The Terri Schiavo Case

[Suzanne Sutton]

[:"red"]The Terri Schiavo Case [/]

Most of us are interested in this case. Much has been said and done. Perhaps we should know what happens to a person like Terri who has the feeding tube removed. Trial judge David Kopelman did the research and found out that the following happens:

* Her mouth would dry out and become caked with or coated with thick material.

* Her lips would become parched or cracked or fissured.

* Her tongue would become swollen and might crack.

* Her eyes would sink back into their orbits.

* Her cheeks would become hollow.

* The mucous (lining) of her nose might crack and cause her nose to bleed.

* Her skin would hang loose on her body and become dry and scaly.

* Her urine would become highly concentrated, causing burning of the bladder.

* The lining of the stomach would dry out, causing dry heaves and vomiting.

* She would develop hyperthermia, a very high body temperature.

* Her brain cells would begin to dry out, causing convulsions.

* Her respiratory tract would dry out, giving rise to very thick secretions, which could plug her lungs and cause death.

* Eventually her major organs would fail, including her lungs, heart and brain. --Source: Sacrifices of the New Age, by Paul de Parrie and Mary Pride.

The book also noted that in one such case where the feeding tube was removed, the parents of a 28-year-old comatose woman were told by doctors that their daughter would die quickly (within 3 to 9 days) if nourishment were withdrawn. Her feeding tube was removed but the daughter frustrated and embarrassed the medicos and the parents by taking 43 days to die.

Have mercy!

Suzanne

[Jeannieb43]

Suzanne, I've appreciated all your healthful nutrition comments. From those comments I inferred that you were medically trained. But I need to express (kindly, I hope) an opposing viewpoint when it comes to this topic here. I can tell that you are not familiar with medical care as it is administered these days--at least not familiar with end-of-life care.

I've personally witnessed end-stage coma in two of my dear family members, twice within the past two years. I can tell you that those "painful" experiences would not be allowed to happen to anyone who is in a permanent vegetative state. It just doesn't happen.

For one thing, the lips are kept moistened with glycerin swabs. The patient never has "dried-out" skin and lips. I won't try to itemize each and every one of your charges, but I know personally 90% of those problems which I saw dealt with in the case of my late husband's last illness (cancer) and my brother-in-law's lingering death after absence of brain activity due to a diabetic crisis. In neither case was the patient ever in any pain, or even uncomfortable [the doctors have methods of testing reflexes and reactions to stimuli even if the patient cannot speak]. I loved those men dearly, and I was at their bedsides constantly. I never had a single reason to worry that they were suffering.

This Schiavo case has been, IMHO, a trumped-up crisis in which even President Bush has done a 180 on his previous stand as to life support on a vegetative individual. It's totally a specious argument and should not be given one iota of credibility. [Why was it never brought up during the past 15 years???]

Though I disagree with you, I value your right to express your own opinion. That's the beauty of C/A.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/soapbox.gif" alt="" />

[Neil D]

Hey, Jean and Suzanne,

I appreciate each of your contributions to C/A.

I have found a place that seems pretty impartial to what is/has been happening with Terry....I thought to help spur discussion on this subject in the townhall, I would put up a chronology of Terry's life and events pertaining to the court case...Happy reading all...

ROUGH TIMELINE AND DECISIONS

I encourage anyone interested in this case to read the judicial decisions that have been entered. Most informative, from a factual point of view, are Judge Greer's orders and the Second District's decisions. The December 2003 guardian ad litem report to Governor Bush provides perhaps the most detailed factual chronology available.

December 1963… Terri's birth date

November 1984… Terri & Michael marry

[:"red"] February 1990…[/] Terri suffers cardiac arrest and a severe loss of oxygen to her brain

May 1990…Terri leaves hospital and is brought to a rehabiliation center for aggressive therapy

July 1990…Terri is brought to the home where her husband and parents live; after a few weeks, she is brought back to the rehabilitation center

November 1990…Terri is taken to California for experimental therapies

January 1991…Terri is returned to Florida and placed at a rehabilitation center in Brandon

July 1991…Terri is transfered to a skilled nursing facility where she receives aggressive physical therapy and speech therapy

[:"red"] May 1992 [/] …Michael and the Schindlers stop living together

January 1993…Michael recovers $1 million settlement for medical malpractice claim involving Terri's care; jury had ruled in Michael's favor on allegations [:"red"]Terri's doctors failed to diagnose her bulimia, which led to her heart failure; [/] case settled while on appeal

[:"red"] March 1994[/]…Terri is transferred to a Largo nursing home

[:"red"] May 1998 [/]…Michael files petition for court to determine whether Terri's feeding tube should be removed; Michael takes position that Terri would chose to remove the tube; Terri's parents take position that Terri would chose not to remove the tube

[:"red"] February 2000[/]…..Following trial, Judge Greer rules that clear and convincing evidence shows Terri would chose not to receive life-prolonging medical care under her current circumstances (i.e., that she would chose to have the tube removed)

March 2000…Judge Greer denies petition for more swallowing tests, finds it uncontested Terri cannot swallow sufficiently to live

[:"red"] April 2000 [/]…..Terri is transferred to a Hospice facility

[:"red"] January 2001[/] …..Second District Court of Appeal affirms the trial court's decision regarding Terri's wishes

[:"red"] April 23, 2001[/]… Florida Supreme Court denies review of the Second District's decision

April 23 or 24, 2001… Trial court orders feeding tube removed

April 24, 2001… Terri's feeding tube is removed for the first time

[:"red"] April 26, 2001[/]… Terri's parents file motion asserting they have new evidence regarding Terri's wishes

April 26, 2001… Trial court denies Terri's parents' motion as untimely

April 26, 2001… Terri's parents file new legal action against Michael Schiavo and request that the removal of Terri's feeding tube be enjoined; the case is randomly assigned to Judge Quesada

April 26, 2001… Judge Quesada grants the temporary injunction, orders Terri's feeding tube restored

July 2001…Second District rules that Judge Greer erred in denying the motion alleging new evidence and, in essence, orders the trial court to consider whether new circumstances make enforcement of the original order inequitable; Second District also reverses the temporary injunction and orders dismissal of much of the new action filed before Judge Quesada

(uncertain)…Terri's parents detail their reasons why enforcement is inequitable: (1) new witnesses have new information regarding Terri's wishes, and (2) new medical treatment could sufficiently restore Terri's cognitive functioning such that Terri would decide that, under those circumstances, she would continue life-prolonging measures; Terri's parents also move to disqualify Judge Greer

(uncertain)…Trial court denies both motions as insufficient

[:"red"] October 2001[/]…Second District affirms the denial of the motion to disqualify and the motion regarding the new witnesses; the appellate court reverses the order with regard to potential new medical treatments and orders a trial on that question with doctors testifying for both sides and a court-appointed independent doctor

[:"red"] March 2002[/] …Florida Supreme Court denies review of the Second District's decision

October 2002… Judge Greer holds a trial on the new medical treatment issue, hearing from doctors for both sides and a court-appointed independent doctor; Terri's parents also assert that Terri is not in a persistent vegetative state

Schindlers file emergency motion for relief from judgment based on a 1991 bone scan report indicating Terri's body had previously been subjected to trauma

November 22, 2002…Following trial, Judge Greer denies Schindlers' motion for relief (new medical evidence motion), rules that no new treatment offers sufficient promise of improving Terri's cognitive functioning and that Terri is, in fact, in a persistent vegetative state

November 22, 2002…On this same day, Judge Greer denies Schindlers' emergency motion related to the 1991 bone scan

June 2003…Second District affirms the trial court's decision denying Schindlers' motion for relief from judgment

[:"red"] August 22, 2003 [/]…Florida Supreme Court denies review of the Second District's decision

August 30, 2003…Terri's parents file federal action challenging Florida's laws on life-prolonging procedures as unconstitutional

September 17, 2003…Judge Greer denies Schindlers' motion to provide additional therapy, finding it an effort to retry the issues that were previously tried

October 10, 2003…Federal court dismisses Schindlers' case

October 15, 2003…Terri's feeding tube is removed for the second time

[:"red"] October 20, 2003[/] …Florida House passes a bill to permit the Governor to issue a stay in cases like Terri's and restore her feeding tube

October&nbsp21, 2003…Federal court rejects injunction request

[:"red"] October 21, 2003[/] …Florida House and Senate pass a bill known informally as "Terri's Law" to permit the Governor to issue a stay in cases like Terri's and restore her feeding tube ; Governor signs the bill into law and immediately orders a stay; Terri is briefly hospitalized while her feeding tube is restored

October21, 2003…Michael brings suit against the Governor, asking to enjoin the Governor's stay on grounds "Terri's Law" is unconstitutional; Judge Baird rejects Michael's request for an immediate injunction, allowing the tube to be restored, and requests briefs on the constitutional arguments involving the new law

[:"red"] November 7, 2003 [/]…Judge Baird rejects Governor's motion to dismiss Michael's suit and have case litigated in Tallahassee

November 20, 2003…Judge Baird rejects Governor's request for the judge to recuse himself

December 1, 2003…Guardian ad litem appointed under "Terri's Law" to advise Governor submits report to Governor

December 10, 2003…Second District rejects Governor's effort to have Judge Baird disqualified

April 2004…Second District affirms Judge Baird's decision denying Governor's motion to dismiss and have case litigated in Tallahassee

[:"red"] May 2004[/]…Judge Baird declares "Terri's Law" unconstitutional on numerous grounds

June 2004…Second District certifies "Terri's Law" case directly to the Florida Supreme Court

July 2004…Schindlers file new motion for relief from judgment based on Pope John Paul II speech

[:"red"] September 2004…[/] Florida Supreme Court affirms Judge Baird's ruling that "Terri's Law" is unconstitutional

October 2004…Judge Greer denies Schindlers' most recent motion for relief from judgment (motion based on Pope John Paul II speech)

[:"red"] December 1, 2004[/]…Governor asks U.S. Supreme Court to review Florida Supreme Court's decision declaring "Terri's Law" unconstitutional

December 29, 2004…Second District affirms (without written opinion) Judge Greer's ruling denying Schindlers' most recent motion for relief from judgment

January 6, 2005…Schindlers file new motion for relief from judgment, alleging Terri never had her own attorney, that the trial court impermissibly applied the law retroactively, and that the original trial on Terri's wishes violated separation of powers principles

[:"red"] January 24, 2005[/]…U.S. Supreme Court declines review in "Terri's Law" case

February 11, 2005…Judge Greer denies Schindlers' latest motion for relief from judgment (motion raising various due process challenges)

February 23, 2005…Florida's Department of Children and Families asks to intervene and for 60-day stay to permit investigation of alleged abuse

February 23, 2005…Schindlers file motion requesting new tests to determine Terri's status

February 25, 2005…Judge Greer rules motions appear endless, he will grant no further stays; sets March 18 date for removal of feeding tube

February 28, 2005…Schindlers file motion requesting that Terri be fed orally

March 2, 2005… Schindlers file new motion for relief from judgment, arguing factual error in original judgment

March 8, 2005… Judge Greer denies Schindlers' motion to feed Terri orally

March 9, 2005… Judge Greer denies Schindlers' motion requesting new tests

March 9, 2005… Judge Greer denies Schindlers' most recent motion for relief from judgment (motion based on factual error)

March 10, 2005… Judge Greer denies Department of Children and Families request to intervene and for stay, finds agency is free to investigate

March 16, 2005… Second District affirms Judge Greer's denial of Schindlers' motion raising various due process challenges, emphasizes law has been followed in this case

March 18, 2005… Schindlers file new federal action arguing due process violations in original trial; case assigned to Judge Moody

March 18, 2005… Judge Moody denies new federal claim, citing lack of jurisdiction

March 18, 2005… Congressional committee issues subpoenas for Michael, Terri, and Terri's caregivers to appear at hearing to be held at the hospice where Terri has stayed

March 18, 2005… Congressional committee files motion to intervene and modify order requiring the removal of Terri's feeding tube

March 18, 2005… Judge Greer denies congressional committee motion, ruling no grounds exist for intervention

March 18, 2005… Congressional committee requests Florida Supreme Court and Second District stay the feeding tube's removal

March 18, 2005… Terri's feeding tube removed for the third time

March 18, 2005… Florida Supreme Court denies congressional committee request, citing lack of jurisdiction

March 18, 2005… Second District denies congressional committee request as without merit

[:"red"] March 21, 2005… [/] Congress enacts Terri's Law II, authorizing Terri's parents to seek federal court review of whether Terri's federal rights have been protected

[Rosie]

Quote:

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The document I reproduce below was prepared by the hospice at which she resides, by their own doctors and nurses. It was produced in anticipation of the first time Terri's feeding tube was removed, in 2001. Anyone reading it with a rudmimentary knowledge of medicine will recognize that in Terri's case, and the cases of many others in similar situations, the so-called "treatment" that is given is in fact not treatment at all. It is a regimen of medication intended to perpetrate an illusion: the illusion that someone is peacefully "slipping away", when in fact they are dying in a painful and brutal way.

The document was given a name by those who wrote it. They called it Terri's "Exit Protocol".

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http://thrownback.blogspot.com/2005_03_13_thrownback_archive.html#111118109408509082

[Neil D]

I am sorry, Rosie...But anything written by a friar/father on the subject of euthenasia, allowing a person to die, is always gonna be a "painful and brutal way" of dying, and in my mind suspect.

Naproxen is also, and better known as "Alleve"...A mild pain reliever on the same level as aspirin. It is NOT concidered a pain medication near the level of valium.

And as much as I shocked and grieve for this woman and her dying wish, I am saddened by the way this nation has intruded upon her final wishes.

[Rosie]

Oh, no prob. I realize that not everyone is being fair and accurate in their write-ups-but I have major problems with this method of forced death.

Quote:

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And as much as I shocked and grieve for this woman and her dying wish, I am saddened by the way this nation has intruded upon her final wishes.

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This is not Terri's final wish, it's her husbands.

Just my opinion, however.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't know if she should live or die but I know she has a rat for a husband. One really has to wonder why he didn't just divorce her and get on with his life. I mean if Terri's parents want to keep her alive and pay for it, what is that to Micheal? I mean, is the life insurance policy on her that big? Why does he want her to die so bad? That is what doesn't make sense to me.

[Gregory Matthews]

Shane:

The news reports that of the $1,000,000.00 that was won in a medical malpractice lawsuit, only about $50,000.00 remains. The rest was spent on her care.

[Dr. Shane]

So what is your point? That still doesn't tell me why her husband wants her dead so bad.

Again, maybe it is right for her to die. I don't know. But it is kind of odd that her "husband" wants her to die so bad. I mean if that happened to my wife and she was beyond help but my in-laws wanted her kept alive and were willing to pay for the treatment I would divorce her (so I could remarry) and let them take care of her.

[bevin]

Quote:

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I know she has a rat for a husband

---

You don't know the man. You don't understand the circumstances. You don't know the family. You don't understand the medicine.

Yet you are making huge value-judgements.

Why is that?

Quote:

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Why does he want her to die so bad? That is what doesn't make sense to me.

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Why do you, as a Christian, feel it is so important to keep the body alive long after the mind has gone?

Maybe, just maybe, he loved her when she was really alive, and is trying to do the best for her mortal remains...

/Bevin

[Gregory Matthews]

Several isolated comments:

43 days to die: If all they did was to quit feeding, it could take that long. Typically both food and water are stoped. In such a case, death comes quite quickly.

I serve on a hospital ethics committee. We often deal wiht life and death issues in medical care. Speaking from that perspective there are several issues in this case that trouble me, and most people who work with medical ethics. The issues that trouble me lie on both sides of this case.

I am convinced that I can not trust the media for enough information to reach an ethical decision. Therefore, I do not have a firmly fixed opinion in this case.

The listing as to how one dies in with feeding and hydration stoped, given at the beginning of this thread, simply does NOT reflect hospice care as I experience in in the hospital where I work, to include outside agencies where some of our patients are sent.

[Dr. Shane]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

You don't know the man.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

You are right. I am basing my opinons of the news being reported. If it is not correct than my opinion is not either.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Why do you, as a Christian, feel it is so important to keep the body alive long after the mind has gone?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I don't. Can you find a post where I have stated such?

[Pockey]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

The listing as to how one dies in with feeding and hydration stoped, given at the beginning of this thread, simply does NOT reflect hospice care as I experience in in the hospital where I work, to include outside agencies where some of our patients are sent.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I totally agree with Gregory regarding hospice care.

[Pockey]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Trial judge David Kopelman did the research and found out that the following happens:

* Her mouth would dry out and become caked with or coated with thick material.

* Her lips would become parched or cracked or fissured.

* Her tongue would become swollen and might crack.

* Her eyes would sink back into their orbits...

etc.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Listing these conditions implies that they're just going to sit on their hands while she rots away. Those involved in hospice care do a tremendous job in taking care of the patient at the end of their lives, whether it be a morphine drip for pain and "air hunger", or benzodiazepines such as ativan for anxiey, or oral swabs as Jeannieb43 mentioned, etc etc.

[Neil D]

Quote:

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Oh, no prob. I realize that not everyone is being fair and accurate in their write-ups-but I have major problems with this method of forced death.

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good, Rosie. I am glad that we are on the same page of kindness and compassion. I will let Sid, Gregory and Namoi et al talk of thier experiences with hospice patients. But in this emotional subject will bring out all the kooks who are looking for thier 15 minutes of fame...[since I am already inFAMOUS, I have nothing to prove here ]

Quote:

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This is not Terri's final wish, it's her husbands.

Just my opinion, however.

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What I want to addres is the above comment.

I do think that this is Terri's final wish. The court was petitioned to be a surrogate decision maker for Terri. IOWs, they kinda became Terri and asked themselves if she was in this position, would she want 'prolonged life sustaining measures' to continue. Michael argued in the negitive, Terry's parents argued in the positive. The court has precidence where if there is doubt or the evidence is not clear, they are to error on maintaining the life. If you look at the timeline I posted, the court ruled to remove the feeding tube. There was enough evidence that the burdon of proof in civil cases ruled in favor of Micheal. Micheal not only brought his word in this, but also brought friends who also maintained and substanciated Michaels word and intent.

There has been some talk of Michael character as well. Some claiming that he's in it for the money....Well, he has been offered $1 million dollars to walk away and $19 million if he will reverse his decision [that person who offered was a bit mis-informed]. Micheal has turned both down. The man makes sure that his wife recieves good care, even to the point of "annoying the nurses" that proper care is done.

Based upon the courts records, I believe that he is honoring his wife's wishes.

Now he's no saint. After all, he has a girlfriend and 2 illegitament children from her. The man wants comfort and it has been a long 13 years without his wife. I will not fault him for that. I am not excusing the man, just not going to fault him.

[Rosie]

Neil, just curious, but have you gone over and read Terri's website?

I've looked at both sides, and come away with something not quite sitting right in this whole scenario regarding Terri's husband and his treatment of her.

In case you have not read the other side, here's the link to her website: http://www.terrisfight.net/

Something just does not sit right with me. We treat our animals with more compassion and respect in euthanizing them than we are giving this woman and to those who love her. We certainly don't starve our dogs to death when they get sick or old.

This really bothers me, and I don't think there's any justification for it whatsoever.

[Rosie]

Quote:

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Shane:

The news reports that of the $1,000,000.00 that was won in a medical malpractice lawsuit, only about $50,000.00 remains. The rest was spent on her care.

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Not from what I understand. She has had no rehabilitation, which, btw, is her right by Fla law. Much of this fund has been used to fight for her death in the courts.

From the link above:

MYTH: This is just a family battle over money.

FACT: In 1992, Terri was awarded nearly one million dollars by a malpractice jury and an out-of-court malpractice settlement which was designated for future medical expenses. Of these funds, less than $50,000 remains today. The financial records revealing how Terri’s medical fund money is managed are SEALED from inspection.

Court records, however, show that Judge Greer has approved the spending down of Terri’s medical fund on Schiavo’s attorney’s fees - though it was expressly awarded to Terri for her medical care. Schiavo’s primary attorney, George Felos, has received upwards of $400,000 dollars since Schiavo hired him. This same attorney, at the expense of Terri’s medical fund, publicly likened Terri to a “houseplant” and has used Terri’s case on national television to promote his newly published book.

~~~~

MYTH: Michael Schiavo volunteered to donate the balance of the inheritance to charity.

FACT: In October, 1998, Schiavo’s attorney proposed that, if Terri’s parents would agree to her death by starvation, Schiavo would donate his inheritance to charity. The proposal came after a court-appointed Guardian Ad Litem cited Schiavo’s conflict of interest since he stood to inherit the balance of Terri’s medical fund upon her death. This one and only offer stated “if the proposal is not fully accepted within 10 days, it shall automatically be withdrawn”. Naturally, Terri’s parents immediately rejected the offer.

~~~~

MYTH: Terri's Medical Trust fund has been used to care for her.

FACT: The following expenditures have been paid directly from Terri's Medical Trust fund, with the approval of Judge George Greer:

Summary of expenses paid from Terri’s 1.2 Million Dollar medical trust fund (jury awarded 1992)

NOTE: In his November 1993 Petition Schiavo alleges the 1993 guardianship asset balance as $761,507.50

Atty Gwyneth Stanley...$10,668.05

Atty Deborah Bushnell...$65,607.00

Atty Steve Nilson... $7,404.95

Atty Pacarek...$1,500.00

Atty Richard Pearse (GAL)...$4,511.95

Atty George Felos...$397,249.99

Other

1st Union/South Trust Bank

$55,459.85

Michael Schiavo

$10,929.95

Total $545,852.34

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Kind of gives a whole new perspective. A believable one.

[Neil D]

Yeah, I know.....

I am working off the court records...Just got thru looking over Terrisfight.com....

I am going to let the courts work thru it. I will side with the courts at this time until I have other information that shows the court records are biased.

One thing this woman has is a strong constitution....And it makes our nation hurt....

Quote:

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Kind of give a whole new perspective. A believable one.

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If you are fighting for someone life, and you believe that they are responsive, would you say anything to save thier life?

I come away with a yes vote......Which makes me wonder how much this is true and how much is dis-information and how much is misinformation....

[Rosie]

That's all we can do, let the courts decide. And pray for her and her family, that His will be done.

Yes, people are divided over Terri, and it is hurting us all.

[Neil D]

No one in the congressional majority has directly observed Ms. Schiavo or listened to the testimony of experts. On its face, Congress' decision seems to violate a basic division of our governing structure, which assigns certain duties to the state and others to the federal government. The state court, not Congress, is empowered to hear family and probate matters. Yet Congress has passed a law, applicable to one person, without having considered the factual evidence on which the courts' decisions were based.

For Congress to intrude so wantonly in a family dispute is astonishing. For Congress to substitute its judgment -- unvarnished by the evidence and facts of the case -- for that of Florida's courts is wrong.

[Gregory Matthews]

The post that began this thread seems to have been written by someone who has no understanding of the useage of morphine sulphate, and lorazepam in hospice care.

[Rosie]

"Terris exit protocal" was written by the caregivers, and is probably a bit more accurate. Yet we cannot possibly be certain what Terri feels, can we?

No major painkillers are involved in the exit protocal, but for a person who supposedly has no brain left, why would they be needed? Or is the morphine suggested to speed the process along?

Looking at this from a cold detatched distance, how can the process be quickened? It seems like we treat criminals with more dignity and humanity that is being given this person.

And even if she feels absolutely nothing at this point, the same probably cannot be said for her loved ones.

[Bravus]

But speeding the process along flips it over the line from letting nature take its course to active euthanasia, which is a completely different can of worms. In a lot of palliative care the morphine is for e.g. control of the pain from cancer. The morphine is not *used* to end life, but when death is inevitable the balance shifts from moderating the dose to ensure survival to moderating the dose to maximise relief from pain.

In this case there's no sensation of pain (as far as we can tell) and also nothing like a cancer actively causing pain. It's being talked about as a 'feeding tube', but as has been pointed out elsewhere, it's much more importantly a water tube for this purpose. Withdrawing water will lead to death in a couple of days at most.

It's a difficult and horrible situation for anyone to be in - no way to sugarcoat that. And there are really only difficult and horrible ways out... it comes down to choosing the least bad.

[bevin]

Quote:

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for a person who supposedly has no brain left, why would they be needed? Or is the morphine suggested to speed the process along?

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This misunderstanding is exactly why the parents, and many christian activists, are behaving the way they are.

Sensory nerves leave your fingers, go through clumping point (ganglia) up your spine to your brain. There are several distinct parts to the brain - the brain-stem, the cerebellum, and the cerebrum. Both the cerebellum and the cerebrum have a cortex. "do-this" nerves go the other way. Along the way they run side by side, and various connections are made between them.

"Thinking" as in understanding, making complex decisions, decisions to make deliberate movements, etc. takes place in the cerebrum.

Coordinating body movement, balance, etc. is largely done in the cerebellum.

The brain-stem does some reflexes, eye-movement, and other semi-automatic steps.

I think some reflexes are actually further down in the spinal cord and beyond.

It is just the most important part of Terri's brain that has gone. The "thinking" part. The reflexes, the eye tracking, and some other stuff is still operational. In short, she is not there, but a whole bunch of reflexes are.

Pain is caused by chemicals in the individual cells sending signals through the blood and through the nerves to other parts of the body. There is a lot more involved in people's responses to pain than just the "thinking".

Reflexes - cross-overs from pain-nerves to muscle-nerves - happen without the cerebrum getting involved at all.

The pain meds, if any, will not be for Terri's benefit. Terri is already dead. The pain meds are more for the benefit of the caregivers - so they won't have the trauma of watching her body react in various ways to the various chemicals that will cause reflexes and other automatic systems to do a wide range of things.

/Bevin

[cricket]

Not one of us knows the truth in this case. Only God. He alone knows of Terri's feelings and thoughts.

We should leave this decision up to God.

My own father died in a comatose state. I praise God that I had that time with him. While I cannot be certain until I am with God in heaven, I feel confident that God gave my father a little "extra" time during the coma. I feel confident that my father was given a chance to hear some of the things he needed to hear before God allowed him to die completely.

To read all of the medical descriptions offered here in this thread, I am sickened at the thought that we humans think we have the knowledge to make these decisions.

We should leave this decision to God, and the judgment of individual cases to Him as well.