The last message

[torahvideos]

http://www.laverdadeterna.com/english/index.html

[Dr. Rich]

Wasn't it Waggonare who led the first adventists astray with his false teaching about grace?

[John317]

Dr. Waggoner didn't get off on the wrong track about God's grace, but he did get off in regards to Dr. Kellogg's idea on the nature of the Godhead. He eventually adopted a spiritualized view, teaching that when we taste or smell food, we are tasting and smelling God.

But those later false teachings don't mean his earlier writings were false. I would agree with Waggoner's teachings up to about 1895.

Have you studied his books? The ones written before 1888 and a few years after that are really wonderful, except for his view that Christ came into existence after the Father. However, Waggoner was right in teaching that Christ is equal with the Father.

[Dr. Rich]

John, I doubt if Waggoner was being led by the Holy Spirit. Clearly even Uriah Smith and Joseph Bates would have agreed with me. And yes, I have read many for my own research on the history, but I can't remember all that I have read. Years ago when I had more time Loma Linda University was a great place to do research.

[John317]

I agree with most of what is on that site, but I am sure you are opposed to the current beliefs of the SDA Church, i.e., especially in regard to the Trinity.

I am glad to see that your site refers to Jesus Christ as "God the Son."

I agree that God is One, but I believe that includes 3 persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Ellen White says (and this is supported by Scripture) that the Father and Christ are one in " purpose,mind, and character, but not in person." (8 T 269; See also RH, June 1, 1905)

Why don't the list of doctrines refer to the Holy Spirit?

Who do you believe the Bible teaches the Holy Spirit is?

Do you believe the eternal Godhead consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

Ellen White teaches that Christ is "the eternal, self-existent Son of God." And of course the Bible is very clear that "what God is, the Word is," and that Christ is "the perfect copy of God's person, or nature." John 1: 1; Hebrews 1: 3. She also says that Christ did not derive His life from anyone else. Ev. 614-617.

Are you in agreement with the statements found on those pages?

I believe that I am in far more agreement with you than disagreement. :-)

Quote:

1- God the Father

That there is only one God, Father of all, from whom comes all things (1 Co. 8:6): a personal God, a Spiritual Being; The Creator, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He is eternal without beginning, infinite in love, wisdom, justice, truth and mercy.

2 - God the Son, our Lord Jesus Christ

That there is one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God the Father, begotten [born], not created. He was born in the days from eternity, in the same image of the Father’s person and His substance. The Son is the same as God in nature and attributes, for He is the literal Son of God, the Father (Jn. 1:1-3). The Father established Him heir of everything; therefore he inherited God's Name (Heb. 1:8) “Even more, of the Son, He says, Thy throne, O God...”

Creator: "Because in Him all things were created, all which exist in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible; be thrones, or domains, or principalities, or authorities; everything was created by means of Him and for Him. And He is before all the things, and all things in Him subsist [exist]” (Col. 1:16-17; Jn. 1:1-3).

Redeemer: Jesus took on the nature of Adam's seed "post-sin" after four thousand years of sin. He made Himself “flesh of sin”. (Jn. 1:14; Php. 2:7,8; Ro. 1:3; Heb. 2:14; 1 Co. 15:50; Heb. 2:16-18; 2 Co. 5:21; Ga. 4:4,5; Heb. 4:15,16; Heb. 5:7-10). He has carried out the purification of our sins, by means of Himself (Heb. 1:3). He dwelled among men, full of grace and truth; He lived the perfect example to be our substitute. He died as our sacrifice, and resurrected for our justification. He ascended to the high to be our only mediator in the Celestial Sanctuary, whereby offering His own blood, He atones for our sins.

[Dr. Rich]

John, did you say that EGW wrote this: "Ellen White teaches that Christ is "the eternal, self-existent Son of God." And of course the Bible is very clear that "what God is, the Word is," and that Christ is "the perfect copy of the God's person, or nature." John 1: 1; Hebrews 1: 3. She also says that Christ did not derive His life from anyone else. Ev. 614-617.

Is not this different than what Paul wrote in Romans 1:3,4 and 6:4 and Gal. 1:1?

[John317]

John, I doubt if Waggoner was being led by the Holy Spirit. Clearly even Uriah Smith and Joseph Bates would have agreed with me.

I believe E.J. Waggoner is largely supported by the Bible, especially in what he wrote between about 1885 and 1895. I know that you disagree with that conclusion, though, because there is much in the Bible that you reject outright. So you and I are coming at this from almost opposite directions, or at least with different beliefs. So of course our conclusions are going to be different.

I don't believe that the Holy Spirit will lead anyone to disagree with the Scriptures, which were inspired, or God-breathed, by the Holy Spirit Himself. However, the Holy Spirit does lead people to understand some of the Scriptures in a way that is different from other people's views. But I don't believe the Holy Spirit leads anyone to reject the Bible or any part of the Bible.

It's possible that Joseph Bates would have disagreed with what Dr. E.J. Waggoner wrote-- and we know for sure that Uriah Smith did-- but that is not really important, is it? The fact is that all three men were wrong sometimes. None of them would tell you that you should agree with them on everything. Their appeal would be to study the Bible and compare their beliefs, and your own beliefs, with those of the Bible.

I have great respect for all three men, as well as for E. J. Waggoner's father, J.H. Waggoner, but they were all men who made mistakes and had some wrong ideas. All of them changed their views, especially E.J. Waggoner and Uriah Smith. Smith at one time (1865-1875) believed that Christ was "the first created being," and he never did change his view to see that Christ has always existed and is equal in every sense with the Father. (E.J. Waggoner, by contrast, saw that Christ is equal with the Father.) Smith also taught, for a while at least, that the Godhead had "evolved." These are clearly wrong ideas.

The main point here, though, is that there were many disagreements beween the early SDAs because the doctrine of the Godhead, or the Trinity, was not among the main teachings of the church. As a church, we were far more united on the main, "distinctive" doctrines, such as the Second Coming, the Sabbath, the state of the dead, the heavenly sanctuary, the Three Angels Messages, health reform, etc. Perfect agreement on the doctrine of the Godhead was not seen as essential, but it generally was viewed in the 1800s as a side issue as long as one agreed that God was a personal God and that Christ was the Son of God and a personal Savior who is our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary.

[John317]

John, did you say that EGW wrote this: "Ellen White teaches that Christ is "the eternal, self-existent Son of God." And of course the Bible is very clear that "what God is, the Word is," and that Christ is "the perfect copy of the God's person, or nature." John 1: 1; Hebrews 1: 3. She also says that Christ did not derive His life from anyone else. Ev. 614-617.

Is not this different than what Paul wrote in Romans 1:3,4 and 6:4 and Gal. 1:1?

Yes, I did surely write that, but, no, that is not different from what Saint Paul wrote. You might understand Paul to have written something different, but Paul was consistent in his beliefs concerning who Christ is.

For instance, Paul called Christ, "our great God and Savior." Titus 2: 13. Elsewhere, in Romans 9: 5, he says that "Christ is God over all all, blessed forever."

Romans 9:5

To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Titus 2:13

waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

NOTE: Christ is both our great God and our Savior. It is referring to a single person.

Paul also wrote 1 Tim. 3: 16, the majority of manuscripts of which read:

1 Tim. 3:16

Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,

vindicated by the Spirit,

seen by angels,

proclaimed among the nations,

believed on in the world,

taken up in glory.

And:

Philip. 2:5-6

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, [6] who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

NOTE: Here Paul said that in heaven Christ was God. "Form of" is translated from a word [morphe] which refers to the underlying reality of something.

In Col. 1: 17 and 2: 9, Paul makes it very clear that Christ has always been in the fullness of the Godhead and has always been upholding the whole universe. This agrees with Heb. 1: 4.

Romans 1: 3,4 is simply saying that the man Christ Jesus was descended from David, and that Christ was seen and acknowledged or proved to be the Son of God by His resurrection.

Galatians 1: 1--

Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—

How does Galatians 1: 1 contradict what Ellen White has said in your quote above?

Remember that Jesus Christ has two natures-- He is both God and man. As a man, Christ was totally dependent on His Father, just as we are.

[LifeHiscost]

John, did you say that EGW wrote this: "Ellen White teaches that Christ is "the eternal, self-existent Son of God." And of course the Bible is very clear that "what God is, the Word is," and that Christ is "the perfect copy of the God's person, or nature." John 1: 1; Hebrews 1: 3. She also says that Christ did not derive His life from anyone else. Ev. 614-617.

Is not this different than what Paul wrote in Romans 1:3,4 and 6:4 and Gal. 1:1?

The only time in the Word where there was ever a separation of One of the God head, that One died.

Wherever the Father is, there is the Son. Wherever the Son is, there is the Holy Spirit. Wherever the Holy Spirit is, there is Jesus. Wherever the Body of Christ is, there is Jesus. Trying to explain the one God is like trying to explain knowledge we were never meant to understand after the fall. The how of the God head is given on a "need to know basis".

God blesses!

[Guest]

http://www.laverdadeterna.com/english/index.html

I watched most of the video. I thought it was good.

http://www.ministeriolve.org/videossee/hq/thelastmessage.html

[hch]

http://www.laverdadeterna.com/english/index.html

Video is interesting, but out of date