Frustrated with the King of the North

[ClubV12]

Like I expect to get a simple answer here, or anywhere, I think the question is either to controversial or to complicated for a direct answer! Not sure which...

Most seem to accept the idea that the "King" is symbolic, the beast, the papacy. Some think it's literal, like Turkey or some other country located in the North.

Some think it's BOTH!!! With the papacy owning, controlling, influencing with great power some country or peoples in the North.

James White seemed to lean toward a symbolic answer. Uriah Smith seemed to think it was a literal nation.

Can we use the King of the South (who ever that is) to get a clue to verify the King of the North?

...I think my head is going to explode...

[whatisthis]

Was the King of the South Egypt?

[whatisthis]

Did James White lean toward the King of the North being Turkey? I'm not sure. Don't let your head explode, study and pray. If God laid this on your heart you will find an answer at the right time.

[John317]

The identity of the king of the south changes according to which power Satan is using to fight against Christ and His people. The main point to remember about the king of the south is that this power has the characteristics of Egypt during the Exodus when the king said, "Who is Jehovah that I should listen to Him?" It's primary characteristic is that of denial of God's existence. We find this not only in Egypt but in France during the 1790s, and in the USSR and its eastern block allies from 1917 to 1990.

The first king of the south was Ptolemy I Soter of Egypt, south of Israel.

The original king of the north was Seleucas I and referred to the Seleucus territory, Syria, located north of Israel.

These were the historical kings of the south and the north. Israel was caught in the middle between these two enemies.

[John317]

Yes, Egypt was the king of the south.

Here is A.T. Jones on what was once known among us as "the Eastern question:" (i.e., Turkey):

Quote:

After stating how Alexander's dominion should thus be divided into its four parts, the angel turns his attention to the two kingdoms,-"the king of the south" and "the king of the north." And in verses 5 to 14 he treats solely of the succession of principal events occurring between these two powers. At verse 14 the Roman power-"the children of robbers," margin-enters the field and occupies the angel's attention for a long time. Finally, in verse 40, he comes to speak of "the time of the end," and again mentions "the king of the south" and "the king of the north." The territories of the northern and of the southern division of Alexander's dominion remain respectively the kingdoms of the north and the south unto the end, and from beginning to end, whatever powers might occupy these respective territories, would be the kings of the north and of the south. The power therefore which, at the time of the end, occupies the territory of Thrace and Bithynia, originally held by Lysimachus, will be the king of the north as certainly as was the power of Lysimachus itself. And as Constantinople is the center of the territory originally held by Lysimachus, the first "king of the north," and as the power (Turkey) that now reigns in Constantinople holds the identical territory held by Lysimachus himself, it is plain enough that this power is "the king of the north" of the last verses of the eleventh chapter of Daniel, and of our own day. {1896 ATJ, EQ 11.1}

THE KING OF THE NORTH AND HIS END

In the forty-fourth verse the angel says of this king of the north,-the Turkish power,-"Tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many." This was accomplished in the Crimean War, when Russia from the north and east warred against the Ottoman Empire, and the latter was saved only by the support and power of Great Britain and other allies. {1896 ATJ, EQ 11.2}

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And now the last verse of Daniel ii tells of the two events that all Europe is constantly expecting to see, and which are certain soon to take place, namely, the expulsion of the Turkish power from Constantinople and the wiping out of the Ottoman Empire. These are the words of the angel as to this looked-for event, "And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. {1896 ATJ, EQ 12.1}

Constantinople itself is "between the seas." But this does not meet the word of the angel. No, but he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas "in the glorious holy mountain." This can be no other place than Jerusalem; even now Jerusalem is called in the Turkish and Arabic "The Holy." It is certain, therefore, that the seat of the Ottoman power will be removed from Constantinople, and will finally be planted in Jerusalem, and then it is just as certain that power comes to an end. {1896 ATJ, EQ 12.2}

WHEN HE COMES TO HIS END

Yet this is not all. The angel continues: "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time; and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." Dan. 12:1, 2. {1896 ATJ, EQ 12.3}

Whether the Turkish power shall leave Constantinople, and when; whether it shall be wiped out, and, if so, when,-these are great and interesting questions, and multitudes are anxiously studying them. But of far greater consequence is the question, What will happen when these things are accomplished? {1896 ATJ, EQ 12.4}

The Word of God is that "at that time" there shall be such a time of trouble upon the earth as never was since there has been a nation. This we have seen by positive proofs is the very thing which the great nations are dreading; and against this universal woe of world-wide war and tumult the great powers are holding the Ottoman power as long as possible as a bulwark, knowing that, when this bulwark shall have been

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broken down, the appalling torrent must spread over all. In this matter the Word of God and the word of the great powers of the world are in exact and perfect accord. {1896 ATJ, EQ 12.5}

Who is ready for this "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation"? Who? Whoever on the earth is not ready for the spreading over all nations of such a time of trouble as never was since there was a nation-whoever on earth is not ready for this is not ready for the wiping out of the Ottoman power. Therefore, instead of churches and pulpits and religious papers calling for war, and urging the wiping of the Turkish power off the earth, they would better, far better, be preaching the gospel of peace, which they profess, and which they are so basely perverting, and by the sincere preaching of the gospel of peace be preparing to stand in peace and quietness in God when this time of trouble shall break upon the world at the time of the ending of the Ottoman Empire. Who is doing this work? Who is ready for the time of trouble? {1896 ATJ, EQ 13.1}

For this is not simply a time of great trouble by war amongst the nations. It is a time of trouble caused also by the judgments of God upon the earth, followed quickly by His coming, the resurrection of the dead, and the end of all things. This phase of the question is emphasized by the third portion of Scripture which treats of the Ottoman power. The sixteenth chapter of Revelation contains a record of the seven last plagues, in which "is filled up the wrath of God," to be poured upon the earth. {1896 ATJ, EQ 13.2}

[ClubV12]

Ah,,, it's not ONE King, it's a series of Kings over time. The issue contains both literal and symbolic "Kings".

So, it would seem the answer would be found in a modern King of the North (or South), that is applicable to our time frame. This King would be both literal and symbolic (the papacy) in nature.

I haven't found anything that indicates James White suggested any particular country or King, his thinking seems to be symbolic, the papacy in general. Unlike Uriah Smith, who was looking for a real physical country for the answer.

I suspect both men were correct in their thinking for that time frame, not agreeing on the details, but both on the right track. Much like we see today, not everyone of our leaders, learned though they be, agree on every point. I'm beginning to understand that concept now. It was certainly a cause of confusion for awhile. Like, if the leaders can't even agree on this stuff, perhaps the foundation is not as solid as I thought? Maybe I need to look into this myself, but man some of this stuff is WAY to deep for me to wrap my head around.

[Gus Foster]

modern Adventist thinking according to recent presentations is the south represents Islam and the north NATO, steered by US--kinda what we see developing in N Africa and Middle East--

It still seems to me a battle over rights to do in God's people---

the final conflict- all will be against commandment keepers--whose part in all this is to get and stay as close to our Lord and Savior as we can be!!!!!!!!!!

[skyblue888]

In Old Testament times we are talking about geographical locations. So we have Egypt who was the king of the South and Babylon who was the king of the north.

In 1798, we can no longer use the geographical method of interpretation. We are using the Gospel method and the king of the North is now the papacy and the king of the south atheistic France.

The king of the north--the papacy--will come to his end with no one to help him at the time of the fifth plague. As the wicked are about to slay the saints, thick darkness falls upon the earth and they lose sight of them. Then they see God's rainbow spanning the heavens hovering over the people of God. Then the wicked see that they have been deceived and they fall at the feet of the saints acknowledging that God has loved them. They rise upon their feet and begin to accuse one another but all agree to put the blame on the ministers and leading men who had preached smooth things to them. They fall upon them with the fury of demons and there is strife and bloodshed everywhere. This is the sixth plague, the drying up of the River Euphrates, the symbolic name for the waters upon which the king of the north, the papacy, sits.

In Revelation 17:15 we are told that the waters upon which the papacy sits represents peoples, nations, multitudes. But now these peoples, nations, multitudes are turning against the papacy. They not only withdraw their support but they turn upon her and will destroy her with fire.

This is how the king of the north of Daniel 11:40,45 will come to his end with no one to help him just as Satan who is the true king of the north will come to his end when the wicked of all ages shall turn upon him and his evil angels with the fury of demons after the 1,000 years. He too will come to his end with no one to help him for in both cases God will not interfere.

sky

Note: Christ is the true king of the north but Satan is the counterfeit king of the north, for he said, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High." Isaiah 14:13.

Lucifer aspired to take the place of Christ between God and the creatures. "He shall plant the tabernacles of His palaces between the seas and the glorious Holy Mountain." Dan.11:45.

[skyblue888]

"He shall plant the tabernacles of his palaces between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." Daniel 11:45.

The true rendering is not "between the seas IN the glorious holy mountain," but "between the seas AND the glorious holy mountain" as the following statement will show:

"In this world Satan has set up a kingdom of darkness, of which he, the leader in guilt, is prince. He desired to usurp the throne of God. Failing in this, he has worked in darkness, in crookedness, in deception, to usurp his place in the hearts of men. He has set up his throne between God and man, to appropriate the adoration that belongs to God alone." E.G. White, 6 B.C.1119 (7a, p.343)

Notice the last sentence, "He has set up his throne between God (the glorious holy mountain where God's throne is) and man (the seas or the waters where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues, as stated in Rev.17:15)

This has always been Satan's plan, to take the place of Christ between God and man.

At the time of the fifth plague, the seas, or the waters upon which the harlots sits for support, will be dried up. The symbolic name fore these waters is Euphrates. Rev.16:12. Then there will be none to help and Babylon the Great will fall.

As the people of all nations realize that they have been deceived, they will not only withdraw their support from Babylon the Great but they will turn upon the false shepherds and they will hate the harlot and make her desolate. Rev.17:16.

sky