The Flood

[hch]

Neither man nor Satan can justly charge God with the damages the Flood caused. It was not His direct act by which the moon was extinguished and the sun dimmed. He labored unceasingly to save man from stepping so far out of the ways of righteousness as to compel His retirement from control. If His efforts had been successful, there never would have been a flood. It came, not because God sent it, but because He could not stop it. Those who believe that there are two sides to the character of God--the loving side and "His strange act"--see the flood coming as a result of God's changing from the former to the latter. The real truth is that the flood proved inevitable, not because God changed His tactics, but because He remained undeviatingly the same. With Him, the use of force had ever been excluded. Therefore, to have prevented the flood once His final appeals had been rejected would have required Him to change to forcing His presence where it was emphatically not desired. This He could not do, thus leaving nothing to prevent the onset of disaster.

Satan and men had applied the greatest possible pressure upon God to force Him into changing His ways and introducing the weapons of force into His arsenal. But they failed. God had foreseen it from the beginning and simply went composedly on His way as the crisis developed, knowing that His principles would stand the test. They did.

sky

"God's great and strange work is to redeem and save and thus repair the ruin that sin has made." E.G. White, 3 RH 583.

"The work of destruction is a strange work to Him who is infinite in love." P.P.139.

This statement is often quoted as proof that God destroys but the statement is not saying that God's strange work is to destroy but that the work of destruction is a strange act to Him who is infinite in love.

"Satan is the destroyer." 6 T 388.

[skyblue888]

I have the same understanding on the flood or very similar,love it!.

Would love to hear how similar it is.

sky

[skyblue888]

Very interesting idea that seems to fit in with what my college chemistry teachers taught us about dating objects.

Really? Very interesting to hear. Would love to hear what they had to say. Could you share a little of what you heard from them? Thank you.

sky

[skyblue888]

Neither man nor Satan can justly charge God with the damages the Flood caused. It was not His direct act by which the moon was extinguished and the sun dimmed. He labored unceasingly to save man from stepping so far out of the ways of righteousness as to compel His retirement from control. If His efforts had been successful, there never would have been a flood. It came, not because God sent it, but because He could not stop it. Those who believe that there are two sides to the character of God--the loving side and "His strange act"--see the flood coming as a result of God's changing from the former to the latter. The real truth is that the flood proved inevitable, not because God changed His tactics, but because He remained undeviatingly the same. With Him, the use of force had ever been excluded. Therefore, to have prevented the flood once His final appeals had been rejected would have required Him to change to forcing His presence where it was emphatically not desired. This He could not do, thus leaving nothing to prevent the onset of disaster.

Satan and men had applied the greatest possible pressure upon God to force Him into changing His ways and introducing the weapons of force into His arsenal. But they failed. God had foreseen it from the beginning and simply went composedly on His way as the crisis developed, knowing that His principles would stand the test. They did.

"God's great and strange work is to redeem and save and thus repair the ruin that sin has made." E.G. White, 3 RH 583.

"The work of destruction is a strange work to Him who is infinite in love." P.P.139.

This statement is often quoted as proof that God destroys but the statement is not saying that God's strange work is to destroy but that the work of destruction is a strange act to Him who is infinite in love.

"Satan is the destroyer." 6 T 388.

sky

_________________________________

Sky, As I read more of your posting, I see an agenda that is rooted in the false notion that God is too good to destroy sinners.

To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}

[skyblue888]

A clear distinction must be seen between the principles of God's government itself, and the personal power resident in God by which He could enforce the observance of His ways if He chose to use those methods. When this distinction is seen, it then follows that if God's principles are under test then they must stand or fall on their own merits. If the Lord should find it necessary to introduce another factor, such as the use of omnipotent power, to settle the controversy, then this would depart from His original committal to leave the principles of righteousness to stand or fall on their own merits. It would also be an admission that they were defective and could not stand by virtue of their own intrinsic qualities. It would give Satan the whole argument, for this action would prove the adversary correct in his charges.

So from studying the beginnings of the great controversy we may clearly understand that God had positioned Himself where He could not interpose His omnipotent personal power to ensure that the victory was His. He had not assumed this position for the first time just to meet the issue. Eternally, He had occupied that place, but under the pressure of the test, He reaffirmed this truth with a much more clearly defined statement of His eternal principles and purposes.

The universally accepted view of the flood is that the wickedness of man had become so great that the Lord was obliged to step in with His judgmental power and wipe the antediluvian out as a stern warning of what all others would likewise receive if they pursued a similar course of defiance against God.

This traditionally-held view is in sharp conflict with the principles of God's position in the great controversy.

On one side we can see clearly that the Father and Son have allowed the conflict to play itself out upon the stage of this earth. They have declared that the victory for the cause of righteousness must and would come by the application of its own power and rightness--not because of the interposition of omnipotent power on God's part being used to destroy the non-conforming.

But, on the other hand, it is clear that as time passed and men began to really multiply upon the face of the earth, things were going from bad to worse for God's cause. Continually, in increasing numbers, the inhabitants of the earth were joining Satan, while God's accounting finally showed only eight to His credit. Yet even among them, the loyalty was far from absolute as demonstrated by Ham's behavior after the flood.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

As we look upon the whole problem back there, our thoughts could run along these lines. It was desperately important to God that the situation not be allowed to continue to the point where there was no one left on His side for, essential to the ultimate success of His plan, was the birth of the Redeemer through the righteous line. Should the righteous line be cut off, then God's plan must fail.

It must fail, not simply because the intention of God to save the human family would be frustrated, but because God would be deprived of the means of removing the cause of the rebellion. That cause was the misrepresentation of the character of God, firstly in the mind of Lucifer and later through him to the other creatures.

The only satisfactory and successful way to solve a problem is to remove the cause of it. Once the problem of sin, which is rebellion against the principles of God's government, entered the universe, all the resources of heaven were devoted to its solution. It is a mistake to limit the solution to the cleansing of sin from those who will be saved, while the rest are simply left to their annihilation. The problem will not be solved until the cause has been removed from the mind of every creature who has ever come into existence including all those who will, in the end, be eternally lost.

Inasmuch as the cause of all the trouble is the misrepresentation of God's character, whilever that misconception remains in the minds of angels and men, the rebellion must continue. Therefore, to end it, that misconception must be corrected. This cannot be done merely by declarations on God's part or by the use of force. There is only one way to accomplish it. The character of God must be manifested by One Who was equal with God. Only Christ could do the work.

But it was impossible for Him to do it successfully in the perfect environment of heaven. It could be done there to a certain extent but not wholly. There is a very valid reason for this. In heaven, Satan had not developed the fullness of his attack against the character of God. It remained for him to do that on this earth. This imposed on Christ the necessity of coming right to the place where Satan was perpetrating the fullness of his lies against God and there, side by side with the character of Satan, provide the contrasting revelation of God's character. Only as men and angels were able to see both of them side by side, could the revelation of God and Satan be so fully given that the cause of the struggle could be erased from angelic and human minds.

To be continued

[onlyhumanme]

yep very similar,I wouldnt no where to start without starting at creation and yes without the true character of God in mind it would be hard to grasp some concepts , youve got a great understanding...so i cant add much but just share a parable from creation of the heavens.

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, and returns not there [immediately], but waters the earth [first], and makes it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: so shall My word be that goes forth out of My mouth: it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

The waters in the sky represented the other group of loyal angels who would stay with Jesus and help Him in the contest which was soon to develop. That’s why He called the sky "heaven" – it was to give them a clue. Some of the higher group would descend to the earth as the water (rain) does bringing care and joy and understanding of God’s word, and then they would return to their place in the sky ready for another job. Hebrews 1:13-14.

[skyblue888]

As we look upon the whole problem back there, our thoughts could run along these lines. It was desperately important to God that the situation not be allowed to continue to the point where there was no one left on His side for, essential to the ultimate success of His plan, was the birth of the Redeemer through the righteous line. Should the righteous line be cut off, then God's plan must fail.

It must fail, not simply because the intention of God to save the human family would be frustrated, but because God would be deprived of the means of removing the cause of the rebellion. That cause was the misrepresentation of the character of God, firstly in the mind of Lucifer and later through him to the other creatures.

The only satisfactory and successful way to solve a problem is to remove the cause of it. Once the problem of sin, which is rebellion against the principles of God's government, entered the universe, all the resources of heaven were devoted to its solution. It is a mistake to limit the solution to the cleansing of sin from those who will be saved, while the rest are simply left to their annihilation. The problem will not be solved until the cause has been removed from the mind of every creature who has ever come into existence including all those who will, in the end, be eternally lost.

Inasmuch as the cause of all the trouble is the misrepresentation of God's character, whilever that misconception remains in the minds of angels and men, the rebellion must continue. Therefore, to end it, that misconception must be corrected. This cannot be done merely by declarations on God's part or by the use of force. There is only one way to accomplish it. The character of God must be manifested by One Who was equal with God. Only Christ could do the work.

But it was impossible for Him to do it successfully in the perfect environment of heaven. It could be done there to a certain extent but not wholly. There is a very valid reason for this. In heaven, Satan had not developed the fullness of his attack against the character of God. It remained for him to do that on this earth. This imposed on Christ the necessity of coming right to the place where Satan was perpetrating the fullness of his lies against God and there, side by side with the character of Satan, provide the contrasting revelation of God's character. Only as men and angels were able to see both of them side by side, could the revelation of God and Satan be so fully given that the cause of the struggle could be erased from angelic and human minds.

To be continued

For Jesus Christ to come into this position, He must be born into the human family. He could and would not force any woman to be His mother. The one through whom He would enter the earthly arena must be absolutely willing to perform this office. We can be assured that no one who was on Satan's side would undertake such a commission. Satan knew this. Therefore, he realized that one way to secure the victory in the contest was to either win every human being over to his side, or to win all he could and then use them to exterminate the rest.

Satan was terribly afraid that if Christ did appear on the earth, He would be successful in exposing the lies he had levelled against God, with the result that he would be rejected with loathing by all the creatures whose support he so desperately sought. He knew that everything depended on his successfully preventing such a demonstration from being given. Therefore he worked with fanatical and unsleeping zeal to win as many of the human family as possible to his side and to destroy the remainder. Success in so doing would deprive God of the means whereby Christ could enter the earthly arena of battle.

Victory for Satan would have been assured at any point of time before the first advent of Christ, where he could have destroyed the righteous line. It was vital to his cause that he achieve this, while for God it was equally vital that the righteous line be preserved. Had God lost every follower to the devil, He would have been unable to bring His Son into the world, provide thereby the necessary character demonstration, unmask the deceptions of the devil and thus, by removing the cause of the rebellion, bring it to its end. Instead His kingdom would remain cursed with an ever widening and deepening scourge of rebellion.

Never did Satan come so close to absolute success in his determinations than just prior to the flood. God saw His forces of loyal followers dwindle down to a mere and doubtful eight while the devil numbered millions as his. It was all too obvious that but a short time would elapse before death and apostasy would swing the balance totally in Satan's favour.

With the future of the entire kingdom of God throughout the infinite reaches of His domains at stake, such a development placed enormous pressure upon God to step in and take direct and decisive action to save the situation from total and eternal disaster. If the traditional view of what God did at the flood is correct, then God succumbed to that pressure.

To be continued

[skyblue888]

There is a terrible conflict between the popular concept that God in personal judgment sent the flood upon the earth, and the truth that God has submitted His principles to stand on their own merits against the mightiest attacks the devil could make upon them. It is impossible for us to question the veracity of the truth that God and Christ had agreed to this utterly fair and proper contest between their principles and those the devil wished to introduce.

God and Christ had entered into such a plan, and then, sixteen centuries later, when things had moved to the brink of disaster for Them, They had organized the flood. They must have gone into conference and reasoned as follows:

"In the beginning We agreed and announced that We would permit the principles of righteousness to be subjected to the severest tests the devil could place upon them. We went on record as testifying that those principles are so perfect and complete that they are immortal and cannot be destroyed. We averred that there was no need to introduce super-power weapons to force a conclusion favorable to Us. But things are turning so badly against Us that if We do not step in now with Our infinite power and curb the onrush of Satan and his people, all will be loss to Us and gain to him. Therefore the situation now developed demands that We arise and do something. What shall it be?"

Popular theology asserts that the Lord then stepped in with the flood to thoroughly curb the advancement of Satan's cause. He wiped out Satan's forces to the last individual and so savaged the earth that it was never the same again.

If this is what God did, then He made a complete farce of the original statement of willingness to submit the case to fair contest and of His expression of confidence that the principles of righteousness could survive such a test. It would appear that He started out in the hope that they would; viewed with growing dismay the turning of the tide against Him; held out till the last possible moment, and then found Himself obliged to resort to the use of His limitless powers to contain the rebellion within certain limits.

To be continued

[skyblue888]

Think of a number of people who, year after year, entered the competition for the best front garden in town. One man of unusual skill took the prize time after time until he came to think it was his by right. Yet, each year, he put forth the utmost effort to ensure that none outclassed him. The time came when, to his consternation, a new face entered the contest and it became apparent as the months went by, that this newcomer was an exceptional gardener whose efforts showed every prospect of taking off the first prize.

The usual prize winner became convinced that unless something was done, he certainly would not be the number one man this year and perhaps never would be again. Desperately, he worked harder on his own plot but he was never able to outstrip the new man. He saw at last that he could not win the contest by fair means so he determined to win it otherwise. In the dead of night, he let loose some animals to rampage through the property of the other, with the result that the beautiful garden was destroyed. When the judges came the next day, he received the prize as usual. No one knew, of course, that he was responsible for the devastation of the real prizewinning garden and he was most careful not to reveal this for he knew with what indignation such an action would be viewed.

Furthermore, the revelation to all concerned of what he had done would have turned the judges against him. Not one of them would have awarded him the prize. They would have agreed that the man whose garden had been ravaged was the real prize winner. Once it is clearly understood that the Lord had agreed to submit the principles of righteousness to any kind of test and declared that they would stand on their own merits without the interposition of arbitrary power, it will likewise be seen that should God at the last moment resort to the use of destructive power to wipe out the efforts of His competitor, then no one will believe in Him. He will be literally giving the case away to Satan.

God would give His enemy every just right to charge Him with unfairness, duplicity and deception. Satan would ask how he could ever fairly demonstrate his claims, when the Lord lets him go until he is on the very brink of success and then, because He is the possessor of omnipotent power, uses that to wipe out all Satan has achieved. Satan could rightfully complain that he never would have any real chance of proving anything. God would have no defense against this argument and it would actually serve to increase the spirit of rebellion in the universe. No fair-minded person would stand on God's side once these issues were clearly understood.

Our faith in the justice and honour of God's character and the veracity of the scriptures must be such that we are well prepared to hold on till the problem is solved.

To be continued

[skyblue888]

We cannot accept the idea that God, who knows all things from the beginning, would commit Himself to a position which would later get completely out of hand, forcing Him to introduce methods He had originally declared would never be used. If God did this, He would have to be rated as an impractical idealist and we need a God superior to that.

When God committed all the resources of Heaven to ending the great controversy, He knew already the coming numerical imbalance at the flood. It did not catch Him by surprise and He had made full provision to meet the emergency. Therefore, when He promised the ultimate triumph of truth and predicted Christ's coming to the earth as an essential part of the plan, He was well aware how narrowly the scheme would come short of failure in Noah's day. Knowing all this in advance, did not perturb Him in the slightest. He made no provisions for it outside of His eternal principles of truth. He still committed Himself to fair and open contest.

God had not sent the flood to obliterate Satan's forces. On the contrary, He had done His very best to keep the flood from coming for as long as He possibly could. When it finally came, it was not because He had sent it, but because He could no longer prevent it.

The key to the problem lay in the application of two principles. The first is that God will never force His presence where it is not desired, and the second is that every power in nature is directly and continually dependent on God's creative power to keep it on station fulfilling its appointed task. Therefore, in the era leading up to the deluge, the sun and the moon, which were critical factors in the coming of the flood, were dependent on the presence and power of God to keep them burning at exactly the correct heat level and stationed at the proper distance from the earth. Let the Spirit of the Lord be removed from the control and direction of those two orbs of fire, and the flood had to follow.

Under Satan's determined and relentless influence, men increasingly desired total separation from God. They wanted nothing of His ways or principles. God, knowing the dreadful consequences of such a course, sent message after message pleading with them to correct their drift, but they steadily insisted on His departure.

Because He will never force His presence where it is not desired, He had no choice but to depart. In doing so, He gave them what they wanted. The moon, being nearer to the earth, was the first to feel the effect of God's departure. It went out entirely. The sun, much further away from men and much larger than the moon, took longer to diminish completely. Before it could do so, the wicked had perished and suddenly the situation was reversed. Whereas the majority had been against God, now the changed situation placed the majority on His side. They were only eight in number but still the majority.

These, of course, desired the Lord to fill His office and do His work of sustaining the powers of heaven and earth. Thus the returning Spirit of God was able to arrest any further decay in the sun and maintain it at the diminished level. It has remained that way ever since.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

With the moon out and the sun at diminished output, there was neither the heat energy to return the water to its proper place nor the energy to maintain it there. Nor was it possible for the surviving remnant to live on a shoreless ocean. The water must be relocated to expose sufficient land to produce food for man and beast. This was accomplished by the violent upthrusts of land masses forming the great mountain chains and peaks found in the Himalayas, Andes, Alps, Rockies, and so on. Additionally, enormous quantities of water were held in cold storage at the poles.

Artists' representations of conditions experienced by the disembarking voyagers, give the impression that the water gently subsided and Noah and his family emerged to a scarred but peaceful earth. This has to be far from true. We have no concept of the titanic convulsions which all but tore this earth apart. There were no great mountain chains between the creation and the cataclysm. The earth was beautifully formed with pleasant, undulating land, low hills, verdant valleys and slowly moving rivers. Think, then, of the energy necessary to open up the almost bottomless ocean depths, and thrust those huge mountain chains into the air as high as twenty-nine thousand feet.

During the flood, unbelievable quantities of organic material were buried in the earth which quickly generated heat. This burst through to the surface in explosions and fiery issues. Volcanoes circled the globe. Most of them are extinct today, but then they belched forth smoke and fire incessantly.

Grim indeed was the view confronting the patriarch, his wife, and children, as they stepped out of their boat. The sky was filled with the pall of black smoke, the earth heaved and shook as earthquake tremors succeeded each other. It must have required some centuries before it settled down again.

It was not God's direct act by which the moon was extinguished and the sun dimmed. He laboured unceasingly to save man from stepping so far out of the ways of righteousness as to compel His retirement from control. If His efforts had been successful, there never would have been a flood. It came, not because God sent it, but because He could not stop it. Those who believe that there are two sides to the character of God--the loving side and "His strange act"--see the flood coming as a result of God's changing from the former to the latter.

The real truth is that the flood proved inevitable, not because God changed His tactics, but because He remained undeviatingly the same. With Him, the use of force has ever been excluded. Therefore, to have prevented the flood once His final appeals had been rejected would have required Him to change to forcing His presence where it was emphatically not desired. This He could not do, thus leaving nothing to prevent the onset of disaster.

Satan and men had applied the greatest possible pressure upon God to force Him into changing His ways and introducing the weapons of force into His arsenal. But they failed. God had foreseen it from the beginning and simply went composedly on His way as the crisis developed, knowing that His principles would stand the test. They did.

This concludes this series on what led to the Flood.

sky

Any more comments?

[skyblue888]

Noah and his family emerged from the ark to tread a shattered earth. The destruction was beyond description.

The Noachic flood was none of God's doing, it having come in spite of His efforts. Therefore, His statement that there would never again be a flood of water, was not an undertaking to restrain Himself, but a prediction of what the future held.

For there to be another flood of water, the conditions necessary to produce it must exist. Before Noah's time, they did, but today they no longer do, as they did then. The only way total flooding could reoccur would be for the polar caps to melt, the mountain chains leveled into the ocean depths and, in general, the land masses reduced to about the same elevation. All the water which covered the earth in the first days of creation and which returned to submerge it again, is still here. Therefore, it would cover the earth if it was evenly distributed over the surface again.

Should the Lord withdraw His sustaining presence from the earth, convulsions of this magnitude are not impossible. It happened before, to produce the ocean depths and the mountain heights, for neither of these existed between the creation and the flood.

But we are well informed in God's Word that this is not the direction things will take when His presence is finally and fully withdrawn from the earth. Rather, a flood of fire, not water, will engulf the planet.

These floods, firstly of water and lastly of fire, are not disconnected. The former is the parent of the latter. This relationship should be clearly understood, and it will be the purpose of the evidences and arguments immediately following, to certify this.

To be continued

[skyblue888]

It is not usual to think of water producing fire, for water is the most commonly used means of extinguishing a conflagration. However, it is easily proved that the waters of the flood were the direct cause of destructive fires which have burst forth from the earth ever since, and are the means whereby enormous amounts of fuel will be provided to fire that last great holocaust.

Problems arising within the earth were spawned when the flood waters buried vast forests whose timbers were of majestic and durable quality. Under the multiplied pressures of earth and rock beneath which they were entombed, they turned to coal which then produced oil. In some cases the generated heat ignites these materials which penetrate to the surface, forming volcanoes, thermal activities, and fiery fissures. There are situations where the opening earth admits tonnages of water which, contacting the molten rock, transforms into steam. Great pressures are built up causing underground explosions, the radiating shock waves of which trigger earthquakes. These are also caused by sinking of the earth as the supporting material below is consumed. When an earthquake happens at sea, a tidal wave is launched.

Thus, the flood is truly the parent of all these troubles within the earth itself. Weather as it is today, is the product of conditions brought about by the deluge. The redistribution of land and water masses, the location of mountains and flat lands, and the inequalities of climate, all formed by the flood, are the determining factors in producing atmospheric problems from their mildest to their wildest forms.

To be continued

"The entire surface of the earth was changed at the Flood. A third dreadful curse rested upon it in consequence of sin. As the water began to subside, the hills and mountains were surrounded by a vast, turbid sea. Everywhere were strewn the dead bodies of men and beasts. The Lord would not permit these to remain to decompose and pollute the air, therefore He made of the earth a vast burial ground. A violent wind which was caused to blow for the purpose of drying up the waters, moved them with great force, in some instances even carrying away the tops of the mountains and heaping up trees, rocks, and earth above the bodies of the dead. By the same means the silver and gold, the choice wood and precious stones, which had enriched and adorned the world before the Flood, and which the inhabitants had idolized, were concealed from the sight and search of men, the violent action of the waters piling earth and rocks upon these treasures, and in some cases even forming mountains above them. God saw that the more He enriched and prospered sinful men, the more they would corrupt their ways before Him. The treasures that should have led them to glorify the bountiful Giver had been worshiped, while God had been dishonored and despised.

The earth presented an appearance of confusion and desolation impossible to describe. The mountains, once so beautiful in their perfect symmetry, had become broken and irregular. Stones, ledges, and ragged rocks were now scattered upon the surface of the earth. In many places hills and mountains had disappeared, leaving no trace where they once stood; and plains had given place to mountain ranges. These changes were more marked in some places than in others. Where once had been earth's richest treasures of gold, silver, and precious stones, were seen the heaviest marks of the curse. And upon countries that were not inhabited, and those where there had been the least crime, the curse rested more lightly.

At this time immense forests were buried. These have since been changed to coal, forming the extensive coal beds that now exist, and also yielding large quantities of oil. The coal and oil frequently ignite and burn beneath the surface of the earth. Thus rocks are heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. The action of the water upon the lime adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes, and fiery issues. As the fire and water come in contact with ledges of rock and ore, there are heavy explosions underground, which sound like muffled thunder. The air is hot and suffocating. Volcanic eruptions follow; and these often failing to give sufficient vent to the heated elements, the earth itself is convulsed, the ground heaves and swells like the waves of the sea, great fissures appear, and sometimes cities, villages, and burning mountains are swallowed up. These wonderful manifestations will be more and more frequent and terrible just before the second coming of Christ and the end of the world, as signs of its speedy destruction." Patriarchs and Prophets, p.108,109.

[skyblue888]

In November, 1977, a severe snow storm ravaged South Dakota, Minnesota, and Wisconsin before crossing the border into Canada. A moisture-laden mass of warm air had flowed northward from the Gulf of Mexico until it met a southbound cold front originating in the Arctic zone. At the meeting point over the northern states, the warm, moist air was chilled and immediately precipitated in heavy snowfalls. Roads were closed, lives were lost, and extensive damage was done. It was days before life returned to normal.

This was possible only because of the geographical and climatic factors existing. Had there been another displacement of these elements, the northern states would never have had that storm. If, for instance the Rocky Mountains had lain east and west across southern Texas, the advancing warm air would have been forced upward to chillier elevations causing it to condense into rain which would have fallen on the coastal plains and run back to the sea again. There would never have been the confrontation between warm and cold fronts which produced the storms and losses in the north. Likewise, if the mountain chains had been lying east and west in Canada the cold front would never have come through to the south. It would have detoured off to the east or west.

Consideration of other possibilities would produce interesting results. Suppose that the Gulf of Mexico was dry land, that the mountain chains all lay east-west so that a plain stretched between them from the Pacific to the Atlantic, or that the United States was another shape. The weather pattern in each case would be very different.

What tremendous changes the flood set up, producing results which reach down to the end of time. The destruction initiated at the flood but halted before it had finally consumed all things, will then break forth to completion. Those fires by which the earth will be reduced to ashes, will also be the child of the flood, for the remaining deposits of coal and oil in the earth will fuel that last conflagration.

In the meantime, drought and flood, tempest and earthquake, tidal wave and hurricane, volcano and fire, are that cataclysm's troubled offspring which will plague earth dwellers till the end. Not every area is afflicted with all these scourges. In fact, some parts are apparently free from them. This explains why some centres of sin pass unscathed year after year, while others seemingly less iniquitous, are struck down with shocking suddenness. Those cities located right where one of these children of the flood resides, need to be far more careful than those in positions more favoured.

For years the giant of destruction will remain unseen or manifest itself only in mild forms, because the restraining power of God holds it in check while He seeks to woo men from their danger and while there remains in the city a faithful remnant for whose sake He will continue His restraint. But, during this time, the unwitting inhabitants continue to resist His appeals until finally He has no choice but to leave them to their desires.

The unfettered monster then bursts with unannounced fury upon the unprotected heads and homes of the abandoned sinners, whose destruction may be as total in the area where they are, as it was over the whole earth when the flood came. Sodom and Gomorrah were a case in point.

To be continued

[ClubV12]

My son, not raised a christian nor a christian now, is majoring in geology. How it breaks my heart he is unable to appreciate the wonderful geology here presented.

Well done Sky, thank you for this thread. Perhaps, in time, I can share some of it's views for consideration with my son.

[skyblue888]

Thanks ClubV12. Your son is a geologist but not a Christian. It would be interesting to know how he would react to what has been said here so far.

"Geologists claim to find evidence from the earth itself that it is very much older than the Mosaic record teaches. Bones of men and animals, as well as instruments of warfare, petrified trees, etcetera, much larger than any that now exist, or that have existed for thousands of years, have been discovered, and from this it is inferred that the earth was populated long before the time brought to view in the record of creation, and by a race of beings vastly superior in size to any men now living. Such reasoning has led many professed Bible believers to adopt the position that the days of creation were vast, indefinite periods.

But apart from Bible history, geology can prove nothing. Those who reason so confidently upon its discoveries have no adequate conception of the size of men, animals, and trees before the Flood, or of the great changes which then took place. Relics found in the earth do give evidence of conditions differing in many respects from the present, but the time when these conditions existed can be learned only from the Inspired Record. In the history of the Flood, inspiration has explained that which geology alone could never fathom. In the days of Noah, men, animals, and trees, many times larger than now exist, were buried, and thus preserved as an evidence to later generations that the antediluvians perished by a flood. God designed that the discovery of these things should establish faith in inspired history; but men, with their vain reasoning, fall into the same error as did the people before the Flood--the things which God gave them as a benefit, they turn into a curse by making a wrong use of them." P.P.112.

sky

[skyblue888]

Sodom and Gomorrah.

The scriptures report the devastation of those cities and their peoples in the same way that all the other destructions which fell upon abandoned sinners are described.

"Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; And He overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground." Genesis 19:24,25.

To millions of Bible readers, these words have pictured God as personally pouring great sheets of flame from His own hands upon the hapless victims below. But, those who have come to learn and accept the principles of God's character as explored in this study and who have learned to use the Bible as its own dictionary, know that such an interpretation is wholly incorrect.

Rather, the truly Biblical interpretation of these words is that the Lord had no option but to withdraw and leave the wicked to the fate they had chosen. This He had done only when every means and appeal had been totally exhausted and there was nothing more He could do. Then, whatever potential of destruction was lurking in the area, was unleashed. The result was terminal.

There is always great value in assessing the implications of a certain belief, so study will now be given to see in what image God is cast by the belief that He personally poured that fire down upon the dwellers of the plains. Only a certain kind of God would do this.

Death by fire is one of the cruelest and most-to-be-feared ways to die. In Sao Paulo, Brazil, on February 1, 1974, a fire started by an electrical short-circuit in an air-conditioner, engulfed the upper fourteen stories of a newly constructed twenty-five story bank building, trapping hundreds of workers as the flames fed on combustible interior-finish materials. Due to inadequate escape facilities, at least two hundred and twenty-seven persons lost their lives. Those in the higher floors above the fire level found themselves cut off. As the fire advanced upwards, many chose to die by leaping from the upper levels rather than face the hungry flames.

In the jungles and forests it is the thing most feared by the animal kingdom. Beasts and reptiles lose all fear of each other as they flee pell-mell from the roaring flames. There is good reason, for death by fire is a horrible death.

Think of yourself as facing the death penalty, the only consolation being that the choice of how you will die is given to you. The choices are firing squad, gassing, the electric chair, beheading, hanging, or being burned alive. None of these is a pleasant prospect, but when you sit and think of your body being roasted while you are still alive, you know that that is the very last choice you would make. It is not difficult to realize that this is the kind of death which a judge or king would impose upon a person whose death he wished to make as painful as possible.

to be continued

*please keep these words in mind:

'I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection." E.G. White.

[skyblue888]

Picture the scene back there when the consuming flames fell upon the cities of the plain. The scriptures tell us that "when the morning arose," Lot and his family were hurried out of the city and, as soon as they were clear, the destruction fell in flaming torrents.

Therefore it was an early morning conflagration. The sun is beginning to mount in the heavens. The golden glow of the morning is changed to fiery orange and red. People are glancing with fearful apprehension through the windows and see an appalling spectacle outside. Fire is running like a river down the street engulfing victims in its path who fall writhing and twisting in searing agony.

Within the house, there is protection for only a short time. The flames are consuming the timbers, licking in through doors and windows and reaching out for the trapped ones inside. They retreat to an inner room, but though it gives them a little longer to live, it makes the end more agonizing. Steadily, the temperature in the room rises while the flames batter at the walls without, until the room becomes an oven in which they are slowly but terribly baked alive. The temperature of their clothes rises above ignition point and bursts into flames. As they tear them off, their flesh comes away in great sheets and the stench of cooking human tissue chokes the air.

When the flames at last break through the walls they are already dead, lying naked of clothes and skin in twisted, bloated, horrible postures. The expressions frozen by death on their faces, express the extreme suffering of terror and pain through which they departed.

It is not a pleasant scene upon which to dwell. It would have been a far worse one to behold. Yet it must be visualized as realistically as possible so that it can be comprehended that no God of mercy, justice, and love, would ever behave in such a way to personally and deliberately inflict a death of this nature upon anyone.

The ability to do certain things reveals the disposition within the doer. It is not possible for any being in the universe, including God, to do everything. The truth of this statement is confined to the spiritual and ethical side of the person. Admittedly, God has the physical power by which He can do anything. But while He has the might, there are some things His character will never permit Him to do. Just as surely as Satan's character will not allow him to love, so God's character prevents Him from hating any other individual, no matter how much that person may have wronged Him.

Therefore, if God poured the fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, it could only be because it was in Him to do it. It had to be a part of His character. Therefore, God has within Him a spirit of cruelty by which He is motivated to select the cruellest possible death for those who have refused to obey Him. Without that, He could never have treated the Sodomites as He is accused of having done.

But that is not God's character. He is not cruel, sadistic, and revengeful. He would never select the worst conceivable punishment, and then administer it to those who did not appreciate His ways and acted contrary to His ideas.

Terrible are the implications of believing that God determined that the cities of the plain should be consumed by fire and then proceeded to do it. It is to equate Him with the papacy in the Dark Ages, whose constant practice was to burn to death those who refused to submit to her assumed authority.

Something of the seriousness of this is manifested when it is recognized that the papacy in the Dark Ages was Satan's masterpiece of misrepresentation of God's character. If we wish to understand what God is not, then behold the principles and practices of the papacy. The way God is supposed to have behaved at Sodom and Gomorrah is exactly as the papacy would have behaved if she had been in God's position. Therefore, how God is thought to have behaved is certainly not the way He conducted His affairs there.

The papacy went forth to convert the people to her religious beliefs and service. When her first efforts were unsuccessful, she began to exert pressure upon them until, when it was clear that the subjects of her ministrations had no mind to ever obey her, she cruelly destroyed them with fire. In doing this, she represented herself not only as administering the will of God but of doing it as she and Satan would have it believed God does it.

The very fact that this is the way of the papacy is certain denial of its being God's way for, if anyone wishes to know what God is not, let him behold what the papacy is and what she does. Contrawise, if anyone wishes to know what God is, let him look at the life of Jesus Christ. Never will the two witnesses agree.

It is with horror and loathing that we read of the papal practice of burning victims to death. Yet we have looked with satisfaction upon God's destroying by fire (as we imagined He did) those who would not obey Him. But careful thought will lead all to understand that if they do continue to believe that God personally decreed that the Sodomites should die by fire and then as personally administered the destruction, then our God is a cruel, revengeful, and therefore self-centred God. Of such a God the papacy is a fit symbol.

Evidence that would further help us to deny such teachings is found in the varying habits of men according to the influence Christianity has had over them. Those heathen races who have little or no Christian influence are the ones who will execute their victims with the greatest cruelty. They will devise means of bringing them to the very doors of death and then resuscitating them, so that they die over and over again as it were.

But those nations where the mighty influence of Protestantism has had its effect, dispatch their criminals and traitors in the most painless way possible. The hangman was required to study how to set the noose so that death would be instant from a broken neck rather than from strangulation, while the headsman was required to strike only one sure blow fairly on the exposed neck of the condemned.

The ultimate witness to the character of God is found in those who have drawn so near to Him as to possess His character. Such a people cannot be brought to take up any weapon of destruction against anyone, not even their very worst enemies. They would much rather die themselves than take the life of another. That is the example of the life of Christ. He would rather die Himself than require that the life of another be taken. This is the ultimate outliving of the injunction to turn the other cheek and go the second mile. A God who counseled this kind of behaviour as the reflection of His own, could never pour fire on Sodom and Gomorrah. He did there just what He did on every other occasion. He did not "stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression," but He did "leave the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they had sown." The Great Controversy, 36.

If the Lord of heaven did not act the part of an executioner and personally pour fire on those cities, how were they destroyed? Are we left with no scientific information to reveal the nature of that disaster?

to be continued

"Force is the last resort of every false religion. At first it tries attraction, as the king of Babylon tried the power of music and outward show. If these attractions, invented by men inspired by Satan, failed to make men worship the image, the hungry flames of the furnace were ready to consume them. So it will be now. The papacy has exercised her power to compel men to obey her, and she will continue to do so. (ST May 6, 1897).

[hch]

Thank you for sharing these passages of Scripture and the quotes from Mrs. White. There is no agenda other than stating facts and establishing the principles of God's dealing with men which are ever the same. (G.C.343)

[skyblue888]

Thank you for sharing these passages of Scripture and the quotes from Mrs. White. There is no agenda other than stating facts and establishing the principles of God's dealing with men which are ever the same. (G.C.343)

[skyblue888]

There is a considerable amount of information available if careful search is made for it, though hampering the search is the relative uncertainty as to where these cities actually stood.

There are those scholars who have looked for the cities on the northern side of the Dead Sea, but "Other scholars seek these cities underneath the waters of the southern end of the Dead Sea. Arguments for this view are more numerous and weighty:

(1) The "vale of Siddim" in which these cities were located is identified with the "salt sea" in Genesis 14:3. The northern two-thirds of the present Dead Sea reaches a depth of one thousand, three hundred and twenty-eight feet, and must have existed as early as Abraham's time, but the depth of the southern part nowhere exceeds sixteen feet. Submerged trees show that part of this area was dry in relatively modern times, and accurate measurements have shown that the level of the sea has been steadily rising during the last century.

"(2) Asphalt is found at the southern end of the Dead Sea, while the Vale of Siddim is said to have been "full of slimepits," RSV "bitumen pits" (Genesis 14:10). Bitumen, or asphalt, still erupts from the bottom of the southern part of the Dead Sea and floats to the shore.

"(3) Statements made by classical authors, Diodorus Siculus (ii. 48. 7-9), Strabo (Georgr. xvi. 2. 42-44), Tacitus (Hist. v. 6. 7), and Josephus (War iv. 8. 4), describe an area south of the Dead Sea (presumably now covered by its rising water) as scorched by a fiery catastrophe that destroyed several cities whose burned remains were still visible in their day. Foul gases are said to emerge from fissures of the ground. Compare Deuteronomy 29:23. Submerged forest in the Dead Sea near Jebel Usdum, "Mount of Sodom". Somewhere under these waters lie the ashes of Sodom and Gomorrah.

"(4) Geologists have found oil and natural gases in the ground at the southern end of the Dead Sea, which is at the same time an area frequently disturbed by earthquakes, hence furnished all the conditions for the catastrophe described in the Bible. Furthermore, Jebel Usdum, the "Mount of Sodom," at the southwestern shore of the Dead Sea, consists of 50 per cent rock salt. Some have conjectured that in an upheaval during the destruction of Sodom some of this salt may have been dislodged and may have buried Lot's wife, piling over her to form a "pillar of salt" (Genesis 19:26). (The place where the Israelis have a potash extraction plant, on the southwestern shore, has been named Sodom, but it has no connection with the ancient Sodom.)

"(5) A number of streams enter the southern part of the Dead Sea from the east, in a region that is still very fertile, and it is reasonable to believe that the whole valley now forming the southern-most part of the Dead Sea was once that exceptionally fertile plain, one fitting the Bible description which compares the land with the Garden of Eden and the Nile valley (ch 13:10).

"(6) Kyle and Albright, in their exploration of the region lying southeast of the Dead Sea, found no ancient ruins of cities, but discovered an elaborate place of worship on a hillside with remains dating from before 1800 B.C. This site, "Bab edh-Dhra", evidently was a place where the annual festivals of a large population were held. The cities in which this population once lived must have been in the area now covered by the waters of the Dead Sea.

"(7) Zoar, one of the 5 cities of the plain (Genesis 14:2), was at the southern end of the Dead Sea in the time of Christ." The S.D.A. Bible Dictionary, 8:1028, 1029. This statement gives excellent reasons for concluding that the site of those ancient cities was at the southern end of the Dead Sea. But it also tells some further interesting facts about the area. "Bitumen, or asphalt, still erupts from the bottom of the southern part of the Dead Sea and floats to the shore. . . . Geologists have found oil and natural gases in the ground at the southern end of the Dead Sea, which is at the same time an area frequently disturbed by earthquakes."

The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1975 Edition, Macropedia, Volume 14:165 states:

"The Dead Sea was known in ancient times as Lake Asphaltites (from which is derived the term asphaltum) because of the semisolid petroleum washed up on its shores from underwater sepages.

"Even today the southern region of the Dead Sea is rich in asphalt. Inflammable gases still escape from rock crevices in the area. Asphalt rising to the surface of the southern part of the Dead Sea gave to it the name Lake Asphaltitis in classical times. Massive lumps of asphalt floating on the surface are often of sufficient size to support several persons. Asphalt, sulphur, and other combustible materials have been reclaimed and exported from this region for years." The S.D.A. Bible Commentary, 1:335.

Asphalt, oil, natural and highly inflammable gases and earthquakes are not common to every part of the world, but they are a combination often found together. Where they are found indicates a spot where enormous amounts of vegetable material in the form of plants and trees together with animal and human carcasses were buried at the flood. Where such materials are found there is the formation of coal, oil, gas, and petroleum which may or may not combust. If it does, then volcanic or thermal activity will result, usually accompanied by earthquakes and tremors.

"Before the flood there were immense forests. The trees were many times larger than any trees which we now see. They were of great durability. They would know nothing of decay for hundreds of years. At the time of the flood these forests were torn up or broken down and buried in the earth. In some places large quantities of these immense trees were thrown together and covered with stones and earth by the commotions of the flood. They have since petrified and become coal which accounts for the large coal beds which are now found. This coal has produced oil. God causes large quantities of coal and oil to ignite and burn. Rocks are intensely heated, limestone is burned, and iron ore melted. Water and fire under the surface of the earth meet. The action of water upon the limestone adds fury to the intense heat, and causes earthquakes, volcanoes and fiery issues. The action of fire and water upon the ledges of rocks and ore, causes loud explosions which sound like muffled thunder. These wonderful exhibitions will be more numerous and terrible just before the coming of Christ and the end of the world, as signs of its speedy destruction.

Coal and oil are generally to be found where there are no burning mountains or fiery issues. When fire and water under the surface of the earth meet, the fiery issues cannot give sufficient vent to the heated elements beneath. The earth is convulsed—the ground trembles, heaves, and rises into swells or waves, and there are heavy sounds like thunder underground. The air is heated and suffocating. The earth quickly opens, and I saw villages, cities and burning mountains carried down together into the earth." Spiritual Gifts, 3:79, 80.

This makes it plain that wherever there is a spot on the earth where such enormous amounts of vegetation have been buried to petrify into coal and oil, there is the potential for volcanic eruptions and devastating earthquakes. The evidences still existing today show that Sodom and Gomorrah and their associated villages and towns were located over just such a spot.

They were in danger constantly, for they were living over a powder keg, a disaster which was only waiting to happen. But the Lord desired their salvation. He was as loathe to see them perish as He is to see anyone destroyed. So, He filled His usual role of protector of those wicked cities, while His Spirit pleaded with them to repent and escape the wrath to come. But they would not and the time came when finally the protecting Presence had to be withdrawn leaving no power to control the seething elements beneath the ground. Long held back, when released they exploded in one spectacular and all-consuming fireball of destruction that filled the heavens above where they stood and the earth where they rested.

It was not something which God sent in the sense that He decreed what should happen to them and then personally used His power to see that it happened. Rather it came, not because the Lord brought it, but because He could not hold it back any longer. There was no one the Sodomites could blame for their destruction but themselves.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

A wide variety of destructions befall the wicked. There are those who, as in the cases of Sodom and Gomorrah, are wiped out by volcanic eruptions, while others are taken by flood, earthquake, hurricane, hailstorm, accidents by air, sea, and land, giant conflagrations in forests and buildings, famine, or by the savage outbursts of human wrath. The only consistent pattern through it all is that the disaster is according to the potential of destruction common to the area.

This denies the charge that God personally takes hold of the powers of nature and manipulates them according to His design to punish sinners. God has the power to create any kind of destruction at will. He is not bound to the particular peril present in a given area. Being a God of utter justice and consistency would require Him to punish the same offenses with the same punishments. But this is not so. The same offenses are dealt with by widely varying punishments always according to the destructive potential of the place where the offenders reside.

There is as great a disparity in the severity of the judgments as in their type. Some of the sinful suffer lingering deaths tortured with intense suffering, while others die quickly and mercifully. This is unequal enough, but observation shows that those who live lives of great and unrestrained wickedness usually suffer much less than the relatively innocent. Consider the situation in wartime. Behind the titanic struggles are the warmongers, men burning with the lust for power who have no regard for the cost others must pay in order that they achieve their desires. They are the truly guilty ones who deserve the greatest punishment of all.

Out on the farmlands, in the villages, up in the mountains and all over the land are the simple, honest folk whose lives are largely devoid of serious vices even though they cannot be called the children of God. When the battles ravage the land, they are the sufferers. Their sons are killed, their houses leveled, their businesses ruined, their livestock destroyed, and their bodies are starved, mutilated, lamed, and finally killed.

Of the two classes, the warmongers are the ones upon whom the desolations should justly fall, but they grow fat and rich from the merchandise of blood. Justice is truly turned around. If this is the decree and work of God, then He is a strange God indeed. But we know that He is not that kind of God. He is absolutely just and strictly impartial. He never excuses one nor favours another, while dealing harshly with someone else less deserving. If God were the one administering the punishments then the penalty would be exacted according to the offense. The very fact that it is not, is clear proof that these situations are not the result of God's handiwork.

The same unequal discrimination is found in the fate of the earth's large cities. To walk the streets of London in England, Frankfurt in Germany, Copenhagen in Denmark, Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York in the United States, is to behold sin under direct and willful cultivation, with study being given to the art of satisfying the most demanding desires of the flesh. Many, coming in from country areas to encounter these things for the first time, have been so appalled at the spectacle that they have felt that God should and would arise to wipe these cesspools from the face of the earth. But decade follows decade during which the corruption prospers. Seemingly it enjoys the patronage and protection of God Himself.

While this is going on, the judgments which one would expect to see fall on these cities, strike with merciless ferocity on other places where one would judge the state of iniquity to be mild by comparison.

The examples which might be cited are numerous. Here are two which are typical. In Guatemala, February 4, 1976, an earthquake which measured 7.5 on the Richter scale, caused extensive damage and huge loss of life. It was estimated that the dead numbered twenty-three thousand and the injured, seventy-five thousand.

On December 25, 1974, a cyclone ripped through the quiet tropical city of Darwin in North West Australia, in what has been described as the worst natural disaster ever to strike in Australia. Ninety percent of the city was leveled and fifty people lost their lives.

If an investigator was sent to find the most iniquitous city on earth, neither Darwin nor Guatemala would be first on the list. His thoughts would naturally turn to the cities listed above. Yet those places live on unscathed year after year while these quieter places are razed to the dust.

Why this disparity?

The answer is quite simple.

Firstly it must be obvious that it is not the work of God for it is far too partial and capricious to be His handiwork. If He was the destroyer then He would certainly visit the large cities filled with vice and sin before He touched the smaller ones where evil is not nurtured to anywhere near the same degree. He would administer the punishments with carefully calculated exactitude so that the guilty would receive their just desserts. Things would be very different from what they are.

The nature and location of these catastrophes are clear proof that they are not the work of God. They occur because of the presence, in scattered areas of the earth, of pockets of potential destruction seeded at the time of the flood. Those who live in such areas need the protecting care of God more than do others who live where there is a lesser threat. But, by their impenitent living they grieve away the shield of omnipotence thereby exposing themselves to the terrible storms or earthquakes, fires, floods, volcanic eruptions, or whatever else is poised to obliterate them. Therefore, they suffer the awful consequences of the withdrawal of God's presence, as others in more favourable places do not.

This does not infer that there are entirely safe places on earth for this is not true. As the withdrawal of God's presence becomes more extensive, the uncaged powers of nature are reaching out to waste areas previously untouched. As we draw nearer to the end, this will become universal.

There is no problem in understanding what God did at Sodom & Gomorrah if care is taken to consider all the implications and if the principles which govern God's behaviour are carefully kept in mind.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

"And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all fresh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die."

"Coal and oil Agencies in Final Destruction- Those majestic trees which God had caused to grow upon the earth, for the benefit of the inhabitants of the old world, and which they had used to form into idols, and to corrupt themselves with, God has reserved in the earth, in the shape of coal and oil to use as agencies in their final destruction. As He called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the Flood, as weapons from His arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years He will call forth the fires in the earth as His weapons which He has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the Flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the Flood." 3 Spiritual Gifts 87

Volcanoes are weapons from His arsenal just as tidal waves, tornadoes, hurricanes and earthquakes are. But we must always keep in mind the light that He has sent to us and that is that "I was shown that God's judgments would not come directly out from the Lord upon them but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection."

This was true for the antediluvians as well as for Sodom and Gomorrah. It is always the case for "The principles of His dealing with men are ever the same." G.C.343. That is why we must be careful how we interpret that language. If we interpret the language of the statement quoted above to mean that God is active by directly using these weapons to destroy the wicked, it would make Him an executioner of the sentence against transgression which He is not for it is written that "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression, but He leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves to reap that which they have sown." G.C.36.

In another statement we are told that God will punish the wicked with a rod. That doesn't sound very passive either. And this is what He will do after the close of probation and after the 1000 years. The Bible even says "with a rod of iron." Is not that rod also a weapon in His arsenal? It sure is. But we must let inspiration interpret that language for us. It simply means that "He will permit the destructive agencies of evil to bear sway to destroy." 4 B.C.1171. Nature out of control becomes a rod of destruction.

sky

"Everything in the world is in agitation. The signs of the times are ominous. Coming events cast their shadows before. The Spirit of God is withdrawing from the earth, and calamity follows calamity by sea and by land. There are tempests, earthquakes, fires, floods, murders of every grade. Who can read the future? Where is security? There is assurance in nothing that is human or earthly. Rapidly are men ranging themselves under the banner they have chosen. Restlessly are they waiting and watching the movements of their leaders. There are those who are waiting and watching and working for our Lord's appearing. Another class are falling into line under the generalship of the first great apostate. Few believe with heart and soul that we have a hell to shun and a heaven to win." D.A.636.

"When we seek to gain Heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress." F.W.94.

[skyblue888]

"I was shown that Satan would entangle and then destroy, if he could, the souls he had tempted. God will bear long, but there is a bound to His mercy, a line which marks His mercy and His justice. I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then, if those who have been the objects of His special care follow their own course, independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they chose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them." E.G. White, 14 .R. 3.1.

hch, how could this statement be misunderstood? The judgments of God DO NOT come directly out from the Lord upon sinners but in this way--they place themselves beyond His protection.

I don't know how the Lord Himself could have said it more plainly. A child can understand it. If sinners choose their own way after repeated warnings and we know how patient and loving the Lord is, then the Lord does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. This is what the Bible describes as being God's wrath.

When probation shall close, the Scriptures tell us that the wrath of God will be complete. (Rev.15:1) What does that mean? It means that at that time "Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent... Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old." The Great Controversy, p.614.

The language of the Bible in Revelation 16 is that the angels of God will be pouring out the vials of God's wrath upon the earth. But we now know what that language means, that God will say to them to no longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy.

Your comment that this gives the impression that God is dependent upon Satan to punish the wicked is tantamount to saying to God,

"Let me tell You how to teach Your message."

Is that what we really want to do, to tell the Lord how to teach His message?

"To those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power." R & H, Vol.4, p.335.

"Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is the living God. He will say to the angels, 'No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." Review & Herald, Vol.4, p.335; P.P.98; 8 T 50.

hch, are you saying that it is speculation on someone's part to believe what these statements are saying? To believe what these statements are saying with implicit faith is not speculation but faith which is accounted for righteousness.

If you own a copy of 1 Selected Messages, Vol.1, please turn to page 235, third paragraph, first sentence: "We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin."

I suggest you read the whole paragraph.

As to the destruction of Jerusalem, here is how the Testimonies explain the language you quoted from page 36 of the Great Controversy:

"The long-suffering of God toward Jerusalem only confirmed the Jews in their stubborn impenitence. In their hatred and cruelty toward the disciples of Jesus they rejected the last offer of mercy. Then God withdrew His protection from them and removed His restraining power from Satan and his angels, and the nation was left to the control of the leader she had chosen." The Great Controversy, p.28.

After the thousand years we read, "But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. The Great Controversy, p.672.

The Lord will not interfere as they turn upon Satan and his evil angels and the weapons they had been given ample time to prepare to take the City are now used to destroy Satan and his agents in deception. This gigantic battle will trigger a cataclysm by which all will be consumed in the end.

More later.

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"But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. The Great Controversy, p.672.

"Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit.' 'I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.'" Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. Great Controversy, 672.

"Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you, the most terrible of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, and defile your splendor. They shall throw you down into the Pit and you shall die the death of the slain in the midst of the seas. Will you still say before him who slays you, I am God? But you will be a man, and not God, in the hand of him sho slays you. You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of aliens; for I have spoken, says the Lord." Ezekiel 28:7-10.

"All the kings of the nations, all of them, sleep in glory, everyone in His own house. But you are cast out of your grave like an abominable branch, like the garment of those who are slain, thrust through with a sword, who do down to the stones of the pit, like a corpse trodden underfoot." Isaiah 14:18,19.

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