Total Depravity of Man

[Dr. Shane]

What, generally, is the position of Adventists on the total depravity of man? That would mean that without God, man is completely evil and has no good in him.

[Gerr]

Here is what "The Reformation Study Bible" says about how the Reformers understood it:

Quote:

The phrase "total depravity" is commonly used to make explicit the implications of original sin. It signifies a corruption of our moral and spiriual nature that is total in principle, although not in degree (for no one is as bad as he or she might be). No part of us is untouched by sin, and no action of ours is as good as it should be. Consequently, nothing we do is ever meritorious in God's eyes. We cannot earn God's favor, no matter what we do; unless grace saves us, we are lost.

Total depravity includes total inability, that is, being wihout power to be lieve in God or His word (Jn 6:44; Rom 8:7,8). Paul calls this universal unresponsiveness a form of death; the fallen heart is "dead" (Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13). As the Westminster Confession(IX.3) explains, "Man be his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a ntural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto." To this darkness the word of God alone brings light (Lk 18:27; 2 Cor 4:6)

What do you think?

[skyblue888]

What, generally, is the position of Adventists on the total depravity of man? That would mean that without God, man is completely evil and has no good in him.

Shane, I say that what you have just stated is in perfect harmony with Scritpure. And that is why in the Testimonies we are told that if there is anything good or noble or lovely or holy in man, it is wholly attributable to the mercy of a compassionate Saviour.

sky

[Musicman1228]

Shane,

IF what you say is true (and I believe it is) and the nature of Jesus Christ as a human being is the same nature as ours then Jesus had a depraved nature and could not have acted in the capacity of Passover Lamb, because the Passover Lamb could contain no 'spot or blemish' and still accomplish it's God designed purpose of purchasing a Kingdom for God (Rev.5:9-10).

What say you? (You can either answer here or on the thread specifically about the human nature of Jesus Christ.)

[skyblue888]

Are you suggesting that the Scriptures teach that Jesus'human nature was exempt? that Jesus did not partake of the great law of heredity?

sky

[Dr. Shane]

Shane,

IF what you say is true (and I believe it is) and the nature of Jesus Christ as a human being is the same nature as ours then Jesus had a depraved nature and could not have acted in the capacity of Passover Lamb...

I think this is a bit of upside down logic. The idea is that "apart from God" there is nothing good in man. Since Jesus was fully God and fully man, He was never "apart from God."

I think of it like a car made without any fuel in it. The car can do nothing but sit and rust until someone puts fuel in it. God is the fuel that allows us to do good works. Jesus was born with a full tank. The rest of us are born with empty tanks.

[Dr. Shane]

Are you suggesting that the Scriptures teach that Jesus' human nature was exempt? that Jesus did not partake of the great law of heredity?

Not at all. I would suggest that sinless Adam was not able to do any good except for God. Man must have a relationship with God in order to do good works. Of course, Adam had a relationship with God from his creation until he sinned and broke that relationship.

[Musicman1228]

Shane,

Both comments are nicely put.

[Dr. Shane]

Well, the relationship with God can be a relationship with Him through our conscience, since God speaks to the heathen through their conscience. The heathen can do good works too but it is because in some measure God is working in them. At least, that is what I am inclined to believe.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Are you suggesting that the Scriptures teach that Jesus' human nature was exempt? that Jesus did not partake of the great law of heredity?

Not at all. I would suggest that sinless Adam was not able to do any good except for God. Man must have a relationship with God in order to do good works. Of course, Adam had a relationship with God from his creation until he sinned and broke that relationship.

Shane!!! my comment was addressed to musicman.

Couldn't you see that from what I had posted before?

You and I are saying the same thing.

sky

[skyblue888]

Well, the relationship with God can be a relationship with Him through our conscience, since God speaks to the heathen through their conscience. The heathen can do good works too but it is because in some measure God is working in them. At least, that is what I am inclined to believe.

I totally agree with that.

sky

[John317]

Shane,

IF what you say is true (and I believe it is) and the nature of Jesus Christ as a human being is the same nature as ours then Jesus had a depraved nature and could not have acted in the capacity of Passover Lamb, because the Passover Lamb could contain no 'spot or blemish' and still accomplish it's God designed purpose of purchasing a Kingdom for God (Rev.5:9-10).

But that's an interpretation you are putting on what it means for the Passover Lamb to be perfect. The Bible doesn't say that in order to be perfect, the Lamb couldn't be a human with the nature of the fallen Adam. What made Jesus perfect was that He never sinned, but whenever faced with a choice, He always chose to do the will of His Father. It was Jesus' character that was perfect. He was perfectly committed to doing God's will. Jesus condemned sin in the flesh. What kind of flesh? The same flesh that other humans have.

Even the rule regarding a perfect lamb for sacrifice didn't mean the lamb had to have the nature of lambs before the Fall.

Sin is choice, not nature. Adam sinned because of a choice, not because of his nature.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Shane,

IF what you say is true (and I believe it is) and the nature of Jesus Christ as a human being is the same nature as ours then Jesus had a depraved nature and could not have acted in the capacity of Passover Lamb, because the Passover Lamb could contain no 'spot or blemish' and still accomplish it's God designed purpose of purchasing a Kingdom for God (Rev.5:9-10).

But that's an interpretation you are putting on what it means for the Passover Lamb to be perfect. The Bible doesn't say that in order to be perfect, the Lamb couldn't be a human with the nature of the fallen Adam. What made Jesus perfect was that He never sinned, but whenever faced with a choice, He always chose to do the will of His Father. It was Jesus' character that was perfect. He was perfectly committed to doing God's will. Jesus condemned sin in the flesh. What kind of flesh? The same flesh that other humans have.

Even the rule regarding a perfect lamb for sacrifice didn't mean the lamb had to have the nature of lambs before the Fall.

Sin is choice, not nature. Adam sinned because of a choice, not because of his nature.

Right on!

Adam sinned in the perfect environment of paradise but Christ lived a sinless life in sinful flesh after 4,000 years of degeneracy.

sky

[Dr. Shane]

What, generally, is the position of Adventists on the total depravity of man? That would mean that without God, man is completely evil and has no good in him.

I was watching the Carter Report last night and according to Pastor John Carter, Calvinists are correct in their understanding of the total depravity of man.

[karl]

This is why we need a new life, new heart, and right spirit given to us (Ezekiel 36:26.) New birth, new creature, total life/blood transfusion.

With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

Or, as we summarize the first three steps in AA, "I can't. He can. Let Him do it!"

[Gerr]

That's why Paul calls it "body of sin" and "body of death."

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Shane,

IF what you say is true (and I believe it is) and the nature of Jesus Christ as a human being is the same nature as ours then Jesus had a depraved nature and could not have acted in the capacity of Passover Lamb, because the Passover Lamb could contain no 'spot or blemish' and still accomplish it's God designed purpose of purchasing a Kingdom for God (Rev.5:9-10).

But that's an interpretation you are putting on what it means for the Passover Lamb to be perfect. The Bible doesn't say that in order to be perfect, the Lamb couldn't be a human with the nature of the fallen Adam. What made Jesus perfect was that He never sinned, but whenever faced with a choice, He always chose to do the will of His Father. It was Jesus' character that was perfect. He was perfectly committed to doing God's will. Jesus condemned sin in the flesh. What kind of flesh? The same flesh that other humans have.

Even the rule regarding a perfect lamb for sacrifice didn't mean the lamb had to have the nature of lambs before the Fall.

Sin is choice, not nature. Adam sinned because of a choice, not because of his nature.

Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. Ex.12:5.

Do you disagree that the sacrifice of the Passover Lamb for Israel in Egypt is a metaphor for what Jesus would do for the Kingdom of Heaven in purchasing that Kingdom for God by His death on the cross? What then does 'without blemish' mean, if not completely without sin both inside and out?

Did not Jesus say He was with the Father before the foundation of the world? If this is true (rhetorical, asked and answered) then would Jesus not have EXACTLY the same nature after His birth as a human being as He did before His birth? If we extend the Passover metaphor to the birth of Jesus would the physical body of the Son of God the parents of which were the Father and the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35, Matt.1:18, John 1:1-3) be anything less than perfect? And if both the body and the spirit of Jesus were anything less than perfect would He then be even able to act as the Passover Lamb and purchase that Kingdom for God?

How would Jesus have been found worth to take the scroll from the hand of His Father had He been anything less than the perfect sacrifice that made the payment for the Kingdom?

And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. Rev.5:5,7.

Had Jesus had ANY sin in Him of ANY kind (including a sinful nature derived from any human being) He would not have been found worthy to make the purchase of the Kingdom of Heaven, and we would all be lost.

And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,   (10) and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” Rev.5:9-10.

Thankfully, Jesus WAS found completely worthy, and by this we have the OPPORTUNITY (not the guarantee) that we can become members of the Kingdom of Heaven, subject to our acknowledgment and implimentation of the requirements of membership in that Kingdom:

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev.12:17.

[John317]

The reason Jesus was perfect was not because of his birth but because he always chose to obey His Father's commandments. That is why He was a perfect sacrifice.

Jesus didn't have a sinful mind, and the Bible says we are to have the mind of Christ. Merely being human didn't make Christ commit sin, and merely being human doesn't make us sin, either. That's the lesson we can draw from the life of Christ. If we have no choice but to commit sin, then God is unjust and unreasonable to command us to obey His commandments. And if that is the case, then Satan is right and God is wrong. Satan accuses God of making laws that mankind can't obey. But Jesus proved that with the Holy Spirit, man can obey God. Jesus condemned sin in the flesh. What kind of flesh? In the same flesh that all the sons of Adam have. And why did Christ do this? In order that the law of God might be fulfilled in us.

That is why Romans 8: 1-4 says,

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, [who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit]. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

NOTE: We can obey God only by the power of the Holy Spirit. WE have access to the same powers to live righteously before God that Jesus Christ had. Jesus lived perfectly not because of His brith but because of his complete reliance upon the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the angels of God. Whenever He was faced with a choice between sin and God's will, Christ always chose to do God's will. Believers who are indwelt by God's Spirit are enabled to do the same. God restores our liberty to be what He designed us to be. 2 Corinthians 3: 17-18. We no longer need to be slaves of Satan but theough His Spirit we now become slaves of God and slaves of righteousness. Romans 6: 1-2, 15-23.

[John317]

...Thankfully, Jesus WAS found completely worthy, and by this we have the OPPORTUNITY (not the guarantee) that we can become members of the Kingdom of Heaven, subject to our acknowledgment and implimentation of the requirements of membership in that Kingdom:

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev.12:17.

But if the reason Jesus obeyed the commandments was that He was born without a sinful nature, how can He be an example of obedience to God for those who are born with a sinful nature? How can we hope to keep the commandments of God if the only way anyone can obey them is to have a sinless nature?

Humans won't have a sinless nature until the resurrection, which takes place at the second coming of Christ. Yet the Bible teaches that through the Holy Spirit, believers may become partakers of the nature of God, even while we are in sinful flesh. 2 Peter 1: 4; Ephesians. This is what Christ did. As a human, Christ partook of the divine nature through the Holy Spirit and through His constant trust in God.