Sorcerers/Magicians

[Amelia]

[:"red"] Exodus 7:8-13

8 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, 9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent. 10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. 11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. 12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods. 13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. [/]

So I'm sitting here watching the first of many showings of "The Ten Commandments" for Easter and wondered; does the conjering powers of Pharohs court magicians still exist today? Or is that power now being seen as the more subtle wooing of drugs,sex,money etc?

[Nicodema]

Some people get into the occult because occultists have good connections for the hedonistic lifestyle -- lots of sex, drugs, etc., sometimes money (LOL -- in the O.T.O. we had a really good laugh at how the trogs [outsiders in the world] always thought we were rich and politically powerful!!). Others get into it for more spiritual reasons, both "light" and dark -- to conjure and communicate with spirit entities, to obtain powers, favors, etc. and have means of that beyond or outside of what is available to regular people in the world. Some get into it to develop their own "system" and/or their own cult of personality through it. There's all kinds of reasons.

It's hard to describe how magick works to someone who has never done it before, but it sounds to me like Pharaoh's court had some interesting mixture of stage magic and real (occult) magick. The trick with the sticks was just that -- a trick. Real magick works more like ritualized prayer.

Hope that helps.

Nico

[Amelia]

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The trick with the sticks was just that -- a trick

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You mean like slight of hand? One of my cousins is a card carrying magician. He does great slight of hand. He can put quarters into pop bottles. Float balls on hankerchiefs. Cut people in half. The whole bag of tricks. Even had his own tv show in Montana for a while. But I never considered that magic to be sinister/evil.(maybe it is and Im wrong but he's family) While the magics talked about in the bible bear more of an satanic slant. Or like mojo in voodooism. Practitioners really beieve in their spells and potions and those on the receiving end seem to equally believe in their power.(like being turned into a zombie) But is this all mind over matter or is the devils level of power really backing this stuff. I truely believe Gods power is greater than all; after all his rod ate the court magicians rods. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

[Nicodema]

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But is this all mind over matter or is the devils level of power really backing this stuff.

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i don't think it's really that cut and dried. honestly. because spiritual laws (legitimate ones) require faith to operate as well, so also are their counterfeits. a certain degree of faith is ALWAYS involved because reality gets "hacked" (or altered) on the level of our experience and perceptions of it. Ultimate reality, where God dwells, is inalterable, perfect like Himself, because it is limitless like Himself. But the slices of chaos and order we experience are subject to change and alteration.

If you were to study Aleister Crowley's theorems of magick you would probably come to understand some basic principles involved. All acts of will are magickal acts, the magickian draws upon the power of the will and the power of the mind to effect change according to his will, and/or change of consciousness in accordance with will.

Thus with prayer, for example, we have faith in accordance with our knowledge of how God operates. Something happens that corresponds to our prayers and we tag it as coming from God as His answer -- that's where faith comes into play, in the perceptual construct. You with me so far? Now with magick it is similar. One conjures for things and gets certain results. Those results are then constructed mentally as the effects of the conjuration, "by faith" if you will.

So it's not so easily cut and dried to say is it mental or is it real, because reality IS mental in part, in any case, and all our experience of it involves conscious or unconscious construction thereof.

Magick operates as a set of psycho-spiritual tools for hacking reality and creating these alterations, entering more deliberately into the processes of these constructs, just as faith does. It's simply from a different perspective or arguably, from a different force.

Hope that helps.

Nico

[Clio]

All power on the side of the Adversary is founded on the power of Abba.

Now... before you roast me... hear me out.

Abba Father is omnipotent. All life, all power, all everything is originally His as the I AM and the Most High.

Abba created all things based on His Holy Laws. All Creation is subject to His Law and all it's attendant Holy Principles.

The Adversary is a created being. All that he is, has it's generation in Abba, prior to his rebellion and fall.

The Adversary knows that Abba's spiritual principles work, and that profaning them diminishes their power but it's still possible to use them for profane purpose instead of their Holy applications.

Thus does magick work... through a profane application of Abba's Holy Law and it's attendant principles.

This is a core truth that the Adversary also knows... but he works very hard to keep that knowledge from his victims.

Clio

[Ron Lambert]

Well said, Clio. I believe God has allowed a spiritual power to be available in the universe, right along with the power of energy and material properties, and the fallen angels know how to use this. We could use it too. Perhaps a few of the reports of sporadic manifestations of things like telekenesis, precognition, thought transferrence between widely separated people, etc., actually involve using what you referred to as "spiritual principles." However, I would also strongly warn that it is dangerous for any of us humans to enter into this area, because we are so limited now in mind and spirit and knowledge. Just using materials science, things can sometimes blow up in our faces (it is risky to make nitroglycerine, useful though it is). So much more is this true for spiritual powers, about which we have so little understanding. Especially because there are fallen angels all around us who understand these spiritual powers very well, and can easily take advantage of us and mislead us and get us to do something even worse than any mistake we might make with materials science.

The angels of God seem to be instructed to shield us from harm from use by others of spiritual powers, if we avoid it ourselves. Of course, it is just common sense that you can best avoid radiation poisoning by staying away from anything radioactive. But even more, Christians have a special protection, because "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus...." (Romans 8:1a; NKJV). I believe this implies that you cannot curse a Christian, for one whom Christ has justified is no longer subject to any form of condemnation. Indeed, anyone who dares to curse a Christian will likely have the curse rebound back upon his or her own head.

[Nicodema]

I don't want to in ANY way belabor or otherwise tout the power of the enemy -- far from it -- but I think we have to recognize two very basic things here in this realm of spiritual laws and spiritual power.

First: we are in a war zone. In the war that Satan presses against God and His throne, we are all simultaneously both players upon the cosmic battlefield as well as, in a very real sense, battlefields ourselves.

Second: the enemy does not play fair. The devil is not "nice" and he does not play "fair." He does not consult some "honorable code of spiritual warfare" before taking EVERY advantage he possibly can in this war against even our most innocent foolishnesses, weaknesses, or mistakes. This can be anything from indulging a grudge to dabbling with things Satan claims as HIS territory.

This means Christian OR NOT, if someone opens a door, they can expect Satan to take full advantage of that, and go through that open door, gaining entrance and a foothold, looking to establish a stronghold. Simply running to God after the fact and begging forgiveness does not always ameliorate or curtail the consequences, either (though YES God ALWAYS forgives us). And those consequences can be devastating ... even deadly.

So Ron while I get what you're saying in essence, I also have to caution that merely being a Christian is not enough to guarantee we won't be the special focus of the enemy's attack. In fact, we will all the more be the special focus of his attack BECAUSE we belong to Christ. The enemy therefore hates us MOST! He doesn't need to go after those that are already HIS, after all. So while we are definitely NO MORE under ANY form of condemnation, we would be foolish if we thinks this gives us license or carte blanche to toy with the devil's ground with impunity.

It is not God who watches us like a hawk ready to catch us out in any tiny sin so He can "pounce" with punishment ... it is Satan! Satan is the accuser and condemner, and Satan is the ultimate uber-legalist when it comes to this sort of thing. And just because someone had good, honest, noble, "GODLY" intentions for, say, dabbling with unscriptural methods of "making contact with God" does NOT mean they are exempt from Satan taking notice and claiming ground as fast as he can in the matter.

Just some hard lessons learned through experience ...

Nico

[Ron Lambert]

Of course. It would be presumption for Christians to think their protected status gives them the opportunity to play on the devil's ground with impunity. But as long as we refrain from giving the devil an entry, I don't think we need to fear some coven trying to curse us. If God will not let Satan do this, He certainly will not let mere humans. Satan's main weapon against us is intimidation, when he's not trying to seduce us.

[Clio]

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Ron Lambert said:

I believe God has allowed a spiritual power to be available in the universe, right along with the power of energy and material properties, and the fallen angels know how to use this. We could use it too. Perhaps a few of the reports of sporadic manifestations of things like telekenesis, precognition, thought transferrence between widely separated people, etc., actually involve using what you referred to as "spiritual principles."

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You are correct in this.

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However, I would also strongly warn that it is dangerous for any of us humans to enter into this area, because we are so limited now in mind and spirit and knowledge.

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It is forbidden.

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So much more is this true for spiritual powers, about which we have so little understanding. Especially because there are fallen angels all around us who understand these spiritual powers very well, and can easily take advantage of us and mislead us and get us to do something even worse than any mistake we might make with materials science.

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True. But there are humans who knowingly enter into this realm, and who follow the dark prophecies, just as we follow those in Abba's word.

Remember, we are told, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge".

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The angels of God seem to be instructed to shield us from harm from use by others of spiritual powers, if we avoid it ourselves.

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No. By not stepping on to the adversary's ground, he has no legal spiritual authority to harm us. Whether we open the door knowingly or unknowingly doesn't matter. He cheats.

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But even more, Christians have a special protection, because "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus...." (Romans 8:1a; NKJV).

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No, they do not.

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I believe this implies that you cannot curse a Christian, for one whom Christ has justified is no longer subject to any form of condemnation. Indeed, anyone who dares to curse a Christian will likely have the curse rebound back upon his or her own head.

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Not if there is anything, anything at all in that person's life that opens the door.

Recently, I became convinced that there was a curse operating in my life and my family's life, even after the generational curse laid on my husband's bloodline in 1568 was removed by True Jesus' blood.

I had recently done a study on blessings and curses in the Bible. Did you know they and their consequences are mentioned over 600 times? And there are more curses mentioned than blessings.

Anyway, I had become convicted that two pieces of artwork, temple rubbings, gorgeous from Thailand were in fact embodying a curse. I had taken them off my wall, but they were still sitting by my front door. I was having terrible difficulties resigning them to being destroyed, because like you, I didn't believe Christians could actually be cursed.

But over time, as different things happened, it became absolutely apparent there was something evil at work within a 10foot radius of those pictures in their beautiful frames, special protective glass, and with all my family history attached to them. You see, they were gifts from my parents, and made by my brother when he was in Viet Nam in 1968.

Finally, in obedience, I took them to the dump, with my husband, along with a shovel to destroy them with.

We put them in the dumpster, and after a short prayer, I swung the shovel at the first one. I swung full force, and the blade of the shovel impacted the glass in a direct blow. AND THE GLASS DID NOT BREAK. Three times I did this.

I then handed the shovel to Mike, and said, "Before you take a swing, I need to say a prayer. Abba is not letting that glass break for a reason."

I prayed, placed a hedge of protection around those pictures, around us, and told Jesus to take anything that came out of them when we destroyed them and do with it according to His perfect will. I also claimed the Power of Jesus Blood for Mike as he swung the shovel. In my prayer I also acknowledge Mike as the head of our home, and that I was voluntarily stepping under his authority.

Mike then took the shovel, and holding it as a sword, (which was different than how I had held it), he attacked the first picture. That glass still didn't break the first time... but when it did, I was glad it was in the dumpster. It practically exploded. Same with the second one of the pair.

We have not been troubled by the problems that were occurring in our home since.

"My people are destroyed by lack of knowledge"

I would urge you to prayerfully study the writings of Derek Prince in regard to this topic. He has a book out called Blessings and Cursings.

Clio

[Nicodema]

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Ron Lambert said:

... as long as we refrain from giving the devil an entry, I don't think we need to fear some coven trying to curse us.

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I agree. We can walk with confidence in obedience to Him, being assured of His protection.

[Clio]

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Nicodema said:

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Ron Lambert said:

... as long as we refrain from giving the devil an entry, I don't think we need to fear some coven trying to curse us.

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I agree. We can walk with confidence in obedience to Him, being assured of His protection.

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Agree with both of you. The special protection only extends as long as we keep that door closed. And it doesn't matter to the enemy whether or not that door was opened in ignorance or knowledge.

Clio