OT vs NOW

[Woody]

Are we held to a higher standard for salvation NOW vs the OT times when they had polygamy and slavery?

[Dr. Shane]

I think God accepts us where we are at. Then He works with us. We see that in individuals, societies and even the church. Certainly today we have the most knowledge and access to knowledge than any previous generation so if ever there was a people held to a higher standard it would be us.

[Sonny]

Right, but knowledge doesn't necessarily translated to understanding and comprehension. We all talk of Christ's love (agape) but I doubt anyone is living His selfless life. I guess I'm saying talk (or in this case) knowledge is cheap.

[Igakusei]

I hold myself to a higher standard than polygamy and slavery, but I guess that's not what you're asking :)

[Bravus]

Neither polygamy nor slavery directly have anything to do with salvation: we are saved through the blood of Christ, not through what we do or don't do. It could be argued that we have it easier, since we know that explicitly rather than through signs, types and codes like the OT people.

[Dr. Shane]

Man has always been saved by grace through faith. While grace transforms the heart which manifests itself in works that are observed by others, it results in different things in different ages, cultures and individuals. Abraham found grace and is considered to be the father of our faith, yet he had multiple wives and slaves. If Ted Wilson had multiple wives and slaves, he wouldn't be the president of our church.

[Woody]

Neither polygamy nor slavery directly have anything to do with salvation: we are saved through the blood of Christ, not through what we do or don't do. It could be argued that we have it easier, since we know that explicitly rather than through signs, types and codes like the OT people.

Excellent comments Bravus.

[Kevin H]

Of course not, God works with us and leads us as he did then. For example when we look at polygamy in the old testament we learn that nothing good can come from it, and God thus lead us away from it (excpet for those who read the words but refuse to learn the lesson). And we read into the word "slavery" what we use to have in the south. However that was illegal in the Old Testament and they were a place where run away slaves from other nations were accepted. What the Old Testament has for "slavery" is more of an endentured servant and it was used to mostly have pagan converts and especially their children, live with a Hebrew family to learn about Yahweh and God's lifestyle and eventually they or their children would be addopted into Israel.

[John317]

Neither polygamy nor slavery directly have anything to do with salvation: we are saved through the blood of Christ, not through what we do or don't do.

Do you really believe that what we do has nothing to do with whether we will be saved or not?

That is not what the Bible says, nor Ellen White. (See below for an example from the Bible and see GC 425, 428.)

It is true that we are justified (or put in right reletionship with God) by His grace through faith, but that doesn't mean our lives have no relationship to whether we are saved at last in God's kingdom. It simply means that we don't earn salvation.

It is like the man who is drowning and is thrown a rope. If he doesn't grab the rope, he drowns. If he does, he lives, but in any case he is not earning being saved by grabbing the robe. But you can't say that his behaior had nothing to do with whether he was saved or not.

I am forgiven and saved by the blood of Christ, but if I have truly accepted Christ's blood and am saved by Him, I will obey what He commands. This is exactly what He teaches. John 1: 3, 4 says that if people say that they love Him or know Him, yet do not obey His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

Neither the Bible nor Ellen White ever say that what we do or say has nothing to do with salvation. That's a popular but false and dangerous belief.

Paul himself, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote:

Romans 2:3-11

Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? [4] Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? [5] But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

[6] He will render to each one according to his works: [7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; [8] but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. [9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, [10] but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. [11] For God shows no partiality.

[Bravus]

What is it with you jumping with both feet on every word I say lately?

Anyway, please note the word 'directly' that I used. No works - including refraining from polygamy - can ever play the slightest part in our salvation. Only the blood of Christ is sufficient.

Our works might be evidence that we are saved, but they cannot save us.

This is very, very orthodox Seventh-day Adventist theology.

[John317]

I said something about it because it's a popular notion-- and seems to be getting more and more popular-- that our lives or works have nothing to do with our salvation. In fact, this is what is often stated in the Forum. It's a false doctrine.

Our works-- our lives-- do play a part in our salvation.

Check out FB 24 and the chapter on "Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary" in SDAs Believe .

It's one thing to say that we are saved by the blood of Christ and it's something totally different to say that a man's works have no relationship to his salvation.

I apologize if it seems I am jumping all over every word you say.

[Gerr]

Are we held to a higher standard for salvation NOW vs the OT times when they had polygamy and slavery?

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!! We have a lot more information than the Israelites ever had. We are without excuse, Rom 1.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Are we held to a higher standard for salvation NOW vs the OT times when they had polygamy and slavery?

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!! We have a lot more information than the Israelites ever had. We are without excuse, Rom 1.

Yes. I suppose. All the OT folks had was the 'voice of God' and the very presence of God.

[Woody]

And to the side bar issue of 'works' -

It seems obvious to be me we end up playing semantics. And they are used with skill to emphasize the two competing sides.

Both sides can be prove their sides to be correct. So, do you want to emphasize 'faith' or do you want to emphasize 'works' ... that is the question.

[rantzmar]

I said something about it because it's a popular notion-- and seems to be getting more and more popular-- that our lives or works have nothing to do with our salvation. In fact, this is what is often stated in the Forum. It's a false doctrine.

Our works-- our lives-- do play a part in our salvation.

Check out FB 24 and the chapter on "Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary" in SDAs Believe .

It's one thing to say that we are saved by the blood of Christ and it's something totally different to say that a man's works have no relationship to his salvation.

I apologize if it seems I am jumping all over every word you say.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

[John317]

I said something about it because it's a popular notion-- and seems to be getting more and more popular-- that our lives or works have nothing to do with our salvation. In fact, this is what is often stated in the Forum. It's a false doctrine.

Our works-- our lives-- do play a part in our salvation.

Check out FB 24 and the chapter on "Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary" in SDAs Believe .

It's one thing to say that we are saved by the blood of Christ and it's something totally different to say that a man's works have no relationship to his salvation.

Originally Posted By: rantzmar

(quoting): Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Being justified means being forgiven and put in right relationship with God. For sure, no one can do anything to earn this gift of God.

But we also need to realize that there's no contradiction between that verse and the following:

Romans 2:13

For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Romans 2:5-11

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

[6] He will render to each one according to his works: [7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; [8] but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. [9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, [10] but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. [11] For God shows no partiality.

1 Cor. 7:19

For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but [what counts is] keeping the commandments of God.

Matthew 7:22-23

On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Rev. 22:12

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.

Rev. 22:14, 15

Blessed are those who do His commandments [or wash their robes], so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

John 15:6

If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

James 2:14-26

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? [15] If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, [16] and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? [17] So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

[18] But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. [19] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! [20] Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? [22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; [23] and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"— and he was called a friend of God. [24] You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. [25] And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? [26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

[skyblue888]

Our works might be evidence that we are saved, but they cannot save us.

Bravus

_________

"Works without faith are dead and faith without works is dead. Works will never save us. It is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf." F.W.48.

How is that?

sky

[Dr. Rich]

Yes, how is that? It is very confusing and the whole question causes division. So why don't we go back and find out who it was that caused this confusion and division? Was it Jesus when He prayed for unity in John 17? Did, or does the words of Jesus cause confusion and division? Or was it someone else who came later and never met Jesus but said on his own word (testimony) that he was now an apostle but aadmitted that he never learned anything from the disciples? Hmmmm? This is a hard one to figure out!

[John317]

Let's not hijack another thread with the Paul vs. Christ theme again. I see evidence that the reason you find them not agreeing is that you don't understand much of Paul's theology and the teachings found in the books you reject.

If you like, just explain what you believe Christ taught and keep the debate about Paul vs. Christ for another discussion devoted to that question.

[Dr. Rich]

Now now John317, don't get your dander up. You were the one who brought up the confusion when you wrote; "it's a popular notion-- and seems to be getting more and more popular-- that our lives or works have nothing to do with our salvation. In fact, this is what is often stated in the Forum. It's a false doctrine. It's one thing to say that we are saved by the blood of Christ and it's something totally different to say that a man's works have no relationship to his salvation."

And 'Woody' wrote; "It seems obvious to be me we end up playing semantics. And they are used with skill to emphasize the two competing sides. Both sides can be prove their sides to be correct. So, do you want to emphasize 'faith' or do you want to emphasize 'works' ... that is the question."

So come on now John317, ALL I suggested was what anyone with a brain might want to do and that is to ANSWER the question. AS you clearly wrote, there are two sides. Why?

And, WHO was it that made the distinction between the OT and NT? Was it God? NO! It was humans that did this when they created the book of confusion called the bible. To God, there is NO SUCH thing as the OT and NT. God's plan of resoration was put into play at the beginning and it has not stopped.

But today we have the technology to investigate to find the truth--that is IF one takes the time to do so. God did NOT change. His covenant is the same from the beginning--obey me and live or don't and die.

[skyblue888]

No need to be confused.

It is true that faith without works is dead but works will never save us. God will reward us for the works that He Himself will have enabled us to do but these good works do not play a part in the salvation of the soul:

"If you would gather everything that is good and holy and noble and lovely in man and then present the subject to the angels of God as acting a part in the salvation of the human soul or in merit, the proposition would be rejected as treason." F.W.24.

So, do good works play a part in the salvation of the human soul? Absolutely not. It is true that God will reward us for our good works and it is the grace of the Holy Spirit that enables us to do these good works but good works do not play a part in the salvation of the soul.

As far as the salvation of the soul is concerned, "It is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf," not good works.

"In His divine arrangement, through unmerited favor, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. We are accepted through Christ's merits alone; and the acts of of mercy, the deeds of charity, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us, for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works, in and of themselves have no merit. When we have done all that is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed in the strength of our own sinful nature. The Lord has bidden us to draw night to Him and He will draw night to us; and drawning nigh to Him, we recieve the grace by which to do those works which will be rewarded at His hands." RH Jan 29,1895.

sky

[John317]

ALL I suggested was what anyone with a brain might want to do and that is to ANSWER the question. AS you clearly wrote, there are two sides. Why?

There are actually more than two sides and it isn't because the Bible is confusing.

The fact is that people always see things differently. It doesn't matter what the subject is or what the facts are. Any teacher of English knows this. If you give 30 students a poem or a story and ask them to write about what they believe the poem or the story is saying, you will get almost as many different interpretaions as there are students. Some will be in general agreement but there will be others who see it very differently.

Quote:

And, WHO was it that made the distinction between the OT and NT? Was it God? NO! It was humans that did this when they created the book of confusion called the bible.

I don't find the Bible confusing. What I've found is that the Bible is simple enough be understood by children but that there are also parts of it that require deep study in order to fully appreciate it.

[skyblue888]

One of the factors that have contributed to making the Bible sound complicated:

"To a great degree, theology, as studied and taught, is but a record of human speculation, serving only to 'darken counsel by words without knowledge.' Too often the motive in accumulating these many books is not so much a desire to obtain food for mind and soul, as it is an ambition to become acquainted with philosophers and theologians, a desire to present Christianity in learned terms and propositions." E.G. White, M.H.442.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

Well then, I guess what Jesus prayed for (unity) as found in John 17 is impossible, huh John317 and Sky? Perhaps your type of heaven will have many different churches and denominations, each with their own belief. Perhaps the Holy Spirit tells the muslims one thing and the Jews another and the Christians another and the Adventists another, Hmmmm?

Oh, but that can't be can it? Isn't truth singular and absolute? Seems to me IT IS US who have been deceived into believing lies that were intentionally put into the bible by those who put it together.

[Woody]

Quote:

Perhaps your type of heaven will have many different churches and denominations, each with their own belief

This is almost true.

All of these will be saved. But during the trip to Heaven ... we will all be re-programed to have unity of understanding. Yes, seven days of re-programming. There will still be learning in Heaven. But we will be united on the important factors.