Thief in Heaven that VERY DAY!!!

[ClubV12]

This is indeed MY original thought, although perhaps it's been discussed before? Hang with me while I set the background...

I recently finished reading the Great Controversy (terrific book). It says that when a person is resurrected, for good or bad, that your thoughts begin again at the very place they left off.

So Jesus assures the thief, This day thou shalt be with me in paradise. I say the leave the comma where it is, no need to move it!

The thief expires with this wonderful promise as his last thought. His NEXT THOUGHT, at the resurrection, is the fulfillment of the promise given at his death! Essentially, that "very day" he finds himself heaven bound.

Jesus was speaking to a man in great pain, about to die. There was no time for a deep theological discussion and explanation of the things to come. He, gave the man what he most needed at that time, with time so short. No baptism, no "works", no deep understanding of theology. Just simple faith, for the man, not for the multitude, not for us.

Or,,,, I could be totally wrong.

[wayfinder]

The problem is that the thief would not have died that very day. Crucifiction was a slow and painful death. The religeous authorities asked to have the criminals taken down before the Sabbath, it was at this time that it was noted that Jesus was dead. The legs of the other two were broken so they could not move far, if at all. Then again Luke is the only "gospel writer" who gives this account, and he was not there when it happened.

[Stan]

yeah that is the key, the Thief did not die that day. Seems to me that it took them several days to die, Christ died that day, the burden was heavy for him.

This is one of the good things about forums, to bring up ideas and discuss them.

[ClubV12]

You know, I was searching for several hours, even made some phone calls. I can't find any reference as to WHEN the thief died. Jesus' death is clear cut.

The assumption is that the "other guys" died later, leg breaking and all that... But where is a reference to when the thief died? Did he to, expire that day (Friday)? If his legs were broken, as was the custom, I'm not clear that actually happened to him, was that enough extra trauma to cause his expiration at that time?

And if he died the next day, or day after, then..... ?

[wayfinder]

Then we would need to move this thread from townhall to theology or...?

I will say this, Jesus would have been using the Jewish "day" calculations. The next day started at twilight and that was shortly to come, that is why the priests wanted the men taken down from their crosses. The thief would have still been alive at the beginning of the next day (sunset).

But please keep thinking it is very healthy, although it can often times separate you from the crowd.

[ClubV12]

I'll grant you it is unlikely the thief died because we know the soldiers were astonished that Jesus had died so soon. Crucification being a lingering death and all.

On the leg breaking, Desire of Ages (I'm reading that book now) says the soldiers broke their legs to "hasten their death", not to keep them from running away. Hastening their death, being the key reason for this act, might well have been carried out in most aggressive manner. Not just "simply" breaking their legs, but done in such a way as to specifically hasten their death. As in, before nightfall, in the case of at least one thief?

I don't have a problem with the punctuation, the reasoning is logical and fits nicely with the understanding of "death" and "resurrection" as we know it. But it does leave me wondering,,, "what if", the passage might read accurately, as written, by the interpreters of the KJV? Which, with an enhanced understanding of the thought process beginning where it left off, is also a reasonable possibility.

[Gail]

I love it! This is one of those cases where the original thoughts idea works nicely!

[fccool]

Well, you have to consider the preceding events.

1) Severe loss of blood through scourging and beating.

2) Extreme exhaustion and excretion that followed. He was made to carry extremely heavy object for miles having an ER-worthy condition. The wounds would not be patched, so you can imagine the amount of blood loss.

3) Hanging in such position dramatically restricts the oxygen and all of the blood loss would probably do the trick.

There's nothing mysterious about dying the same day given such conditions.

[wayfinder]

The other issue you must address it whether Jesus went to Paradise on that day to be with the thief, and the ramifications of that prospect.

[fccool]

The encounter could create a time paradox, the result of which could cause a chain reaction that would unravel the very fabric of the space-time continuum and destroy the entire universe!

Sorry, could not help myself :)

[ClubV12]

Of course neither Jesus nor the thief were in "heaven" that "very day", literally. The issue revolves around the concept and belief of "death".

In both cases, Jesus and the thief, neither could see beyond the grave. Just before Jesus died He was deeply concerned, even fearful, that sin was so abhorent to His Father that to be reconnected with Him would be impossible. He could not, even as we cannot, see beyond the grave. Yet in those final moments He committed His spirit to His Father, in faith, trusting Him.

As the Great Controversy states, our thoughts begin again at the very moment where they left off at death. Jesus' thoughts would have revived with his "commitment of His spirit" unto His Father.

Because death is a sleep, there is no noticeable passage of "time". The moment of death is "instantly" followed by the moment of re-awakening (be that good or bad, in an early or late time frame, same same).

To the thief, therefore, his thoughts begin exactly where they left off. IF he died that same day as Jesus, his NEXT thought, that "very day" was that he was was indeed "heaven bound". To him there was no passage of time. Essentially, he was in fact with Jesus "today".

We typically look for a single meaning to any given verse, why not multiple meanings for some verses? "Today, ", comma, is one meaining. "Today" with no comma is another. Perhaps there is room for both!

...or not, just musing on the wonders of God's love.

[fccool]

Hmm,

That's very dramatic and edgy, but is it really reasonable? If Christ is God... the same God with the father, then how can they be separated? Can you be separated from yourself?

[ClubV12]

I assume you are referring to the thought that Christ could not see beyond the tomb, and wondered if His work was acceptable to His Father? Would He be separated from His Father because of the Fathers great abhorence of sin? Finally, He simply commited Himself to His Fathers will, by faith. His death was caused not by crucification or the resulting wounds, but by the thought that He would be separated from His Father. The end result was literally a broken heart to the point of death.

That is the scenario the Desire of Ages lays out, as I understand it. To me, it is a marvelous insight in to how much Jesus, who was "God", became "man" in EVERY sense of the word. He totally gave up any aspect of Godliness and became totally dependant on His Father in every aspect of life, and death, as we are. Even unto death, he could not see beyond the tomb, beyond death, except by faith only. He did not raise Himself on the 3rd day or excercise His Godliness in any way, His Father did that for Him. Jesus' work was indeed, "acceptable" to His Father.

His death and resurection were separated by days, but by His sense of "time" it was virtually an instant. As it will be for all of mankind.

[wayfinder]

Eve was separated from Adam (taken out of him), but the two remained one flesh. This is like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three beings which act, think, and speak, as one

[see - Genesis 2:23 NAS]

[wayfinder]

[Matthew 16:21 NAS]

It would appear that Jesus did see past the grave.

[ClubV12]

Thats an interesting point wayfinder, that because He knew and had great knowledge of the "truth" and the "plan" He would of course understood the outcome and thus "saw beyond the grave".

Which then begs the question, why did He ask, "...why have you forsaken me?" Why would He even ask the question, with all His understanding and knowledge of the things to come? Surely He knew better?

We to may have an excellent understanding of "things", the plan and future events. But those "best laid plans" are often called into question when things take a terrible turn for the worst. When our faith and knowledge are tested at extreme levels, when all around us seems to be very dark indeed, with no hope. It is then we question, in spite of our knowledge, training and education, "...why have you forsaken me?" But Jesus rallied at the very end, by faith, he committed His spirit unto the Father, that HIS will be done in all things.

Jesus was very much "human", even unto the last seconds of His life.

[wayfinder]

[Matthew 27:45 NAS]

This is my own thought on this account. The reason for the darkness was that the Father came down from the heavens to be with His Son hanging on the cross, that was the reason for the darkness. God must "cloak" Himself with darkness or the brightness of His glory will consume most everything in sight. It was at the ninth hour that the darkness left and it was also at that time the Son of God say to His departing Father, why are you leaving Me behind. When I think about this, it makes me pause with emotion to imagine.

[Guest]

[speaking of Jesus seeing beyond the grave] Not necessarily. It's one thing to know intellectually days in advance that things will turn out ok. But quite another when you are in the middle of it, and it doesn't look like it's going to.

[ClubV12]

Having given this issue some serious study and thought I have concluded that the "comma" placed AFTER "today" is in fact the only possible SINGULAR solution to this verse. There is no "dual meaning" to it's interpretation, is my conclusion of the matter. It has been an interesting journey and discussion and well worth the time, in my opinion.

Youngs literal translation MODIFIED with the appropriate comma reads:

'Verily I say to thee To-day, with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

Like all of us, the thief will have no concept of the passage of time following death. Because there is no recognition or concept of time passing, the moment of death is, for all practical purposes, also the moment of resurection to new life (be that good or bad)!

But Jesus was not addressing that issue. He was simply assuring the thief there would be a place for him in the coming Kingdom,,, in due time. To the thief, that coming Kingdom will essentially happen at the very moment of his death. That fact then led me to contempate a possible dual meaning to Luke 23:43. My apologies to any one whom I might have upset with my newbie contemplations. :)