The Washington Post, Adventists & Abortion

[karl]

I've been looking for evidence of current Adventist institutional abortion activity. It is remarkably lacking. Is there a good coverup going on, or have Adventists simply wised up irregardless of the GC's non-stand on the issue?

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged said: “Mark Price's "testimony" should be called something else. And yet this is the only "evidence" some wish to proffer to "prove" that the Church breaks the 6th commandment???”

I say: Have you read George Gainer article published by Spectrum back in 1989 entitled “The Wisdom of Solomon”? In it he details how the Adventist got into the abortion on demand business. When the State of Hawaii legalized abortion in 1970, half of our Castle Memorial Hospital staff—who were non-Adventists—demanded the right to offer elective abortions to their patients.

I want to emphasize that their demand was not about the so called “therapeutic abortions” resulting from rape and malformation, but abortion on demand. The hospital management panicked, and those doctors were granted the right to offer abortion on demand. The church debated the issue for many years and adopted the current policy which condemns abortion on demand, but said guidelines are not prescriptive but rather descriptive, and each Adventist hospital was granted the right to draft their own guidelines.

In 1989 Spectrum published the result of a survey conducted by Loma Linda University reporting that five of our Adventist hospitals were offering elective abortions. My question to you is: Was not this a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment and of the biblical injunction against the shedding of innocent blood? Don’t we Adventists have blood on our hands?

On February 21, 2011 Ted Wilson said the following in response to a question I publicly asked him in the city of Redlands: The church does not do abortions on demand, and if any are done, this is done in violation of church policy, and the number of abortions on demand in our medical institutions is so negligible that it is almost down to zero.

My question is: If the number of abortions in Adventist hospitals is almost zero, then when did this drastic change take place? Can someone provide me with the answer? I have written many letters to Adventist in high positions, but no one wants to respond to my query. There is absolute silence on this issue. If Adventist did in fact stop performing abortions, should not our leaders be proud to announce this drastic change to the entire world? Could it be our president is kept in the dark about what is taking place in our medical institutions?

[Nic Samojluk]

Mark cannot do anything to "help" anybody by lying about what really happened between himself and the GC

Do you have any hard evidence that Mark did lie about what happened? Is it right for you to hurl such an accusation against him unless you have some proof that what you are saying is based on facts? Suppose that you are wrong and Mark is innocent of the charge you have just made against him, wouldn’t this make you a liar?

[Dr. Shane]

you have many other beefs with the Church all of which you use as a platform to excuse your murderous campaign to smear innocent people who have nothing to do with abortions and would never in a million years condone them

Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people (Lev. 19:16)

He that goeth about as a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth with his lips. (Prov. 20:19)

Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth. As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife. (Prov. 26:20, 21)

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (Rev. 12:9, 10)

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged] you have many other beefs with the Church all of which you use as a platform to excuse your murderous campaign to smear innocent people who have nothing to do with abortions and would never in a million years condone them /quote]

Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people (Lev. 19:16)

He that goeth about as a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth with his lips. (Prov. 20:19)

Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth. As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife. (Prov. 26:20, 21)

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (Rev. 12:9, 10)

Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Mark cannot do anything to "help" anybody by lying about what really happened between himself and the GC

Do you have any hard evidence that Mark did lie about what happened? Is it right for you to hurl such an accusation against him unless you have some proof that what you are saying is based on facts? Suppose that you are wrong and Mark is innocent of the charge you have just made against him, wouldn’t this make you a liar?

You don't have any "hard evidence" that he is telling the truth. I rest my case. You are the one making the accusations; it would be nice if you could prove them for once. Until then, people who do want the truth can only think one thing about you.

[Nic Samojluk]

Overgaged said: “Wow, you need to practice what you preach!”

I say: Have you noticed the difference between what I have been doing and what Teresaq said? I have been documenting my allegations with facts, while she has not. Here is what she said:

Teresaq said: “UnChristlike at best, the methods of Satan at worst.”

I say: If Teresa thinks that what I am doing is “unChristlike” or that my methods are those of Satan, then she should provide the evidence in support of her allegation, which is what I did ask for. She still has time to provide such evidence.

Overgaged said: “How dare you talk the disgusting way you do about the Church, judging and condemning people who you THINK is doing something wrong; and yet, whom you cannot prove to be doing wrong.”

I say: I agree, suggesting that our church is guilty of violating the Sixth Commandment of the Lord and the biblical injunction against the shedding of innocent blood is very serious and disgusting. Unless, of course, the allegation is based on facts. I have provided the evidence in support of my contention not once, but many times. Evidently, you want to hear this one more time. Here is a sample of what I have been saying:

1. Castle Memorial Hospital started offering elective abortions back in 1970, following the legalization of abortion by the State of Hawaii. [George Gainer, “Abortion: History of Adventist Guidelines” Ministry (Aug. 1991): 11-17; George Gainer, “The Wisdom of Solomon” Spectrum 19/4 (May 1989): 38-46.

2. Washington Adventist Hospital performed 1494 therapeutic and elective abortions in a seven year period. [George Gainer, “The Wisdom of Solomon” Spectrum 19/4 (May 1989): 38-46.]

3. A 1988 survey revealed that five of our Adventist hospitals were offering elective abortion services to their patients. [Gerald R. Winslow, “Abortion Policies in Adventist Hospitals” Spectrum 19/4 (May 1989)]

Elective abortions are condemned by our own guidelines, yet the church has granted our hospitals carte blanche to draft their own guidelines, which some hospitals have done, and the evidence is there for everybody to see in black and white. This is why the 1988 survey conducted by the LLU ethics department revealed that five of our hospitals were offering abortions on demand to their patients.

Isn’t this a clear violation of what God and our own “Guidelines on Abortion” have condemned? So, where did I go wrong? And remember that when I said that we have blood on our hands, I included myself in said accusation, since I am a member of the Adventist Church. Perhaps if I had spoken more forcefully about the evils of abortion right from the beginning, things might have been different. It took me a decade and many readings of our guidelines to realize what we were doing.

Is warning the church about this evil “unChristlike”? Am I employing the methods of Satan? Read what Jesus said about those who had departed from the straight path of duty! Read what John the Baptist and the Old Testament prophets said about the need to repent.

[Dr. Shane]

Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

I think Nic may be a lost cause. Well, I guess no one is really a lost cause. Maybe Nic will see the error of his ways and repent for being a talebearer and accuser of the brethern.

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged said: “You are guilty of murder for falsely accusing your brethren.”

I say: Falsely? Doesn’t the Bible condemn the killing of innocent human beings? Doesn’t Scripture condemn the shedding of innocent blood? Didn’t our Adventist pioneers condemn abortion and label it is murder and a violation of the Sixth Commandment? Don’t our own “Guidelines on Abortion” condemn abortion on demand? Do I need to repeat what I stated in my previous posting? Did you read it? Which of my allegations is based on falsehood? I have been documenting my statements, have you? Here is what the Bible says about shedding the blood of innocent human beings:

Quote: “For he had filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the LORD was not willing to forgive.” [2 Kings 24:4]

Quote: “They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood.” [Psalm 106:38]

Quote: “Do this so that innocent blood will not be shed in your land, which the LORD your God is giving you as your inheritance, and so that you will not be guilty of bloodshed.” [Deut. 19:10]

Quote: “Moreover, Manasseh also shed so much innocent blood that he filled Jerusalem from end to end--besides the sin that he had caused Judah to commit, so that they did evil in the eyes of the LORD.” [2 Kings 21:16]

Quote: “Their feet rush into sin; they are swift to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are evil thoughts; ruin and destruction mark their ways.” [is. 59:7]

Quote: “You must purge from Israel the guilt of shedding innocent blood, so that it may go well with you.” [Deut.19:13]

And remember that there 37 additional passages in Scripture condemning the shedding of innocent blood! And here is what our own guidelines say about abortions on demand:

Guidelines on Abortion

"Abortions for reasons of birth control, gender selection, or convenience are not condoned by the Church."

"Church institutions should be provided with guidelines for developing their own institutional policies in harmony with this statement."

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/guidelines/main-guide1.html

As you can see, our guidelines do not condone abortions on demand; nevertheless, the church did not make these guidelines prescriptive, but rather descriptive of what the church wanted the hospitals to do. By acting in this extremely clever manner, the church found a way to both condemn and condone elective abortions in our hospitals.

Did our hospitals follow these suggestive guidelines? The evidence is compelling showing that five of our own hospitals were offering abortions on demand two decades ago.

Quote: “A 1988 survey revealed that five of our Adventist hospitals were offering elective abortion services to their patients.” [Gerald R. Winslow, “Abortion Policies in Adventist Hospitals” Spectrum 19/4 (May 1989)]

Like Pilate, we washed out hands of the blood of the innocents by stating that we do not condone elective abortions, but allowing our hospitals to offer them anyhow to their patients.

Overaged said: “You have still not proved a thing. All you can do is quote a newspaper article, your own website, or the "testimony" of Mark Price. All anecdotal; at best.

I say: You must have been blind to all the evidence I have been submitting from day one. Read what I have posted first, and then give me your opinion.

[Overaged]

I say: You must have been blind to all the evidence I have been submitting from day one. Read what I have posted first, and then give me your opinion.

The paltry blasphemy you call evidence is not; it is not even facts, let alone evidence. Quoting 23 year old surveys (without giving credible verifiable details), is something else we can add to your list of weapens against innocent people in the Church who have never had anything to do with abortions. Even IF you were to ever definitively prove any one individual as being guilty; you sin by making it out to be the whole church; or the official church teaching. Like I said, you parrot the great Romish machine which demands that the Church be the conscience for the individual. Our Church has made it clear in the guidelines and also throughout history that abortion is unacceptable; but they will not be our conscience and force us to do it. Instead, they prefer to help those who have gone through this ordeal either as giver or receiver, and you have simply twisted it all around and called this "genocide." Satan is having a field day with your "ministry."

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged said: “The newspaper has no better evidence of church wrong-doing here than you or Nic.”

I say: Nic had been providing you with solid evidence regarding the church’s involvement with abortion on demand, but it seems that all this slides of your back like water of a duck. Do I need to restate what I have posted many times already? I am afraid the rest of the readers are getting tired of reading this over and over again. Let me summarize some of the things I have said before:

1. The Bible condemns the killing of innocent human being and the shedding of their blood.

2. Our Adventist pioneers described abortion as murder and a violation of the Decalogue.

3. The Adventist “Guidelines on Abortion” does not condone abortions on demand.

4. Nevertheless, our church granted our hospitals the right to draft their own guidelines.

5. A survey done by the LLU revealed that five of our hospitals were offering elective abortions in violation of our church guidelines with impunity.

6. By granting our hospitals freedom to act in opposition to our own guidelines, the church in essence acted like Pilate, who said “I am innocent of this man’s blood.” Do you think that he was innocent of said murder?

As members of the “Remnant” church which keep God’s Commandment, we need to repent and disassociate our church from those hospitals which have been involved in the elective abortion business.

Last Monday our president, Ted Wilson told a large group of retirees that the church does not do elective abortions, and that if any are done, they are done in violation of church policy, and that abortions on demand in our hospitals are almost down to zero. Does anyone know when our church stopped doing elective abortions? Every time I write to our leaders asking for abortion information I get the silent treatment.

If it is a fact that our church medical institutions no longer performs abortions on demand, shouldn’t our leaders be proud to respond and to let the world know that we no longer perform elective abortions? If we made such an announcement, it might be prime news for the media. Doesn’t our silence speak volumes?

[Overaged]

Overaged said: “The newspaper has no better evidence of church wrong-doing here than you or Nic.”

I say: Nic had been providing you with solid evidence regarding the church’s involvement with abortion on demand,

You can't call what you are presenting "evidence." It is not "solid" or anything else credible. 23 year old surveys, 1 news article, and "testimonies" by people who are just like you - doing whatever it takes to distort church teachings and responses to this issue. I don't blame the church for not responding to you. You call the garbage on your own website "solid evidence," and that is ridiculous. You are your own reference! What kind of sense does that make? You are plainly expressing your other problems with the church through this issue; and this distorts any possible objective views that you could have here. And it eliminates the truth from your mind. Individuals in the church saying or doing something wrong does not equal the church doing something wrong. Stop doing the work of Satan on the internet, and try to learn what the true principles of "pro-life" are instead of the militant anti-social diatribe you are spewing.

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged said: “Like I said Nic; you have many other beefs with the Church all of which you use as a platform to excuse your murderous campaign to smear innocent people who have nothing to do with abortions and would never in a million years condone them”

I say: If you fail to see the connection between the current genocide of the unborn and what took place in Nazi Germany and Rwanda, then I am afraid nothing I can add will help you see the light. Here is an excrpt from our official Adventist Review:

Quote:

“Noting the sixtieth anniversary of the end of World War II, Seventh-day Adventist church leaders in Germany and Austria have released a declaration saying they “deeply regret” any participation in or support of Nazi activities during the war.

The church bodies “honestly confess” a failure “in following our Lord” by not protecting Jews, and others, from that era’s genocide, widely known as the Holocaust. Millions of people perished from war atrocities, including more than 6 million Jews who were exterminated in Nazi persecutions during the 12-year period of 1933 to 1945 …”

“The church says it also regrets “that in some of our publications . . . there were found articles glorifying Adolf Hitler and agreeing with the ideology of anti-Semitism in a way that is unbelievable from today’s [perspective].” . . .

Under various racial decrees, some Adventist congregations expelled members of Jewish heritage. One, Max-Israel Munk, was placed in two concentration camps by the Nazis and survived and returned to his church after the war. He said he did not wish to act toward his congregation in the way in which he had been treated, according to Daniel Heinz, a church archivist at Friedensau Adventist University who has studied Adventist activities during the National Socialist era. . . .

During World War I a portion of the German Adventist church had split off, opposing any military service. This led the National Socialists in 1936 to ban the so-called “Reform Movement” during their time in power. Brugger said concern over a Nazi closure of the main Adventist churches may have weighed on leaders in that era.

“I think during these times the official leaders of our church were afraid of losing the control over the church and losing the church because the political authorities had already . . . [confused] our church with the Reform movement,” he explained. “I think our leaders were afraid to lose the official recognition of our church, so therefore maybe they were not [as faithful] to our beliefs as would have been necessary.” . . .”

Source:http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=92

Overaged said: “you have and try to make it like the whole church supports murder”

I say: Evidently you like hyperbole. Regretfully, it paints a distorted picture of what I have been saying. The research I have conduced regarding this issue has shown that two thirds of those who participated in the discussion about abortion in the main Adventist publications between 1970 and 2006 exhibited a pro-life bent, while only one third were defending abortion. I have stated this more than once. Of course, you can’t remember everything I have written, especially since you have been focusing your attention on how to discredit my work.

Overaged said: “You parrot the Romish machine which demands surrender of the conscience to the Church.”

I say: Nonsense! I have always endeavored to surrender my views to a “thus said the Lord.” What does the Bible say about killing and shedding the blood of innocent human beings? Does the Bible provide a list of exceptional circumstances under which it is morally acceptable to kill innocent human beings?

Overaged said: “and if you think you are so smart by finding a little snippet that some leader or another said, and making it out like the Church says it; then you are deliberately lying”

I say: Can you document what you are accusing me off? If I have lied, I would appreciate if you can give me the specific evidence, so that I have a chance of correcting myself. If you do this, you will be doing God’s work.

[Dr. Shane]

Just wondering, Nic. Do you volunteer at pregnancy crisis centers or other pro-life organizations? Do you financial support pro-life organizations? I am just wondering if you do more than just give heated, inflammatory opinions about abortion.

[Stan]

Nic...

Tell me again, how the Church failed in Rwanda?

I do agree there was some Adventist who support Hitler and the invasion into Poland and other atrocities.

You failed to mention that there were some Adventist who support GWB in the invasion of Iraq and other atrocities.

[Dr. Shane]

You failed to mention that there were some Adventist who support GWB in the invasion of Iraq and other atrocities.

I supported GWB and the US Congress in the invasion of Iraq but that was as an individual. I am not aware that the organized Adventist church in any official capacity, at any level endorsed the invasion. Did I miss something there? In contrast, the organized Adventist church in Germany did officially support Hitler.

[Nic Samojluk]

How did the Church fail in Rwanda?

Read the following article written by an Adventist years ago and recently republishd by Spectrum. Notice that Pastor Elizaphan Ntakirutimana, a Hutu was then the president of the Seventh-day Adventist church in the Kibuye region of Rwanda.

No Sanctuary at Mugonero

Adventist Peace Fellowship Essay #1 - May 2004

by Ronald Osborn

"According to journalists and human rights investigators, Pastor Elizaphan Ntakirutimana, a Hutu and then president of the Seventh-day Adventist church in the Kibuye region, urged Tutsi members of his congregation, as well as others, to take shelter in the Mugonero Adventist compound. Many, too, came without prompting from the surrounding bush, avoiding countless militia checkpoints in a harrowing flight for refuge on the Adventist property.

Survivors, however, say that any hope of sanctuary at Mugonero soon vanished. Water lines were first severed. Then all roads into the mission were cordoned off by Hutu police. On April 15, as heavily armed Hutu bands and members of the Presidential Guard circled the compound in pick-up trucks, a group of seven Tutsi Seventh-day Adventist pastors signed the following letter to Pastor Ntakirutimana, who was seen riding about the periphery of the mission together with the roving militiamen.

Journalist Philip Gourevitch would later use a portion of their letter as the title to his award-winning report from the killing fields:The answer to this plea came the next day, Sabbath morning, at approximately 9 oclock am. The attackers advanced toward the church from all sides chanting Eliminate the Tutsis! They worked methodically with guns and machetes, moving from church to school to hospital.

The victims, weak from food and water deprivation, mounted a feeble defense with bricks and stones. But they were overcome with little effort. The killers, keen to spare bullets, only paused when the physical exertion of chopping and spearing demanded rest. By evening, mop-up operations had begun: tear gas was fired to cause any living Tutsis among the corpses to cry out. The attackers then made sure these joined the rest.

Our dear leader, Pastor Elizaphan Ntakirutimana, How are you! We wish to be strong in all these problems we are now facing. We wish to inform you that we have heard that tomorrow we will be killed with our families. We therefore request you to intervene on our behalf and talk with the Mayor. We believe that, with the help of God who entrusted you the leadership of this flock, which is going to be destroyed, your intervention will be highly appreciated, the same as the Jews were saved by Esther. We give honor to you.[ii]

In the end, Mugonero was worst single massacre in the entire 1994 genocide. In a single day almost all of the 3,000 Tutsis who had gathered at the Adventist mission were slain, some 2,000 inside the Seventh-day Adventist church building itself. Several months after the attack, in an interview with the Adventist Review, J. J. Nortey, then president of the African-Indian Ocean Division said that perhaps as many as 99 percent of all Adventist workers in the Mugonero regionamong them pastors, hospital personnel and mission employeeswere killed. In total, an estimated 10,000 Seventh-day Adventists died in Rwanda in barely three months.[iii] In perspective, as many Adventists died in Rwanda as people died in the entire 1998-99 conflict in Kosovo.

Even more alarming in the aftermath of the genocide, however, is the fact that Adventists were not only among the victims. According to Nortey, in regions with large numbers of Seventh-day Adventists the killings were just as bad as in the rest of the country. [T]here were church-going people seen in the mobs, cheeringthose who did the killings.[iv] Today jails in Rwanda hold large numbers of Adventists who have been implicated in the genocide.

On February 19, 2003, Pastor Ntakirutimana was sentenced by the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda to 10 years in prison for complicity in crimes against humanity. The Tribunal found that Pastor Ntakirutimana, together with his son Gerard, aided and abetted Hutu killers at Mugonero, going so far as to order the removal of church roofing so that Tutsis would have nowhere to hide.

http://www.adventistpeace.org/templates/System/details.asp?id=39491&PID=465481

Note: This article, written by an Adventist author, was recently reprinted by Spectrum. Some have argued that, in spite of the Adventist participation in the killing, we need to bear in mind that they did not do any killing during the sacred hours of the Sabbath.

[Stan]

That was one retired Pastor, and as I said earlier, those who knew him will tell you it was unjust.

Repeat that was one Retired Pastor, ONE RETIRED PASTOR.

Tell how the Church failed?

[Stan]

There were significant amount of Heros in Rwanda, not among the least was Paul from the Movie Hotel Rwanda, and several others. I met some of them in 1994.

[Dr. Shane]

That was one retired Pastor, and as I said earlier, those who knew him will tell you it was unjust.

Are you saying Pastor Ntakirutimana was a retired pastor? The story says he was the church president at the time. If he was the church president and he helped in the slaughter, I would have to agree that the organized church in that region was guilty.

[Nic Samojluk]

I've been looking for evidence of current Adventist institutional abortion activity. It is remarkably lacking. Is there a good coverup going on, or have Adventists simply wised up irregardless of the GC's non-stand on the issue?

All my efforts to confirm the alleged fact that Adventist hospitals no longer perform abortions on demand have failed so far. Every time I ask for information, I get the silent treatment. If Adventists no longer do elective abortions, wouldn’t hospital managers be willing and proud to respond and confirm that they no longer do abortions on demand?

[Woody]

I learned long ago that what the conf. president does ... is not necessarily representitive of my church.

[Nic Samojluk]

You are the one making the accusations; it would be nice if you could prove them for once. Until then, people who do want the truth can only think one thing about you.

Please identify the false accusation I am guilty of! I have been documenting everyhing I have been saying. Please, do the same. Provide the evidence that I have been making false accusations! This is not the first time I am asking this! Are you planning to grant this request of mine?

[Nic Samojluk]

I think Nic may be a lost cause. Well, I guess no one is really a lost cause. Maybe Nic will see the error of his ways and repent for being a talebearer and accuser of the brethern.

Talk is cheap! Provide the evidence that I have been making false accusations! Can you document your claim with facts? I have been piling facts after facts. Which of those facts are false?

Please, provide the text within its proper context. I am eager to see where I have erred. This is your Christian duty. Isn’t it? I have little respect for people who shoot first and then ask questions!If you can't do this, then who is the talebearer?

[Dr. Shane]

I learned long ago that what the conf. president does ... is not necessarily representative of my church.

*We* may know that to be true but to the outside world is representative of our church. To them, *we* need to take responsibility for what our leaders are doing. That is a good reason we need to think long and hard before giving someone such a position.