Christianity the reason the West is so prosperous?The Chinese think so

[lazarus]

I don't think slavery or rape has anything to do with it. Many cultures that have engaged in both slavery and rape have never become prosperous. In the United States, the north and west (which had always banned slavery) has been more prosperous than the southeast where slavery was allowed.

The thread is about prosperity and Christianity not so much about the US and prosperity. My contention is that western "Christianity" did much the same that other cultures and empires have done to make it prosperous.

[lazarus]

Bravus, I read (more accurately, listened to) "the Ascent of Money" about a month ago. I'm trying to get my head around the financial mess we are in. It gives a fantastic overview of how the current financial system developed.

I guess my criticism of Western prosperity is harsh but comes as a result of reading books like Ferguson's that gives a window on how things really are. There are certain things they skip over in A'level history class in the UK.

[Sonny]

Sonny, according to Rom.13 the government of the United States belongs to "the powers that be" which are "appointed by God". Rom.13:1. "[color:#330033]Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God....

[Sonny]

Both the North and the South had slaves. When the rich man covets more profit he turns to slavery. Of course that's hard to do because of the folks at CNN....Instead our leaders come up with jokes like "free trade", which really means free to exploit.

[Sonny]

private property

Oxymoron. It's yours as long as you pay rent, in taxes. Really then, it's not yours cause they can take it if you don't pay.

[doug yowell]

The book of Revelation doesn't spend much time on the passing phases of 20th century political movements but Apostate Christianity is shown to be the great threat to freedom in the world. Would you disagree?

I absolutely disagree. It simply shows that the apostate Christian world is the leader of the rest of the willing world that will pose a threat to the true believers in the true God. In our particular case apostate Christianity poses no threat to freedoms in the rest of the world. Apostate Christianity is,in fact, joined more closely to the world system than vice-versa. If you can name a Christian government that currently imposes it's will upon other systems of government or religions than feel free to demonstrate it. It is not the Christianity of the U.S. that today is threatening the world's peace (at least not in the physical sense).

[Dr. Shane]

My contention is that western "Christianity" did much the same that other cultures and empires have done to make it prosperous.

The prosperity boom really didn't happen until after WW2. Slavery had been completely banned by that time. Well, at least in the western world. There still are countries that practice slavery and it isn't leading them to prosperity.

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Shane

private property

Oxymoron. It's yours as long as you pay rent, in taxes.

Protection of private property rights isn't limited to land. Intellectual property must also be protected. How many inventions would have Thomas Edison come up with if everything would have went to the king?

[lazarus]

I absolutely disagree. It simply shows that the apostate Christian world is the leader of the rest of the willing world that will pose a threat to the true believers in the true God. In our particular case apostate Christianity poses no threat to freedoms in the rest of the world.

Who is our? Do you mean the USA? If you do, many in the rest of the world would disagree.

Quote:

Apostate Christianity is,in fact, joined more closely to the world system than vice-versa.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

I absolutely disagree. It simply shows that the apostate Christian world is the leader of the rest of the willing world that will pose a threat to the true believers in the true God. In our particular case apostate Christianity poses no threat to freedoms in the rest of the world.

Who is our? Do you mean the USA? If you do, many in the rest of the world would disagree.

.

Sorry, I should have been more concise. The 'our' should have read "in the case of today's world".

[doug yowell]

Apostate Christianity is,in fact, joined more closely to the world system than vice-versa. I consider contemporary apostate Christianity to apply to the church's slide into almost complete secularism rather than the traditional (and unquestioned) SDA application of "apostate" as referring mainly to the rejection of the Sabbath/state-of-the-dead/ect... Biblical teachings. I wasn't too clear on that.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

I absolutely disagree. It simply shows that the apostate Christian world is the leader of the rest of the willing world that will pose a threat to the true believers in the true God. In our particular case apostate Christianity poses no threat to freedoms in the rest of the world.

Who is our? Do you mean the USA? If you do, many in the rest of the world would disagree.

I understand how many in the world think. They are simply wrong if they are afraid of the USA's political or military threats to imperialize their world.This is a belief that was introduced by communists after WWII and parroted by those who hate and fear the influence of America. Unlike communism and other forms of totalitarianism, America's power to influence the world does not lie in it's ability or willingness to militarily force others to obey it's commands.Instead it has actually,by virtue of it's constitutional mandate,intentionally attempted to restrain itself from going down the path of imperialism. The blessings and prosperity of the U.S. does not spring from it's being like the rest of the world but rather from it's being different from the rest of the world. What other world super power in history has not only given back the territories it conquered but even gave them endless support enabling them to be free and prosper?

[doug yowell]

[The USA. I'm not sure if you accept the SDA perspective on Rev 13:11. The US is the world's only super power. What does that mean? It has the capacity, which it has demonstrated, to project its power across the world. It has a lamb-like (gentle) appearance but speaks like a dragon. The USA most definitely imposes its will.

Read Confessions of an Economic Hitman, John Perkins

Many SDA's who accept the EGW view of the U.S. fail to incorporate all of the ingredients that she puts into the recipe. The SDA perspective then becomes disjointed and out of touch with the world in which it exists.The original perspective didn't portray the U.S. as a secularized,atheistic espousing, military superpower that tried to force the world to join it's one world government. Daniel 2 demonstrates that the nature of the political picture will never allow one country to ever again dominate the world in a secular manner.This must also apply to the USA.That the US cannot impose it's will at will should be self evident when one looks at the world today. Many give the USA way too much credit for being able to force others to do what the USA wants.The Israeli/Arab conflict is only one good example.There are ten thousand more.Power is not to be confused with influence.Projecting one's influence across the globe does not necessarily translate into a constraining power but it can coerce those who want the benefits of whatever it's representing.That's the nature of American power today.

[fccool]

Quote:

Unlike communism and other forms of totalitarianism, America's power to influence the world does not lie in it's ability or willingness to militarily force others to obey it's commands.

I think you are looking at it the wrong way.

1) 70% of the world's transactions are made using US dollars.

2) US was intrusted with guarding the world currency for stability and then it used it to it's own advantage by essentially becoming world's banker.

3) There's nothing "Christian" about getting rich by speculative manipulation of paper at the expense of poverty.

Communism needs tight grip to enforce it's ideology. Economic collonialism has no need to. All it has to do is to manipulate existing legal system of the host for its own advantage. It does so by.

I'm tired of explaining the complexity of how it all works, but in short it works like any drug dealer would. The first couple "hits" are free. Once the victim is hooked, it can then demand virtually anything feeding on victim's desperation. Essentially the idea is to cut off victims autonomy, and instill the idea of dependence on some substance.

- 70% of the world's financial ops are made using USD.

We are talking about 5% of word's population enjoying the prime origin of %70 of the GLOBAL share in currency.

Did it come about because US makes 70% of global products? Or perhaps it came about because US mines 70% of natural resources? Perhaps it came about as a result of %70 of US share of global labor?

No.

It came about because US was entrusted with financial security of the world after WWII, and it kept on using it to it's own advantage by means of issuing the debt and the monetizing it through issuing new currency. It's really that simple. Most of the people don't have a solid grasp on the idea, because they are mislead on how it all works. They only see the end result, and then attribute it to something else.

How the misleading works.

a) By comparing the output through index evaluation of a false standard.

Let's say we'll compare two fictitious people. Person A and person B.

Person A works his butt of and saves his entire life to get a car, a house, because he does not have much means of borrowing due to a certain economic restrictions. Likewise, he does not gamble in search for quick buck. He enjoys a steady increase in savings over his lifetime to enjoy the fruits of his labor later in life.

Person B works just as much, but has a substantial means of borrowing, and likes to gamble quite a bit for the sake of turning a quick buck.

Now, imagine a county filled with people A, and country filled with people B.

If we evaluate them strictly based on GDP-based valuation... people B will be waaaaaaaay ahead. GDP counts borrowing as income. It counts gambling profits by mere manipulation of paper as "income". It counts increase in productivity as "income". It counts the rendering of ANY services as "products".

Thus, if we use GDP to evaluate "wealth" it's merely a facade. A person who just bought a new computer by means of borrowing a credit amount, should not mean "increase in wealth". There's no net increase, outside of accounting trick.

If I borrow money from you, and then use that money to build a computer... you own the computer indirectly. It's as though you bought the computer. But, in accounting terms we essentially have a record of both increase in your receivables and the sale of the computer.

Now, where does the money comes from? It's sort of becomes a shell game.

1) You borrow the money from the bank.

2) Bank "borrows the money from the consumer"

3) Bank tells the consumer that the money is available to them any time they want to have it withdrawn.

4) If there's not enough money to pay everyone back, the bank borrows it from the Fed.

5) Fed just makes it by means of digital issuing.... because it can.

This makes the idea of comparative global GDP highly misleading and falsified. GDP does not look at the net ledgers. It only considers the gross.

US IS BANKRUPT via it's own currency manipulation at the expense of it's own people... for purpose of making few immensely rich.

Do you think God and Christian ideals reflect in such scheme?

[Dr. Shane]

I think you make some valid points fccool. I think your summery also indicates what I stated earlier about the prosperity boom coming after WW2. Before WW2 the US was not nearly as prosperous. The middle class was not as large. Individual home ownership wasn't as widespread. The average size of homes was smaller. Many homes didn't have indoor plumbing or electrical. The US didn't have the interstate highway infrastructure. The electrical and telephone grid was much smaller. A lot fewer people went to college. The US was blessed and prosperous but certainly not to the same degree that it has become since the end of that war.

This latest financial disaster was a result of a portion of our house of cards falling down. It may be a precursor of what is to come and should serve as a warning for everyone to get out of debt. Building up a large savings may be a waste because the currency may be worthless at a future date. I think it wise to be debt free and have 3 to 6 months' living expenses saved up but beyond that money should be given to charity and used to help others. Investing is well and good but perhaps the only "solid" investment is real estate and this latest crisis even brings that into question.

[doug yowell]

All this proves nothing about the state of the U.S. in prophetic history.It does,however, illustrate that the capitalistic system is based on the rights of others to accept or reject it's "deceptive" promotions. The Jewish economy throughout their history was based upon this same model. The system itself is not opposed to the principles of heaven. Systems that strive to achieve egalitarian goals must force others to accept their goals and methods, these are by nature opposed to what God wants from humans.You are also ignoring the enormous gifts that the US has "freely" given to the world. Most of these have very little return. South Korea is a good example. American's die to keep them free, paying in American blood and American money which enables South Korea to boom economically and become an economic competitor with America.West Germany,Japan,and others are continuing beneficiaries.And this is not to mention the trillions of dollars spent on trying to provide for a problem free life for those here in America and around the globe. No free person,or world country is economically enslaved or impoverished by America's monetary policies. Each is free to choose how they will live. I do not consider the U.S. the world's #1 enemy in the economic and political field.

[doug yowell]

I think you are looking at it the wrong way.

2) US was intrusted with guarding the world currency for stability and then it used it to it's own advantage by essentially becoming world's banker.

3) There's nothing "Christian" about getting rich by speculative manipulation of paper at the expense of poverty.

2) What's immoral about that? Should we have let the Russians protect the world's economies?

3) This is true but does not apply to the results of the US use of it's financial resources. So what's the real problem?

[MariaS]

Interesting indeed,

The Chinese are one of the most successful group of People in Asia..the only problem though..they are too proud with their language that make them think english is not a must to learn to many of them..therefore, once they are out from their community, they are lost just like to most French men who only speak French all their lives.

To the Chinese mentality..MONEY is SUPREME IMPORTANT..many of them stive for money rather than a good EDUCATION.

I have lots of Chinese friends..and I got the first hands experience the truth with the above..they testify the same too.

Well, back to the topic, Asian in general look at the Westerner as the most educated and also knowledgable nation..I believe that money alone can not measure the success of a nation. It inclusive of the education system, the land system and many more. Malaysia for example has long way to go to reach half of what USA and some of European countries has accomplished long ago..however, proudly to say we are making progress slowly but surely everyday.

[doug yowell]

Well, back to the topic, Asian in general look at the Westerner as the most educated and also knowledgable ...

No wonder all the (Mal)Asian chicks are after Richard!!

[Sonny]

The system itself is not opposed to the principles of heaven.

Sure it is....Satan has developed a kingdom - the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world” - that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Within these world systems man is always trying to ascend, whether it be socially, politically, academically, materially, economically, or even religiously.

At the root of these world systems you have competition. The whole premise of competition is to defeat your opponent. The very nature of competition is not at all that of peace or love for your neighbor; it is one-upmanship, to outdo the other in order to be a "victor".

How did Ellen White view our world system?

Men and women professing to be waiting and loving the appearing of their Lord are shut up to self. The noble, the godlike, they have parted with. The love of the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life, have so fastened upon them that they are blinded. They are corrupted by the world and discern it not.

What is the trend of the education given? To what motive is appeal most often made? To self-seeking. Much of the education given is a perversion of the name. In true education the selfish ambition, the greed for power, the disregard for the rights and needs of humanity, that are the curse of our world, find a counterinfluence.

Here are other quotes that run contrary to our world systems:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth."

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love, will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them."

"There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ. All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them."

So "no" - all world systems are the invention of its god, Satan - the lord of this world. Notice the bold lettering:

Luke 4:5 And he led Him (Jesus) up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, "I will give You all this domain and its glory ; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

Again, you are wrong. All the systems in the world are under Satan's principle of "I". That's what competition is by definition.

I'll leave you with this:

1 John 2:5 Do not love the world (the principle of the world) or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world--

the lust of the flesh (self-seeking, to be # 1)

the lust of the eyes, (coveting - what we see we want)

and the pride of life- (anything that you boast in)

is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it....

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

The system itself is not opposed to the principles of heaven.

Sure it is....Satan has developed a kingdom - the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world” -

So you're saying that God rescued the Israelites from slavery,took them out of Egypt, gathered them around Mt. Sinai. gave them the 10 Commandments, and then guided them into accepting a Satanic form of economic guidelines to live by once they entered the promised land? Where does that come from? The system itself will be very instumental in whether prosperity can be achieved. If you start off with a system that has anti-prosperity written into it that system will most likely live up to it's foundational expectations. Systems that encourage rewarding individual affort aren't anti-Christian.Capitalism is only one of the factors involved in America's great prosperity. The Chinese,like de Tocqueville in the 1800's,seem to have stumbled onto one of the other important ingredients. Something that most Americans, including a great many SDA's,seemed to have misplaced.

[Sonny]

So you're saying that God rescued the Israelites ....and then guided them into accepting a Satanic form of economic guidelines to live by once they entered the promised land?

Give me those guidelines.....Quote them.

[Sonny]

Systems that encourage rewarding individual affort aren't anti-Christian.

Competition is sin. It's the reason we have poverty. In competition everyone is trying to outdo the other person. It's based on a very self-centered, self-seeking principle. Those who have more education...more access to influence folks, rise to the top. This is why Christ said, "you will always have the poor with you".

We can see a glimpse of heaven in the early church:

Acts 4:32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. 33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

This is how it will be in heaven. Instead of living for yourself you will deny self. Of course in heaven you won't have that bent to self (your sinful nature), so it won't even be an issue. Instead of competing against others you'll live for others. You will live to serve and they will live for you.

Ellen White states this better than me:

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

[phkrause]

So you're saying that God rescued the Israelites from slavery,took them out of Egypt, gathered them around Mt. Sinai. gave them the 10 Commandments, and then guided them into accepting a Satanic form of economic guidelines to live by once they entered the promised land? Where does that come from? The system itself will be very instumental in whether prosperity can be achieved. If you start off with a system that has anti-prosperity written into it that system will most likely live up to it's foundational expectations. Systems that encourage rewarding individual affort aren't anti-Christian.Capitalism is only one of the factors involved in America's great prosperity. The Chinese,like de Tocqueville in the 1800's,seem to have stumbled onto one of the other important ingredients. Something that most Americans, including a great many SDA's,seemed to have misplaced.

God led them into a Jubilee System, far from a capitalistic system we have here in the US. When people couldn't pay they than went into a kind of slavery to who they owed the money or whatever to. Than depending where they were in that JY they were released from whatever they owed, can you imagine that in our Capitalistic system?? Someone actually letting you not have to pay. This is how people got there homes and lives back. There were no rich, rich or poor, poor. Here's a link: http://judaism.about.com/od/prayersworshiprituals/f/jubilee.htm

[phkrause]

and here's another one: http://www.biblestudy.org/godsrest/what-is-the-jubilee-year.html I think this really explains the two systems together. Jubilee and Sabbatical.