is brought to our attention so that we may be aware knowing that history tends to repeat itself, that we may have to face this situation again for "The Lord has declared that the history of the past shall be rehearsed as we enter upon the closing work." 2 S.M.390.

sky

But there was a class of people who were not so readily convinced of the arguments put forth by the Jewish leaders. There seemed to be something not quite right there. So some of the people standing by, listening to them quoting Isaiah 2:1-3 would look puzzled and say,

"Yes, but look at the condition of Israel. Look at her apostasy, the corruption, and the departures from the truth that mark her ways at the present time. See the way she persecutes those that are seeking to do the right thing and have the courage to point out some of the wrongs in the church. How can she be thus, and do such things, and yet still claim to be the peculiar people of God? Are not these promises in regard to the perpetuity of the church conditional on her faithfulness?"

But for this the Jewish leaders were not lacking in an answer. With a solemn but confident expression on their faces they would say,

"Yes, we know that the situation in the church is far from good. There are many, many things that we cannot endorse and go along with, and there is nothing in the world that is needed more than a revival in the church at this very time. But the Lord knows all about it, and He will take care of it in His own good time and in His own good way. The whole difficulty with these reformers is that they will run ahead of the Lord. They are not prepared to wait for the Lord to work it all out in His own good time and way.

It's all written in the word of prophecy. Read it here with me in Isaiah 1:21-23. "How has the faithful city become an harlot! It was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water: thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them."

"Now," continue the Jewish leaders, "you can see that the Lord knows all bout the situation. It has not caught Him by surprise and He is working to correct it. Read with me now the words of verses 25-27. "And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross and take away all thy tin: And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counselers as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city, Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness."

And then they would say, "Now tell me, what could be plainer than that there is to be a great shaking in Israel. God will bring it about and then all the elements in the church which are out of tune with Him and His truth, will be shaken out and the true people of God will remain to go on to victory. And when that shaking is over, then the church will be the mighty power for good the Lord wants it to be. At that time, the time of the grand victory of the church, you are going to be either in or out of that church. If you are in and you are faithful, then you will share in the triumph of that church, but, if you are outside, then you will certainly fail to share in that triumph no matter how sincere you may be. So, don't you think that you had better take the safe path and stick with the church? It is going through to the end, you know."

Such were the arguments that the Jewish religious leaders in the days of Paul could, and without a doubt did use in seeking to turn the people from the message. Equally without doubt, they were thus successful in turning away many, many people who would otherwise have been believers in the Saviour and His message. That this is true is evident from the statement in Desire of Ages 205 which reads:

"If the priests and rabbis had not interposed, His teaching would have wrought such a reformation as this world has never witnessed."

sky

[skyblue888]

Some of us have read a great deal of Church history. We read of the tactics of the Roman Catholic priests and prelates to keep the people in the Papal Churches. As we read these things, we marveled at how the people of those times could be so ignorant and enslaved as to allow themselves to be deceived by such arguments. But then, it was an age of serious illiteracy, of consequent ignorance and therefore of fear, and in the light of that it was somewhat understandable. Those were the "Dark Ages."

As we read of those times and of those things, we feel a warm glow of thankfulness that those days are passed and that we live in an enlightened age when such arguments would never bear weight anymore. We believe that men have been emancipated from such things, and that today it is vastly different from what it has been. But to our amazement, we find that the very same arguments as were used back in the days of Paul, and in the days of the Reformers with so much success, may be used with equal success today.

As mentioned already on this thread, this tactic on the part of the devil to thwart the introduction of the message of life and light for the time is so old and oft used that one would think that it could not again be used with any effectiveness. In a regular battle, if the enemy is known to be one who uses the same tactics every time, then their opponents are well able to meet and defeat him. But not so in this case. The devil simply uses the same arguments and devices over and over again with equal, if not better, success every time. It is evident that there are but few who ever learn the lessons that the past is designed to teach us. But learn them we must. To fail to do so is to suffer the same consequences those in the past suffered,--eternal destruction.

The Jewish and the Catholic religious leaders were masters at quoting the scriptures. They could pile argument on argument to prove their point and were largely successful with the majority. But none of this saved them.

sky

[Johnnboy]

Skyblue888,

There's been no comment, as we're just reading your good study.

[skyblue888]

Thanks Johnn.

Appreciated.

[skyblue888]

But it is not enough for us to merely say that the arguments of the Jewish religious leaders were obviously erroneous. That they were, is fully proved by the end to which those arguments brought them. That end was eternal severance from the truth of God, and the life of God, and therefore from life itself.

It must be truly and plainly evident that if those arguments then led to that result, then the self-same arguments to-day will lead to the same result. Those experiences are the plainest possible warnings to us. After all, the very purpose of the recording of these things in the Word of God is for our example upon whom the ends of the world are come. Only those who learn not to repeat the mistakes of the past, will avoid the disasters and losses of the present.

But, as said above, it is not enough merely to demonstrate that the argument of the Jewish leaders and of the Catholic leaders is erroneous and fatal in its consequences. We must give the answer to these arguments and show where and how they are false arguments.

Because the arguments used by them confirmed them and the people who believed them in direct opposition to the Son of God and His faithful followers, then we can know with certainty, their arguments were arguments of human devising.

Therefore, in the showing as to how and why they were such, no argument of human devising is to be used but only the arguments of the Word of God. To that Word the seeker must go to find how it declares that the arguments used were false and misleading.

As said before, we are in the fortunate position where the history of the past provides us with a situation identical with our own. No better example can be found than the position of Paul, the Apostle and prophet of God, who found that he had to choose between following the truth of God and following on with the established church of the day. When he did follow the truth he found that he had to meet the many arguments propounded by the Jewish leaders with the supposed support of the Old Testament scriptures in regard to the guaranteed perpetuity of the Jewish organization.

Therefore if we are to understand the true and scriptural answer to these arguments, and come to the place where we understand what the Lord is saying, when He says that the church will go right through to the end, let us turn to Romans 9 to see what Paul's answer was. Let his answer be our answer. Let his position and belief be our position and belief. In doing this we shall be on very safe ground indeed. In fact, we shall be on the only safe ground there is, in respect to this matter.

sky

[skyblue888]

ooops, this thread lost two stars! I wish someone would explain how this star thing works.