NO EGW Compilations?

[ClubV12]

I heard a sermon by a visiting PhD person, layman, to our church last sabbath. The person praised the SPO and then declared ALL compilations of EGW books and such to be of no value. They should literally be thrown out. I almost got up and walked out of the church in the middle of that sermon.

While the "source" is always preferred, the source is not always available, which is one reason compilations have their place. When you are searching a particular subject for EGW quotes or references, what you are doing is assembling your own personal "compilation". We do the same thing with the bible, take a verse here and there and assemble (compile) it to get a better picture.

The lay person went on to say the EGW compilations were assembled by, quote, "old white haired men". Denigrating the work of the trustees of the EG White Estate, which was comissioned to do their work by EGW's will.

While the merits of complilation vs source material could be debated, like here in this forum. From the PULPIT? On Sabbath? Bringing controversy to the people? I was deeply ashamed to hear such trash talking... More ashamed to find that many members thought it was a good message!

[Woody]

When you really look at it ... compilations of EGW do more harm than good because you have no idea what the context is and what she is talking about.

Sorry. I have to agree with your preacher.

[ClubV12]

More harm than good? Yeah, I heard that excuse a lot during discussions after church on the subject. It doesn't hold water, often repeated, but it doesn't hold water.

The same could be said of bible quotes, which are OFTEN taken out of context. And yet, sometimes there is no context required, the quote, or scripture, stands perfectly on it's own. When making such a claim, "more harm than good" I'm afraid I would have to ask "what chapter and verse would that be" that "needs context"?

"We should study nature", no context required, it's very plain. We shouldn't buy bicycles, all though I'm not sure THAT quote even makes it into a generally accepted compilation. Never the less, it could stand on it's own TODAY, no deep context is required. Are you buying a $5,000 carbon fiber bike? You might want to think twice! EGW's advice could well apply to YOU in that case, "don't buy a bicycle."

If thy eye offend thee, cut it out. Ya might need some context there, or maybe not, seems fairly plain!

[Woody]

ClubV ... the main problem is with the conservatives who shove Ellen White down people's throats with - out of context quotes. They sound legit. But they only lead to destruction. Sure if one gets a degree from Andrews in Ellen White studies ... one might be able to find the truth that she might have intended. But then will the truth be taught or will the misused out of context personal thoughts? I can tell you what I see mostly on this forum. Care to hear about it?

[ClubV12]

I'm wondering what compilations we should throw out first?

Child Guidance maybe? How about many of the devotional book over the years? Should we terminate the EG White Estate provision to assemble her letters and unpublished and published works all together? Keep them from being viewed by ANYONE (being as they are so dangerous and all)? Where do we start, which books first? Where does it end?

Maybe we should reconsider the Great Controversy, or Desire of Ages. Essentially they too are compilations of her various writings over many years or decades and assembled by people that worked for EGW? Not unlike the Trustee's were setup to do after her death.

Paul was nearly blind, he dictated much of his work to an assistant, who then compiled said dictation, checking grammer and such before delivering the various papers. Paul could not read it himself. Maybe we should reconsider his work as being "dangerous" and "out of context" as well? Where does it stop, once we go down that road?

[ClubV12]

"...the main problem is with the conservatives who shove Ellen White down people's throats with - out of context quotes." Of course you would expect to see it in a place like an internet forum. Or a bar, pool hall, public gathering with a wide variety of people. You expect and DO see that with bible quotes as well. Nothing new there.

But what EG White Estate compilation would qualify as "dangerous"? Because that is exactly wha the sermon said, ALL compilations, from the Trustee's should be thrown out (as they were done by "old white haired men)."

[Woody]

Like he said ... ALL compilations can be dangerous.

[ClubV12]

It was said ALL EG White Trustee compilations should be thrown out, NOT, "could be thrown out", "might be dangerous", "probably aren't good",,, ALL of them, 100% done by "white haired old men" of the Trustee's, should be thrown out.

We should identify at least a few:

Anyone got a list of known compilations? We have to start somewhere, knowing what books to trash would be the first step in following the advice given from the pulpit.

Once we get a list, maybe we could start a poll? Like throw out Child Guidance< Yes or No? What book next?

Were talking about over 50 books, by the way, were gonna need more firewood...

How about the,

Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary.

All the Ellen White quotations included as supplementary material in the seven volumes of the SDA Bible Commentary, plus the Ellen White statements in Questions on Doctrine on Christ's nature, the Trinity, and the Atonement.

I guess the Commentary set is out. What next for the big book burning?

[John317]

When you really look at it ... compilations of EGW do more harm than good because you have no idea what the context is and what she is talking about.

Sorry. I have to agree with your preacher.

Ellen White herself put it in her will to have her writings published after her death. That is one of the main purposes of her establishing the Ellen G. White Esate.

Today, with the research tools we have available to us, it is not all that difficult to study the context if we want to do that.

[Woody]

I like you ClubV. You are very funny lol.

A little comedy goes a long ways in my book.

[John317]

It was said ALL EG White Trustee compilations should be thrown out, NOT, "could be thrown out", "might be dangerous", "probably aren't good",,, ALL of them, 100% done by "white haired old men" of the Trustee's, should be thrown out.

The man who said that is very foolish and doesn't know what he's talking about. He's one of those whom Ellen White was talking about when she menioned that there are people who try to persuade others to doubt the Testimonies. Today it is common for some people to do it even while claiming to support her.

What did that "pastor" have against "white haired old men"? God can use white haired old men the same as he can use old men of any color. Would he have been happier if the compilations had been made by old men with a different hair color?

May I ask what the people in the church said in response to that statement?

If I had been there, I would have asked him what the color of people's hair or their age had to do with it.

[Kevin H]

First we should study how Mrs. White understanding of the role of human and divine in her ministry. We tend to read her through the glasses of the 1919 world Bible Conference from Philadelphia instead of from her own self understanding.

The complations tend to be poor, but still useful, however it would be nice if they would be compliled in a way that would let us see her growth and modfications. One trend that she has was when she was younger she would freely use definet language. As she realized that people were quoting her for authority she would change to more vague language, or make some strong modifications. Some examples: first she named a bell for the starting of a horrible event in France, she learned that it was unclear which bell it was and controversy over which bell and some used her quote to solve the controversy, so she changed to saying "a bell". Some of her quotes sounded like she was saying that the Ark would be discovered in the last days, so she started writing more vague and also put the finding of the Ark to the end of the thousand years. Today we still have people who expect to see the Ark before the second coming. She made one comment that not only ephesised the literal creation week but also the 6,000 years. She later crossed out the 6,000 year line and would write page after page about the litteral creation week but down played and avoided the 6,000 years telling us only to be fair to the scriptures and that the world was not millions of years old but fairly young, but too many cling to her early phrase and reject her later development of it.

In the White estate vault there is a lot of corrispondence with different leaders who Mrs. White or Willie White were complaining about them not understanding her writings and misusing her writings and using her words to spread their ideas rather than her ideas. Is is interesting that today Many turn to the men who she and Willie wrote those sharp letters to and see them as their example on the proper use of Ellen White.

Except for the ones she had the closer eyes on, such as the Desire of Ages etc. the complations of her day were not that good, and even worst when she died, but keeping them in mind, and to try to study them in the light of her own self understanding instead of interpeting her according to those men she and Willie complained about and the 1919 Bible conference, the complations can be very useful.

[ClubV12]

...compiled by "white haired old men" of the Trustee... Was the exact terminology used in the sermon.

Is it just me, or is that phrase just dripping with disrespect?

The speaker was female, by the way. Who took some time extolling her credentials and lengthy qualifications. Whew,,, I felt like a complete idiot for not having a PhD before she finished that section....

We had the classic church lunch following the service, where I asked different people what they thought. Virtually 100% of those I talked to agreed the compilations should be thrown out, as the "Doctor" had said in her sermon. I remain aghast and baffled by this response.

[John317]

Once we get a list, maybe we could start a poll? Like throw out Child Guidance< Yes or No? What book next?

No, I really like Child Guidance. I didn't like it when I was a kid, but I enjoy it now. It helped me bring up our 4 kids.

[John317]

I'm sad to hear that happened. Makes me feel like crying about what's happening in some of our churches. We really need to pray for them.

[ClubV12]

It was ESPECIALLY Child Guidance she railed against. She said she literally threw it to the floor in her home. And then proceeded to tell us how we should really raise our children, based on her modern schooling and understanding.

[John317]

This is a pastor?

What conference?

I once went to an SDA psychologist to get counseling when I was as student at Loma Linda U, and he told me that he "hated" Messages to Young People and wished it had never been published. I love that book myself. The only reason anyone would dislike it would be if it says something they don't want to hear. I know the Devil hates it and doesn't want anyone to study it.

[John317]

...The complations tend to be poor, but still useful, however it would be nice if they would be compliled in a way that would let us see her growth and modfications.

Why not get in touch with Jim Nix and let him know your idea. Maybe he will like it.

But you can see those things if you read Spiritual Gifts, Spirit of Prophecy, Early Writings, and then the Conflict Series. There are also many books that discuss her growth. One very good one is Understanding the Trinity. It contains a whole chapter which describes how her views of the Godhead evolved over time.

[ClubV12]

NOT a pastor, a well respected PhD lay person of the community who has spoken before at our church (Oregon).

To much secular training I suspect...

[John317]

God help our churches. It's no wonder we're still on this earth.

[John317]

... One trend that she has was when she was younger she would freely use definet language. As she realized that people were quoting her for authority she would change to more vague language, or make some strong modifications. Some examples: first she named a bell for the starting of a horrible event in France, she learned that it was unclear which bell it was and controversy over which bell and some used her quote to solve the controversy, so she changed to saying "a bell".

Where did she first name the bell? Do you have a source?

Quote:

But blackest in the black catalogue of crime, most horrible among the fiendish deeds of all the dreadful centuries, was the St. Bartholomew Massacre. The world still recalls with shuddering horror the scenes of that most cowardly and cruel onslaught. The king of France, urged on by Romish priests and prelates, lent his sanction to the dreadful work. The great bell of the palace, tolling at dead of night, was a signal for the slaughter. Protestants by thousands, sleeping quietly in their homes, trusting to the plighted honor of their king, were dragged forth without a warning, and murdered in cold blood. {GC88 272.1}

Quote:

In no land had the spirit of enmity against Christ and the truth been more strikingly displayed than in giddy and godless France. Nowhere had the gospel encountered more bitter and cruel opposition. In the streets of Paris, Christ had indeed been crucified in the person of his saints. The world still recalls with shuddering horror the scenes of that most cowardly and cruel onslaught, the Massacre of St. Bartholomew. The king of France, urged on by Romish priests and prelates, lent his sanction to the dreadful work. The palace bell, tolling at midnight, gave the signal for the slaughter to begin. Protestants by thousands, sleeping quietly in their homes, trusting to the plighted honor of their king, were dragged forth without a warning, and murdered in cold blood. {4SP 191.1}

Where's the evidence that she named a bell?

[John317]

Some of her quotes sounded like she was saying that the Ark would be discovered in the last days, so she started writing more vague and also put the finding of the Ark to the end of the thousand years. Today we still have people who expect to see the Ark before the second coming.

Sounds like you're saying she was trying to hide something-- that she wrote in vague langauge so that it would be hard to pin down exactly what she was predicting.

I don't think her wriitngs on those things are vague. She clearly says that at both the beginning and at the end of the one thousand years, the law of God will be seen.

Where does Ellen Whtie "put the finding of the Ark at the end of the thousand years"?

She wrote the following:

Quote:

While these words of holy trust ascend to God, the clouds sweep back, and the starry heavens are seen, unspeakably glorious in contrast with the black and angry firmament on either side. The glory of the celestial city streams from the gates ajar. Then there appears against the sky a hand holding two tables of stone folded together. Says the prophet: "The heavens shall declare His righteousness: for God is judge Himself." Psalm 50:6. That holy law, God's righteousness, that amid thunder and flame was proclaimed from Sinai as the guide of life, is now revealed to men as the rule of judgment. The hand opens the tables, and there are seen the precepts of the Decalogue, traced as with a pen of fire. The words are so plain that all can read them. Memory is aroused, the darkness of superstition and heresy is swept from every mind, and God's ten words, brief, comprehensive, and authoritative, are presented to the view of all the inhabitants of the earth. {GC 639.1}

It is impossible to describe the horror and despair of those who have trampled upon God's holy requirements. The Lord gave them His law; they might have compared their characters with it and learned their defects while there was yet opportunity for repentance and reform; but in order to secure the favor of the world, they set aside its precepts and taught others to transgress. They have endeavored to compel

640

God's people to profane His Sabbath. Now they are condemned by that law which they have despised. With awful distinctness they see that they are without excuse. They chose whom they would serve and worship. "Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not." Malachi 3:18. {GC 639.2}

The enemies of God's law, from the ministers down to the least among them, have a new conception of truth and duty. Too late they see that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God. Too late they see the true nature of their spurious sabbath and the sandy foundation upon which they have been building. They find that they have been fighting against God. Religious teachers have led souls to perdition while professing to guide them to the gates of Paradise. Not until the day of final accounts will it be known how great is the responsibility of men in holy office and how terrible are the results of their unfaithfulness. Only in eternity can we rightly estimate the loss of a single soul. Fearful will be the doom of him to whom God shall say: Depart, thou wicked servant. {GC 640.1}

Just before the wicked are utterly destroyed, they witness the coronation of Chrsit:

Quote:

As if entranced, the wicked have looked upon the coronation of the Son of God. They see in His hands the tables of the divine law, the statutes which they have despised and transgressed. GC 668, 669

Where do you find the evidence that Ellen White "started writing more vague"?

[LifeHiscost]

It was said ALL EG White Trustee compilations should be thrown out, NOT, "could be thrown out", "might be dangerous", "probably aren't good",,, ALL of them, 100% done by "white haired old men" of the Trustee's, should be thrown out.

I recall another man who thought it would be good to do a little book burning of dangerous literature. Someone commented later on, that where it was found necessary to burn books, it would eventually lead to burning men, or words to that effect. The initial statement led to 50,000,000 lives lost by murder and mayhem. His first name was Adolf.

BTW, was the name of that individual who suggested the, errr,

book throwing out, known?

""Notable Quotations from George Santayana

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.'

Life of Reason, Reason in Common Sense, Scribner's, 1905, page 284" "

God blesses!

[Kevin H]

In the early account Mrs. White said "a Palace bell" while there were like 3 or 4 different buildings in the area and it was not necessarly from the Palace where the bell rang so Mrs. White changed it to "a bell" check out the 1911 Great Controversy.

As for Child Guidance, In Roger Coon's writings of Ellen White Class at the seminary, he pointed out that Mrs. White wrote a lot of letters to a friend of hers giving advice in raising children, but then wrote her friend a letter saying please don't follow any of the advice she sent her in those other letters because they don't work and would make matters with the children worst. So should we follow the advice that she wrote at first, or the advice she wrote in that last letter?

As for Messages to Young people, that was under attack by many of the classes I've taken at both college, seminary and in sermons. The criticizisms brought up included that often there were long friendly letters with a brief word of warning, and with the word of warning was often the solution to the problem, but the phrase taken was only the warning with the solution and warmth left out. That some of them were written to older people and Mrs. White said "This is something that I would not be upset over a young person doing, but someone your age should not be doing this" or similar phrases, and that many of the committee that compiled "Messages for Young Poeple" turned against the book they compiled saying that they were fairly angry when working on the book and just wanted to but young people in their place and as they got older and more mellow felt that they had sinned and asked for forgivness. No John, while the professors and pastors read letters and sources in the classroom, and from the pulpet and I went to the White estate vault and read some of them on my own but that was back in like 83-85 so I do not have any of them to list here, but they really really do exist. What I recommend is to take a good Spirit of Prophecy class at our colleges.

Messages to Young people seem to be the one compalation that gets the most criticism from professor, pastor, and even the records from the compilers expressing regret for what they did, and according to Dr. Coon the compilers today try to avoid the issues that occured from Child Guidance and Messages to Young People and try to be more responsible. But still, we need to give to our people a clear picture of the role and ministry of Ellen White. Back in 1919 A. G. Daniels lemented that the lay members were developing a picture of Mrs. White that did not fit the facts and if unchecked would destroy the church. In response to this consern he was thrown out of office and replaced by someone who held similar views to Daniel's but who did not feel that it was his job to correct the error.

Once again, I like the compalations, but realize that different compilations are on different levels ranging from the excellent ones such as Desire of Ages, to fair ones such as Testominies to Ministers, to those to use but with caution such as child guidance and messages to young people. and when you find a quote that you like in the compilation that it should encourage you to do more research on the quote and it's context.

[ClubV12]

Kevin, the subject could be debated, specific books, quotes or details pointed out, in the right time and place.

Or, in your next sermon from the pulpit, on sabbath, you could simply tell the people ALL EGW compilations should be trashed as worthless. Do that with tears in your voice, as a solemn plea, to help the people understand how dangerous these books are. Thats the way I heard it, from the pulpit. I won't name the individual here, I'm not sure what if any action I should take locally. My biggest concern is that nobody I've talked to seems to have a clue about the danger posed here. Such is the power of a well trained, well trusted public speaker.

...John is right, God help our church.