Does having paranormal experiences make one more of a believer or less

[abelisle]

Does seeing apparitions, hearing voices, feeling strong urges to harm oneself etc. - do these things make one more of a believer or less?

We know that in Bible times, people witnessed miracles and still didn't believe so can we assume that the same scenario would play out now in our time?

When I've asked doctor friends trained at our medical school at Loma Linda, about how they dealt with demonic possession in terms of psychiatric training, I was told that it was viewed either as MPD (mutiple personality disorder) or as a form of psychosis, which brings into play the question "do Adventist doctors believe in paranormal phenomena?"

From the experience of fellow Adventists who have these experiences, they seem to be strengthened in their belief of the existence of God and Satan. For those who haven't had these experiences, there might be questions as to the mental health of these individuals.

Personally, I'm not making a statement either for or against but want to ask questions re: the validity of these so called paranormal experiences and why are they not experienced by all and why aren't our own doctors/psychiatrists/therapists taught their trade with the assumption that these events are real?

Right now, I wonder if I would have my belief strengthened by having these experiences or simply driven to think that I'm "losing it"? (pardon the pun)

Finally, if medication reduces or negates these experiences, then are they simply manifestations of our minds that are chemically induced within persons having chemical imbalances to begin with?

Alex

[cricket]

Sounds to me like you want to know if these types of experiences are real or only perceived as being real by those experiencing them.

For the intellectual, there is no degree of certainty this side of eternity.

[abelisle]

So - can anyone tell me why we don't have anything to say about our Adventist medical school not professing belief through their psychiatric instruction in the reality of demonic possession and paranormal situations but we get very upset about our science professors who question the literal 7 day creation week?

Is there some hypocrisy here or contextual/historic readings of Biblical examples of these events that our scholars have some interpretation for? If Satan is real and so are his angels, why aren't we acknowledging it in our academic institutions?

Alex

[cricket]

Do those you've queried in the medical profession give credence to God working miracles?

[Overaged]

Sometimes; demonic possession is dismissed as "mental illness;" but conversely, most people, Adventists included, would not have a clue on how to figure it out. Most psychiatric diagnoses is philosophically based, rather than evidence based. I know someone who went for "counselling" to 3 different "professionals," and got 3 different diagnosis!

If we were to look at the examples of "paranormal" experiences/demonic possession in the Bible; we would not get the same picture of it as we are typically led to believe.

Have you read about "the witch of Endor" in the Bible? What did you think of this story?

[John317]

There's no single reason for the symptoms you describe. It's impossible to diagnose someone merely on the basis of their having those symptoms, because they have various causes. The individual himself will usually know eventually what the problem is. People who are possessed most often come to realize they have a demonic problem, and if they sincerely want help and deliverance, God will lead them to someone who can help them be free. The only way for these people to be free is through prayer-- not their own but other people's.

Adventist doctors at LLU have been known to recommend to pastor's the patients who they suspect have a demonic problem. Psychiatrists have also done this.

[fccool]

I do agree with you, John, yet at the same time many individuals are unaware of the problem. Much of those problems stem from human perception which becomes altered by humans themselves.

I've had an aunt in law who was convinced that she was the next E.G.White. She would go around saying the most outrageous prayers and hijacking Church podiums with "messages from God". It was both entertaining and saddening. Eventually, the behavior was a response to her inability to cope with her son not obeying her and deciding not to follow a medical career. Psychiatric help did work in her case, and she's back to her normal self once she realized what's going on.

I think that in religious context it's a lot easier to get carried away, because those tricks of the mind almost automatically assume supernatural elements or demonic possession.

There are people in the world who live with broken mind, recognize it and cope with it. There's a good book on these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Mistook_His_Wife_for_a_Hat

[John317]

Sure, I agree with everything you said there. That's why it's never a good thing for people to think they can diagnose demon possession simply by hearing about symptoms that people might have. Mental problems are often due to many other things unrelated to demon possession. It's always necessary to spend time with the individual and hear what they have to say about it before anyone can be certain. But it is also always best to let people bring up the topic. NEVER TELL PEOPLE THAT YOU THINK THEY ARE DEMON POSSESSED. That is exactly the wrong way to approach it and can be very damaging and of course may be totally wrong.

It's true, as you say, that there are many people who don't realize that their problem is primarily spiritual, but I really do believe that God knows the heart and therefore knows when these people want help. Such people often can't pray to Christ, but they don't have to in order for God to know the desires of their heart. He helps them make contact with other Christians who can help them.

[John317]

Google books written on topic by Vaughn Allen, such as The War Is Real (And So Is the Victory), You Can Be Free, Victory on the Battlefield, Delivered From Demon Possession, and More Than a Match. He wrote 7 in all, and several of them have been used in the prison ministry.

The author was an SDA pastor who worked for most of his life as an SDA educator and administrator. He became involved in helping people who were possessed after helping a lady who lived near his home in Loma Linda. He did not go looking for it. But he eventually "worked with" hundreds of people who asked for his help. Other SDA pastors, as well as his wife and a daughter, also worked alongside of pastor Allen. He did this up until only a couple of years before his death. Many churches throughout North America asked him to give seminars, and he got phone calls from hundreds of people who needed help. Doctors and pyschiatrists sometimes called him in order to help with patients who they said they no longer knew what to do for and suspected of having a spiritual problem. These included many highly educated people.

By the way, most of his books were actually given away freely, although today you can still order The War Is Real and Victory on the Battlefield at the ABC. "Vaughn Allen" was my dad's middle name.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

There's no single reason for the symptoms you describe. It's impossible to diagnose someone merely on the basis of their having those symptoms, because they have various causes. The individual himself will usually know eventually what the problem is. People who are possessed most often come to realize they have a demonic problem, and if they sincerely want help and deliverance, God will lead them to someone who can help them be free. The only way for these people to be free is through prayer-- not their own but other people's.

Adventist doctors at LLU have been known to recommend to pastor's the patients who they suspect have a demonic problem. Psychiatrists have also done this.

yes..John317 is correct.. but I will add that other non-SDA Christian physicians have done the same with their patients. And nearly all the witches I know also have PTSD.

[Overaged]

It's true, as you say, that there are many people who don't realize that their problem is primarily spiritual,

True demon possession is quite rare; whereas "spiritual problems" are common. Having "spiritual problems" does not usually mean the person has demon possession. I wonder if there is an accurate definition of demon possession that anyone could provide. My bet would be that there is MORE THAN ONE floating around out there. It's almost like each person who "helps" those with "demon possession" can just come up with their own definition, and then "cure" it.

[John317]

That's right, Pam. I didn't mean to give the impression that only SDAs do this work. God is no respector of persons.

[John317]

True demon possession is quite rare; whereas "spiritual problems" are common. Having "spiritual problems" does not usually mean the person has demon possession. I wonder if there is an accurate definition of demon possession that anyone could provide. My bet would be that there is MORE THAN ONE floating around out there. It's almost like each person who "helps" those with "demon possession" can just come up with their own definition, and then "cure" it.

It's not as rare as most people think. And it's nothing like in a movies.

You're right that having "spiritual problems" per se doesn't necessarily mean the person is demon possessed. But when I spoke of "spiritual problems" in my previous post, I was simply distinguishing between physical, chemical/psychological problems and spiritual problems.

There are degrees of Satan's influence over people. Satan's attacks don't only come in the form of demon possession but also in harassment and control. Ellen White says that if we are not controlled by God, we are controlled by Satan. Many people who are not possessed by demons are controlled by him. The main thing we need to realize is how important it is for us to be fully surrendered to Christ's will at all times. As Ellen White has said, isn't necessary to enlist in Satan's army in order to march under his banner.

[BSW]

A partial surrender to truth gives Satan free opportunity to work. Until the soul-temple is fully surrendered to God, it is the stronghold of the enemy. This influence is leading souls away from the grand old waymarks into false paths. When the mind becomes confused... it is almost impossible to make these deceived souls see that it is the adversary who has confused their senses and polluted the soul-temple. A tissue of lies is placed where truth, and truth alone, should be. The word of God is a dead letter to them, and the Saviour's love is unknown. {RH, November 28, 1899 par. 5}

"Come out from among them, and be ye separate." Will we hear the voice of God and obey, or will we make half-way work of the matter, and try to serve God and mammon? Christ has placed before us the conditions of eternal life. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God," he says, "with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." "This do, and thou shalt live." Those who hear from the lips of Christ the words, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant," will be heroic ministers of righteousness. They may never preach a discourse from the pulpit, but, loyal to a sense of God's claims upon them, and jealous for his honor, they will minister to the souls who are the purchase of Christ's blood. They will see the necessity of carrying into their work a willing mind, an earnest spirit, and a hearty, unselfish zeal. They will not study how best they can preserve their own dignity, but by care and thoughtfulness will seek to win the hearts of those whom they serve. On every hand the agents of Satan will seek to induce them to sin, but those who will to love and fear God will stand as firm as a rock to their heaven-inspired purpose. Like Daniel, they will refuse to be moved from their convictions of duty. {RH, November 28, 1899 par. 6}

May we all be hero's for Jesus, before it's to late!!

[John317]

... if medication reduces or negates these experiences, then are they simply manifestations of our minds that are chemically induced within persons having chemical imbalances to begin with?

Sure, those symptoms in some people are because of the causes you mention. But that doesn't mean all people have those symptoms for those same reasons. The drugs given to people can merely suppress or hide the symptoms of demon possession, but the problem will still remain.