Story of Lot....

[tribeofjudah]

I reckon this is the right forum as this is not so much about "theological" talk:

Remember Lot and his plight out of Sodom? Well I'm kinda confused about his daughters......how many did he have total? The Bible says that he tried to offer his 2 "virgin" daughters to the evil men seeking to "know" his 2 male guests (angels)...Gen 19:7

Then when instructed to flee from the city, Lots spoke to his sons-in-law about leaving the city.

Gen 19:14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who had married his daughters, and said, "Get up, get out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city!" But to his sons-in-law he seemed to be joking.

My questions:

1. are both his daughters very newly married at this point and still virgins?

2. does this speak of 2 additional daughters that were already married?

The latter could be true, because uncle Abraham thought that there would be at least 10 Godly people to spare in the city.

Later, the 2 "saved" daughters do the unthinkable and have sexual relations with father Lot. This begins the races of the Moabites and Ammonites....Gen 19:37-38

What a "seedy" situation that was.....

[Dr. Rich]

Good post. The question brings up many different issues.

1. Can Angels have sex and are they either male or female?

2. Did the married daughter's of Lot get out of the city?

3. Did the two daughter's of Lot who got him drunk to have sex with him because Lot lost his wife, or maybe they thought it was the end of the world and Lot was the only man alive?

4. Did Lot take wine, beer or whisky with him when he left Sodom?

[John317]

1. Can Angels have sex and are they either male or female?

No. Jesus said that at the resurrection people won't marry or give in marriage but they will be like the angels. There's no Bible evidence that God made angels as male and female or so that they could reproduce.

Matthew 22:30

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor be given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

He could say this about people because angels don't marry (have conjugal relations).

[phkrause]

No. Jesus said that at the resurrection people won't marry or give in marriage but they will be like the angels. There's no Bible evidence that God made angels as male and female or so that they could reproduce.

Matthew 22:30

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor be given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

He could say this about people because angels don't marry (have conjugal relations).

Excellent points John

[tribeofjudah]

I'm not confused about Angels....I KNOW they don't pro-create.

I simply wanted to know about additional daughters of Lot.

I'm not at all confused about Angels...nope, not a chance.

[Dr. Rich]

I don't disagree with you John, but isn't there some evidence that angels had sex with the women of mankind as found in Gen. 6:4?

And yes, of course Lot did NOT offer his virgin daughters to the angels! But why didn't the angels make the men go their way without having Lot offering his daughters to them? And why didn't the men take Lot up on his offer? Were they ugly? Or were the men totally 'queer'?

[tribeofjudah]

I don't disagree with you John, but isn't there some evidence that angels had sex with the women of mankind as found in Gen. 6:4?

And yes, of course Lot did NOT offer his virgin daughters to the angels! But why didn't the angels make the men go their way without having Lot offering his daughters to them? And why didn't the men take Lot up on his offer? Were they ugly? Or were the men totally 'queer'?

No...the sons of God simply means: those who were loyal to God and followed the Spirit

daughters of men simply means: those who did not know God and followed their human will

It's easy to be confused. I started an thread a while back about "who were the nephalims"

[tribeofjudah]

I don't disagree with you John, but isn't there some evidence that angels had sex with the women of mankind as found in Gen. 6:4?

And yes, of course Lot did NOT offer his virgin daughters to the angels! But why didn't the angels make the men go their way without having Lot offering his daughters to them? And why didn't the men take Lot up on his offer? Were they ugly? Or were the men totally 'queer'?

I doubt they were ugly. The wicked men beating on the door were homosexuals, thus the terms "sodomy" from Sodom and Gommorah.

[John317]

I don't disagree with you John, but isn't there some evidence that angels had sex with the women of mankind as found in Gen. 6:4?

There are those who believe Gen. 6: 4 refers to angels, but for very good reasons Seventh-day Adventists and many other Christians don't believe that's what the Bible is saying in those verses.

Do you honestly believe that God put sex/reproductive organs on angels? Do they urinate and make sperm? In order for angels to produce progeny with humans, they would need to be in the same species or kind as humans. But they aren't. Angels are a completely different kind of creature, and it makes no sense to think that God made them so they can have sex with humans and produce children. That is the stuff of mythology and legends.

If angels can mate with women and have children with them, why would Christ use angels as a comparison to teach that people won't have sexual relations at the resurrection? If angels have sexual relations, such an illustration would be completely untrue and meaningless.

[John317]

... why didn't the men take Lot up on his offer? Were they ugly? Or were the men totally 'queer'?

I suspect the men were what we today would call bisexuals. There were many such men in the ancient societies. Of course they didn't call them by that name.

But the biblical narrrative shows that there was much more going on than mere sexual desire.

Those men were not "gay" in the modern sense of that word. Very few gay men would even think of raping other males. That is simply not their "bag." In prison, straight men have nothing to fear from gay men. But they do have to fear heterosexuals who use sex for the purpose of domination. That is what I see going on in the story of the angels in Sodom. They are angry with Lot, who is a foreigner and who the men consider an "outsider," not one of themselves. They appear to me to be out to humiliate him by humiliating his guests. They are not interested in normal sex. They are out to violate and outrage Lot's moral values.

[Tom Wetmore]

...The wicked men beating on the door were homosexuals, thus the terms "sodomy" from Sodom and Gommorah.

The word "sodomy" does not just mean only homosexual sexual activity. A man can sodomize a women. A women can sodomize an animal.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines it as "Any of various forms of sexual intercourse held to be unnatural or abnormal, especially anal intercourse or bestiality."

John317 is correct in explaining that this was not gay sex as we understand it today. In addition to the act being a means of domination, the ancient pagans believed this was a way to rob a person of their vital life force and much more.

For a detailed explanation read http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Sodomy_law .

[tribeofjudah]

I agree with Tom and John. Bottom line is these evil men were prompted by their leader, the devil/satan.

[ClubV12]

Gay style relations were very common in history and remain so today in places you don't normally associate it with. Many of those fierce warriors known as the Spartans, were gay! It was encouraged by that society. Men who fight and die together for a cause are more apt to fight and die for someone they love, not so much about sex, but truly love. It was a means of bonding the army together.

In modern warfare we get a glimpse of that philosophy as well. In a military unit, during a battle, it's not about fighting for God and country, it's about fighting for and with you buddy. Unit cohesion, you give your life for your unit, for your companions in the fox hole with you. If you survive, THEN, it's about God and country.

There is a LOT of gay sex in Ahfganistan among the men, while rape of women is relatively rare (prisoners, slaves, conquored women, married women being the exceptions). The men don't even consider it abnormal, it's just the way it is. There is a high percentage of sexually transmitted disease among the men. The military is trying to educate the male population about the problem, use of condems, that sort of thing. Men are shocked when it is suggested they should have sex with women, they would never do such a despicable thing! This is not gay sex as we think of gay in the USA, it's just a common life style.

I suspect it was also very common in biblical times and that is why the bible has much to say on the subject.

[tribeofjudah]

An yet it is still an ABOMINATION unto the Lord.

Lev. 20:13

God loves the sinner and HATES the sin.

[John317]

.

There is a LOT of gay sex in Ahfganistan among the men, while rape of women is relatively rare (prisoners, slaves, conquored women, married women being the exceptions). The men don't even consider it abnormal, it's just the way it is. There is a high percentage of sexually transmitted disease among the men. The military is trying to educate the male population about the problem, use of condems, that sort of thing. Men are shocked when it is suggested they should have sex with women, they would never do such a despicable thing! This is not gay sex as we think of gay in the USA, it's just a common life style.

I suspect it was also very common in biblical times and that is why the bible has much to say on the subject.

Yes, I know this to be true about Afghanistan. It seems very strange to me considering that it takes place even among people who claim to believe strongly in the Koran, which, like the Bible, condemns homosexuality. But during the war against the USSR, it was very common for officers and other soldiers to have their "boys," which were somewhat like "camp followers." Yet as these boys grew to adulthood, they would become heterosexual and get married to a woman. Somewhat the same thing took place in ancient Greece. As you say, it is not "gay sex" as we Americans think of it. Something like this actually happens sometimes in prison and even in the US military (during WWII, Korea, and Vietnam).

TribeofJudah is right that it is still an abomination to the Lord.

[tribeofjudah]

Just some thoughts:

The wicked men of Sodom were displaying "power" and "domination".

Rape in any form is a display of power and domination.

Soldiers in Afghanistan (the example above and the like) may/can also be a display of power/domination.

God has given and shown us His love and it need not be changed or diluted or modified.

God's original design was perfect until sin reared it's ugly head.....

Rom 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

Rom 1:27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

[John317]

Rape in any form is a display of power and domination.

Yes, it is Satan's way of using one of God's beautiful gifts to humanity, turning it into a powerful instrument of evil and even of torture and death.

We often hear in the news of men who violently and cruelly rape even 70-90 year old women. Obviously this was not because of sexual desire. Age and physical appearances are irrelevent to such men. They're consumed with a sadistic need to control, dominate and hurt.

Here in California, we had the infamous case of the Night Stalker, Richard Rimerez, a devil worshpper, who terrorized the whole state in the 1980s while he raped and murdered women of all ages, including those in their 80s.

The Night Stalker gets so many letters from women seeking a relationship that he can't even read them all. They deliver them to him by the thousands from all over the world.

One man I knew told me that he got the most responses to a newpaper ad for sex when he let it be known he was a dog-catcher in search of a victim.

The truth is that modern society-- if a person has the stomach to plumb its depths-- makes Sodom and Gomorrah look like they weren't taught how to sin properly. Someone said that if Christ doesn't come soon, God will have to offer the people of Sodom an apology, and I do believe that time is already passed.

[doug yowell]

I don't completely buy into the contemporary idea that rape is all about power. The sexual nature of the human male is a powerful force for creating all kinds of abuses. The place of sexual enjoyment for men is greatly misunderstood and therefore greatly abused. When women exploit this weakness they can also gain power,as the stories in the Bible attempt to portray so many times.I believe that rape in most cases is an attempt to satisfy sexual appetite gone wild in whatever form is deemed necessary.

[Dr. Rich]

Thanks John, the last paragraph said it all. Thanks all for your great replies. But as to the Nephilm, it says that they were on the earth before the flood and afterwords too, so who's boat did they use to survive? That is, IF they are merely humans? The book of Enoch is evidence that they were indeed the fallen angels that someway or how they 'mated' with the human women and this is what the Nephilm were.

Numbers 13:33 tell us that the Nephilm were the sons of Anak who the spies saw in the land of Canaan. They were also known as the "Anakkie" or the 'gods' of the land. There were a mixture of the power of the angels and of humans. ??? Of course I don't know and you probaby don't either, but for some reason the first of the ten commandments said that we should NOT have any other god other than the God of Creation for our God. These other gods were all over the place before and during the time Jesus was on this earth, but they were destroyed and placed into the abyss when Jesus went back to heaven. (my educated opinion only)

Of course Goliath was also one of these gods.

[Guest]

(my educated opinion only)

Right...

How much money do you have to put with that to get a Pepsi?

[John317]

I don't completely buy into the contemporary idea that rape is all about power. The sexual nature of the human male is a powerful force for creating all kinds of abuses. The place of sexual enjoyment for men is greatly misunderstood and therefore greatly abused. When women exploit this weakness they can also gain power,as the stories in the Bible attempt to portray so many times.I believe that rape in most cases is an attempt to satisfy sexual appetite gone wild in whatever form is deemed necessary.

I agree with you. I am not saying that all rapes are motivated the same way. But despite their motivation, we know that sin and evil are its ultimate cause. Even men who rape pretty girls are motivated partly by a sense of power and the excitement of being able to dominate and have their will with them.

While in the military in the summer of '69, I was with 4 of my fellow soldiers while they raped a 15 year old girl all night long. Another friend of mine and I returned to the hotel in El Paso after a night of visitng bars in Juarez to find our other friends raping this girl. She was a girl friend of another soldier who invited her to the party in the room I rented at the McCoy Hotel and then left her with the 4 guys. It took over an hour of telling these guys to stop before they actually quit (against their wills), and then my friend and I got her into the shower and put her to bed. The guys had gotten her drunk, and while the men were raping her, she was crying and telling them she needed to go "potty," and my "friend" told her it was Ok, "I have your potty right here."

One of the guys told me "this is what women are made for," and I said, "Yes, but they have a right to decide who they're going to do it with," and the guys were really angry at me and at my close friend for telling them they needed to stop. One of them squirted katship on my friend's clothes and in his face.

When I got to Germany, three of my "friends" in the army made me have to fight my way out of being forced to have sex with them. This happened on more than one ocassion. I could not report them because if I had, they would have told about my relations with another soldier in the unit, and this would have resulted in my getting a bad discharge along with my friend.

While practicing homosexuality, I was subjected to two rapes, one at gun point by a man who later killed someone. One of the rapists was from Saudi Arabia and the other was a black man from Cuba. He was known as "Cuban boy" and served 7 years in prison for murder (pled guilty to man-slaughteer), in 1983.