Ellen White, snails and Oysters...

[Stan]

Shortly after I became an Adventist, I came across some anti-adventist literature that talked about EGW eating snails. That bothered me. So I spoke with Elder R Coon from the White Estate, this was at a meeting we were both at in Florida.

This is what he said, He was not aware of her purchasing snails but the author of the book I was reading more than likely meant oysters.

Well that was not a whole lot better.

The he showed me a clipping that he carried around showing that she did ask her daughter-in-law or housekeeper, to pick up some good oysters. What's up with that???

The he showed me a clipping from a Q&A from the RH that year, and Uriah Smith was asked if Oysters were clean or unclean. His answer was CLEAN, but went on to say that many are beginning to think they are unclean. I found that interesting. A while after most adventist viewed them as unclean. Buddist vegetarians, I have been told view oysters as the vegetable of the ocean.

Do we have anything similar today?

In North America, Adventist often view ducks as clean. Out side of North America Adventist view them as unclean. Biblical, there is little doubt to what they are.

Just a piece of trivia to ponder...

[NormF]

Stan wrote:

Quote:

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In North America, Adventist

often view ducks as clean. Outside of North America, Adventist

view them as unclean. Biblical[ly], there is little doubt [as] to what they are.

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Biblically little doubt ...?

Er, sorta ... more like it kinda depends, I think.

Here's what some modern, observant, Orthodox Jews say on the matter of ducks. I figure they probably have as tight a take on the subject of what constitutes "clean" (kosher) as anyone anywhere. This is from the Ahavat Israel website -

http://www.ahavat-israel.com/ahavat/torat/treif.asp

• Ouf Tamey - non-kosher fowl:

  The Torah similarly differentiates between kosher and non-kosher fowl. Unlike animals, the Torah gives no signs to differentiate between kosher and non-kosher fowl. The Torah merely lists twenty-four types of forbidden fowl; all other fowl are assumed to be kosher. The Talmud does provide signs to identify non-kosher fowl. However, since we lack the experience to apply these rules, we are permitted to eat only those fowl traditionally accepted as kosher. All variations of the common chicken are accepted as kosher. Similarly, common domestic ducks, geeses and doves are considered kosher. Some communities have a tradition that the quail is a kosher fowl. With the appearance of turkeys, Rabbis questioned whether a reliable tradition exists about their kashrut. Common custom today accepts turkeys as kosher fowl. There is no definitive tradition about the status of a pheasant, peacock, guinea hen, partridge, swan, or certain species of wild ducks, geese, pigeons and doves; therefore, they should not be eaten. The eggs of any non-Kosher fowl are also forbidden to be eaten.

So if you are an "observant" Adventist, I guess you can call domestic duck clean. Of course, if you are particularly vigilant, they need to have been slaughtered ala kosher, too. But stay away from the mallards 'n' pintails, et al.

On the other hand, many Adventists who are careful to avoid unclean foods nevertheless do paint with broader strokes, and therefore they don't go to quite the lengths these Jewish brethren do.

So, is it clearer than it was? Kinda depends.

Regards,

Norm

[Bravus]

Just a taste judgement, but neither snails nor oysters are near the top of my list when it comes to culinary temptations... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Amelia]

It has always been my opinion and understanding that any animal of land or sea, that was a scavenger or carrion eater, was not clean.

[Gregory Matthews]

Amelia, would you then say that a chicken is unclean?

[NormF]

Stan also noted that years ago, during EGW's time:

Quote:

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Uriah Smith was asked if Oysters were clean or unclean. His answer was CLEAN.

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I wonder where Smith got that one?

Here's a fellow in our time (last year) who seems to have made the same mistake:

Quote:

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At age 70, oyster distributor Leroy "Lee Lee" Chauvin has learned something new: It's never kosher to sell "kosher oysters."

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Chauvin is proud of a process he developed to purify his oysters. He knew a kosher diet was considered pure and clean, and he believed the description fit his oysters perfectly. In September, he began advertising his shellfish with signs saying they were "Certified Kosher."

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But Chauvin has since learned the term means something more in Judaism. He learned that oysters, by definition, cannot be kosher.

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The article is on a website called OK Kosher Certification.

It went on to, among other things, quote a statement to the contrary from Rabbi Yisroel Shiff, of Beth Israel Congregation in New Orleans.

Quote:

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"It's absurd ... I can't even say that it's even misleading anyone, because everyone already knows that oysters are not kosher."

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The Committee concluded their article with this:

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Chauvin said he's planning to replace "kosher" on his signs.

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"I'll take the word 'kosher' off, and certify the oysters as something else," he said. "I just don't know what the new word is yet. The Lord hasn't sent that to me yet."

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You can read the whole article on this website of the Committee for the Advancement of Torah at -

http://www.okkosher.com/Content.asp?ID=196

I'd say this one was a real definite, "Nah, I don't think so."

Regards,

Norm

[Stan]

hmmm

What about all the calcium supplements that use oyster shells, even some of the Adventist 'milk' like "Better than Milk" did before we protested.

[Nan]

Ground up oyster shells - assuming cleaned first - would not contain the organic impurities we are concerned about in oyster flesh.

Until recent times a lot of the insulin diabetics used was derived from pigs (as far as I know, recombinant techniques are now used to make "human"like insulin these days). We did not go out on a crusade against the insulin.

Guess is all depends what we are willing to accept. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Like Bravus oysters and snails have never been a great temptation for me. I have a friend who categorically dumps prawns, shellfish etc into the category of "cockroaches of the sea". Not the biggest turnon dietwise <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

[cricket]

What about "spare parts" for humans that come from pigs?

[Stan]

The health message in the Bible, SOP is about being heathier, is having a pig valve in your heart is healtier then...... ?

Or is that too radical of a thought?

[cricket]

Nope. Not too radical. I agree. Just wanted to hear someone else say it, too!

[NormF]

While we're at it, on the snail part of Stan's post, the Kosher Consumer has listed this Kosher Alert:

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"Glucosamine" is made from snails & or shrimp, even those that have a kosher certification should be NOT be consumed.

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http://www.kosherconsumer.org/alerts.htm

It does get tricky after awhile, doesn't it?

I believe Peter was on the right track when he asked, "Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?" Acts 15:10, NIV. Recall that the specific question under discussion was whether the Gentiles should be "required to obey the law of Moses," Acts 15:5.

The conclusion of the Jerusalem Council was, "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality." Immediately following that, they finished by stating, "You will do well to avoid these things." Acts 15:28,29.

In other words, they couldn't quite get themselves to completely let go of their Jewish heritage, but they sure did parse it down and then pick and choose pretty good. And then, realizing the soft sand of where they were standing, they signed off this written pronouncement of their edict by ruefully noting that, well, it would be a good idea to "avoid" these things of Jewishness. That's not entirely a, "do as we say or God will condemn you if don't get it exactly right," kind of thing where I come from.

Of course, I'm a Philistine heathen anyway.

Regards,

Norm

[Nan]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

The health message in the Bible, SOP is about being heathier, is having a pig valve in your heart is healtier then...... ?

Or is that too radical of thoughts?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Probably healthier than dying because your own valve was nonfunctional.

[Amelia]

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Amelia, would you then say that a chicken is unclean?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

No. Because chickens are naturally insect/plant eaters. Humans made them scavengers by feeding them scraps from the kitchen.

[NormF]

"What about oyster shells?" ...

In their article on kosher vitamins, KosherConsumer.org says this:

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It is very common to use many non-kosher animal parts such as Taurine (an extract of ox-bile or shark blood) used in all baby formulas. A large Kosher certifier wrongfully lists "TAURINE" as a group 1=not requiring kosher certification. Other animal parts commonly used are the glandular parts, thyroid, pancreas, cartilage & shellfish etc. In order to properly kosher certify health foods, vitamins, health supplements and especially natural products one must be very astute & knowledgeable in food chemistry. There are some certifiers that do not realize the complexity involved in certifying these types of products. One should be very cautious about the qualifications and standards of the kosher certifier.

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Sounds like a no-no to me. More to come as I find it.

Regards,

Norm

[Amelia]

FDA To Improve Labeling Of Insect-Derived Food Coloring

Food colorings that cause severe allergic reactions should be disclosed clearly on labels or possibly banned, a national health-advocacy group is telling the Food and Drug Administration.

The colorings come in two forms, cochineal extract or carmine. Both are derived from female cochineal beetles, which are raised in Peru, the Canary Islands, and elsewhere. They provide a pink, red, or purple color to foods ranging from ice cream and yogurt to fruit drinks and the aperitif Campari, as well as to pharmaceuticals and cosmetics.

In the past several years, doctors in Michigan, Switzerland, and France have proven that the colorings can cause allergic reactions, including sneezing, asthma, and anaphylactic shock. The prevalence of allergic reactions is not known. The Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI), a nonprofit organization based in Washington, recently petitioned the FDA to either revoke approval of the colorings or require that they be clearly labeled by name.

Currently, they may be declared on labels as "artificial color" or "color added." "A coloring that can cause anaphylactic shock in sensitive individuals should be required to be listed specifically on labels," said Dr. James Baldwin, clinical assistant professor at the University of Michigan School of Medicine.

Michael F. Jacobson, Ph.D., executive director of CSPI, said, "No one should have to experience a life-threatening anaphylactic reaction just because they ate an artificially colored food. Food manufacturers should switch to other colorings." Jacobson added, "Americans shouldn't have to repeat their experience with sulfite preservatives, which also caused anaphylactic reactions. Fifteen years ago, consumers died while the FDA delayed acting on CSPI's petition to ban dangerous uses of sulfites." The FDA ultimately banned the most dangerous uses of sulfites and set strict limits on other uses. Many vegetarians, Jews, and others who observe dietary restrictions have been surprised to discover that a coloring derived from insects is used in food.

To protect those consumers, CSPI urged the FDA, if it didn't ban carmine and cochineal extract, to require that labels indicate that the colorings are derived from insects. CSPI recommended that ingredient lists declare: "Artificial color (carmine/cochineal extract (insect-based)."

CSPI urged allergists who have had patients allergic to carmine or cochineal extract to call its Carmine Allergy Clearinghouse at 1-888-653-7872.

[NormF]

I did find more about oyster shells, and pig heart valves ...

I asked the good folk at KashrusMagazine.org,

• 1. What is the status of calcium mineral tablets intended for human consumption that use ground oyster shells as their source? Or of chickens or their eggs from flocks that are fed ground oyster shells as a dietary supplement?

  2. There are medical procedures in which the heart valve of a pig is used in transplant procedures to replace a person's defective heart valve. What becomes of that person's "kashrus" status (if I'm not misusing the word) in such a case?

Rabbi Yosef Wikler, Editor, Kashrus Magazine, replied,

Quote:

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Shells are questionable as to whether they would be deemed non-kosher. In a pharmaceutical there would be no problem. In a supplement we would recommend kosher-only, of which some exist, using alternative sources for the mineral.

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Using a pig in a Jew does not effect his status as a proper Jew.

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... and about oyster shells in chicken feed,

Quote:

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No problem whatsoever

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So, there you have it.

Regards,

Norm

[NormF]

Amelia said, she thought chickens should be considered clean, "Because chickens are naturally insect/plant eaters. Humans made them scavengers by feeding them scraps from the kitchen."

By contrast, however, chickens, along with the domestic varieties of ducks, geese, pigeons, doves, and to a lesser degree quail are accepted by Ahavat Israel as kosher, while wild varieties are lumped together with other wild birds - "pheasant, peacock, guinea hen, partridge, swan, or certain species of wild ducks, geese, pigeons and doves" - as being non-kosher (see my post above, #163993). By implication, that would include "natural" varieties of chickens, I'd think.

Go figure?!?!

Regards,

Norm

[Gregory Matthews]

I consider any bird that naurally feeds by picking up insects, and other material from off of the ground to be a scavenger.

[Gregory Matthews]

On keeping Kosher:

There are a number of sects within Judiasm. These have differing definations of what it means to be Kosher.

[Bravus]

Not aimed at anyone here, but checking the contents of our calcium supplement pills for kosher reminded me of this text:

Matthew 23:23 ...for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

[jasd]

Quick Reply:

Tandem that:

1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: v5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. v6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ,…

The Bible records Jesus giving thanks nine times at meals.

Sorry, Stan, --the sentence structure is a bit awkward. Mebbe the following are better...

/ The Bible records Jesus giving thanks nine times, --at meals.

/ The Bible records Jesus giving thanks at meals --nine times.

(Well, not that much better, eh?)

/ The Bible records, nine times, Jesus giving thanks at meals.

/ There are nine passages that record Jesus giving thanks before eating. (that's better)

Haste is the slip twixt tongue and the lip. ;-)

[Stan]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

The Bible records Jesus giving thanks nine times at meals.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Interesting to know that, i had missed that. Where is that at

Thanks

[GreatLakesGramma]

What difference does it make what the orthodox Jews consider kosher? They keep kosher laws for purely religious reasons, because they think it will imperil their standing with God if they don't keep the letter of the law in every detail.

We know that God gave these laws for our health, not as rules to prove our devotion. Rather than look up the interpretation of those who are seeking their own righteousness, we should investigate the principles behind the laws and apply them to the situation.

[Guest]

Matt 15

"36": And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.

Matt 26

"27": And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

Mark 8

"6": And he commanded the people to sit down on the ground: and he took the seven loaves, and gave thanks, and brake, and gave to his disciples to set before them; and they did set them before the people.

Mark 14

"23": And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.

Luke 22

"17": And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

"18": For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

"19": And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

John 6

"11": And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.

"23": (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)

Maybe this//