Guest Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 MM, after you and wayfinder get through teaching in that Sabbath school class, things that are wrong, but that you think are right. Do you then go in and sit down and listen to the preacher preach a sermon that you believe to be total falshood, or do you just leave and go on home? Thinking you've done all you can do for one day. Just curious. Quote
Musicman1228 Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 MM, after you and wayfinder get through teaching in that Sabbath school class, things that are wrong, but that you think are right. Do you then go in and sit down and listen to the preacher preach a sermon that you believe to be total falshood, or do you just leave and go on home? Thinking you've done all you can do for one day. Just curious. Richard, I'm just trying to find truth. I don't question you commitment to finding truth so why do you feel the need to constantly question mine? Do you really believe that wayfinder and I would teach anything that we believed to be false? Of course we don't believe that what we are teaching is error, because if we did we wouldn't be teaching it. Aside for the fact that neither of us consider ourselves 'teachers': we are just letting people know what we have already learned-it is up to them to decide if it is true or not. I invite you to join me on my new thread - "For whom did Jesus Christ die?". I truly do want your input. If I was afraid of finding the truth would I make this invitation to you? Quote
Guest Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Righteous is accomplished through a process of learning. I'm not saying that one doesn't learn while being sanctified. But the process of learning is NOT what sanctifies a person. It is the Holy Spirit that sanctifies. No amount of knowledge can sanctify you. Zec 3:3,4 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. And he answered and spoke unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused your iniquity to pass from you, and I will clothe you with rich apparel. Tell me wayfinder, what did Joshua learn while he was standing there, that caused his iniquity to pass from him? Quote
Guest Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook MM, after you and wayfinder get through teaching in that Sabbath school class, things that are wrong, but that you think are right. Do you then go in and sit down and listen to the preacher preach a sermon that you believe to be total falshood, or do you just leave and go on home? Thinking you've done all you can do for one day. Just curious. Richard, I'm just trying to find truth. I don't question you commitment to finding truth so why do you feel the need to constantly question mine? I really want to know if you listen to the sermon or not. I am not questioning your commitment to anything. Quote
Guest Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Rev 12:11 And they did overcome him because of the blood of the Lamb... Notice that they did not overcome because of their knowledge, or their learning. Quote
wayfinder Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 John 16:13 NAS "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth ; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak ; and He will disclose to you what is to come. John 17:17 NAS "Sanctify them in the truth ; Your word is truth. John 14:26 NAS "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. The Holy Spirit is the Helper/Teacher. We learn righteousness and practice righteousness that we have learned from the Spirit of Truth. The Holy Spirit gives us the understanding of the truth and we practice what we have learned. Richard, I know you know this and believe it, and we will work together sometime in the very near future, I trust. Quote
Guest Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Simply knowing the truth doesn't sanctify anybody. Satan KNOWS the truth. Jas 1:22 But be you doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Quote
wayfinder Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 And I would like to add this. 1 John 1:6 NAS If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; Quote
Musicman1228 Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 I find it instructive to not that Paul often speaks of justification but he never speaks about the process of sanctification. I wonder why. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 23, 2011 Moderators Posted January 23, 2011 Are you positive Paul does not talk about the process of sanctification? Here's some of what he says: Romans 6:19-22 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. [20] When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. [21] But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death. [22] But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 1 Thes. 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Remember that sanctification is both a process and an intantaneous act of God. People are set apart for God's purposes at the time they are set in right relationship with God. The latter takes place when a person sincerely and honestly puts their faith in Christ as Lord and Savior. But then there's a process of growth and becoming closer to being like Christ throughout one's lifetime. For instance: 2 Cor. 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. Paul talks about this process of becoming more like Christ in Romans 6 and 8 and also Romans 7: 1-5. Additionally, there's Eph. 6: 10-20; Col. 3: 1-17; 1 Thess. 3: 11-13; 5: 1-11, 23. Please study closely all of the above verses. You will see that you may have missed some of Paul's writings on sanctification. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Musicman1228 Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Paul does mention the word sanctify several times, but he does not use this word in the same context as does Jesus Christ, and that is what I was pointing out. To Paul you are sanctified by being given it through grace. Jesus says that you are sanctified by his words. The difference is dramatic. Quote
skyblue888 Posted January 24, 2011 Author Posted January 24, 2011 "And now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified." Acts 20:32. "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." Rom.16:24. This is the word of His grace. "He speaks and it is done." Psalm 33:9. It is the voice of God speaking to the soul in promise. The grace of God is with us immediately if we believe that the merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to plead before the Father in order to obtain it. The grace of God is the Spirit of Christ, given to help our infirmities and to form a Christian character, and that is the work of sancitification. And "The grace of our Lord is exceedingly abundant with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." 1 Tim.1:14. "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grae and truth." John 1:14. sky "To testify to the Gospel of the grace of God." Acts 20:24. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted January 24, 2011 Author Posted January 24, 2011 If we believe that the merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf, the 10 words spoken from Sinai become promises to us of His justifying and sanctifying grace. "Grant me Your law graciously." Psalm 119:29. Every command that proceeds out of the mouth of God is full of grace and truth, full of the Spirit of Christ and "the Spirit is life because of righteousness." Rom.8:10. "The words that I SPEAK unto you, they are Spirit and they are life." John 6:63. Proceeding out of His mouth, the law of ten commandments is the law of His grace for it is the voice of God from Heaven speaking to the soul in promise. And if we still don't get it, we have no excuse, for, on account of the merits of Christ, His command is, "Grace be with you. Amen." 1 Tim.6:21. "Grace to you and peace be multiplied." 1 Peter 1:2. For those who rest in the merits of Christ for their acceptance with God, it is so immediately, for "He commands and it stands fast!" Ps.33:9; Rom.5:2. I praise His word, the word of His grace. sky "Recieve, I pray thee, the law from His mouth." Job 22:22. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted January 31, 2011 Author Posted January 31, 2011 If ever anyone presented the 1888 message in clear, distinct lines, it was Ellen White. You are invited to judge for yourselves. Is it not marvelous that in just a few words, we have here, so simply stated, the true religion, the only religion of the Bible, the latter rain message in clear, distinct lines: "How long will you hate and despise the messengers of God's righteousness? God has given them His message. They bear the word of the Lord: There is salvation for you (pardon and peace and joy and righteousness in the Holy Spirit) but only through the merits of Jesus Christ. The grace of the Holy Spirit has been offered to you again and again." Testimonies to Ministers, p.97. *parenthesis supplied But that message was resisted. (1 S.M.234,235) What could have caused resistance to this most precious message? Here is a clue: "When light begins to shine forth to make clear the plan of redemption to the people, the enemy works with all diligence, that the light may be shut away from the hearts of men." The Review and Herald, Sept.3, p.1889. These words were penned shortly after the proclamation of the message which God had intended to come to His people as the latter rain message: "We have been in the time of the latter rain since the Minneapolis meeting." E.G. White, 1893 General Conference Bulletin, p.377. How did the enemy succeed in blinding God's people and to cause them to reject the simple message of the merits and righteousness of Christ? The answer to this question is no less simple and clear: "Men are losing the right way, in consequence of thinking that they must climb to Heaven, that they must do something to merit the favor of God. This they can never accomplish." Letter 22, 1889. During a morning talk to ministers at the General Conference session held in November 1883, at Battle Creek, Michigan, Mrs. White said: "We have long desired and tried to obtain the blessings of the covenant of grace but have not received them because we have cherished the idea that we could do something to make ourselves worhty of them." In a general manuscrïpt written in 1890, the Lord described His people as being "in a fog of bewilderment." There were "discussions strenuously advocating creature merit, and each man striving for the supremacy." They needed "to discern with astonishment the utter worthlessness of creature merit." The Holy Spirit desired to fix their eyes, instead, upon the merits of a crucified and risen Savior! In an article of The Review and Herald, November 4, 1890, Mrs. White clarified the issue of righteousness by faith: "Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners; not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin." I am so amazed at the simplicity of the Gospel of the righteousness of Christ. If somehow this last statement did not do it for you, consider this: "Righteousness is obedience to the law. The law demands righteousness, and this the sinner owes to the law; but he is incapable of rendering it. The only way he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ." Ibid. Do you see how simple and clear the message of salvation is? "Bring to God the merits of Christ." This answered the question, What must I do to be saved? "Bring to God the merits of Christ." For the sinner who hungers and thirsts for salvation, God could not have made the plan of redemption more simple and He could not have taught it more clearly. In fact, in May 11, 1889, Mrs. White wrote: "The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." F.W.64. "Some seem to feel that they must be on probation and must prove to the Lord that they are reformed, before they may claim His blessing. But these dear souls many claim the blessing even now. They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities, or they cannot form a Christian character. Jesus loves to have us come to Him just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent." Faith and Works, p.38. "'Draw nigh to God and He will draw nigh to you.' Present your case before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross." Faith and Works, p.106. sky "We are accepted through Christ's merits alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of love, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merits of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works in and of themselves have no merit. When we have done all that is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. (Luke 17:10) We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed in the strength of our own sinful natures." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.5, p.1122. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
skyblue888 Posted January 31, 2011 Author Posted January 31, 2011 sorry i forgot to delete the last post... it doesn't belong there.. i typed it here to use somewhere else... :) Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Administrators Gail Posted January 31, 2011 Administrators Posted January 31, 2011 sorry i forgot to delete the last post... it doesn't belong there.. i typed it here to use somewhere else... You know as we get older, this only gets worse... Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
skyblue888 Posted February 2, 2011 Author Posted February 2, 2011 you tell me Gail! :) Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
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