Rape

[Woody]

Why did Jeremiah say "Oh Lord you have raped me"?

[Kevin H]

According to one of my most conservative professors at the Seminary, Jeremiah didn't and despite finding more and more evidence for it the professor refused to accept the termpaper I wrote until I edited that portion out of my paper. According to other professors, Jeremiah did say it.

I don't know all of the issues, but some was: Jeremiah was a very unlikely prophet, yet also a very likely prophet. Ancient Yahwehism had two denominations one lead by the priesthood of Aaron, the other from the Priesthood of Moses. The Aaronites were focused on the tabernacle where God can live among his people, the Moshites the tent of meeting outside the camp because the people would not live if God lived among his people. The Aaronites were very solemn and ritualistic, "be still and know that I am God" and had a stron general conference. The Fall festivals were even more solemn and focused around the temple, spring festivals still solemn but more relaxed and focused on the family. White there were pockes of Aaronites in the north and they were their own subgroup, the Aaronites were mostly in the south. The Moshites had tamberines and dancing, worship was rejoicing. The day of Atonment was to dance and sing "He has thrown my sin's behind his back" They were more congragational. Their fall feasts were the most celebratory and were focused more on the family, while the spring were a little more subduded than the fall and the Spring feasts were more focused on the locaitons for worship. They were more congragational with a weak general conference. While there were some Southern Moshites, they were mostly strong in the North.

The Moshites ended up under curses. The house of Eli which was not to have an old man among them. The house of Abithar (David had 2 high priests, one Aaronite, one Moshite) banished from the Temple and to their family home. They were the highpriests of the cursed Northern Kingdom. They were the priests of the cursed high places. Most, if not all of the curses we find in the deuteronomic history if you were to trace them out all fell on Jeremiah. He was the high-priest of the cursed Moshites, the house of Eli, the house of Abithar, the cursed Northern Kingdom, the cursed high-places (had Hezikiah not discontinued the high places 100 years prior, Jeremiah would have been the hight priest of the high places) With all these curses, Jeremiah was as likely to be choosen to be a prophet as for us to fine the Pope to be chosen to be a prophet.

However he was very likely to be a prophet because his family had more prophets in it than any other family. The curse on the house of Eli was turned into the fact that it would have so many prophets, and prophets have a tendency not to live to become old.

So here we have this man of all the curses making some radical changes to the prophecies of Isaiah. And you have prophets from God's Remnant people, good Aanonites, followed the blessed priesthood of Zadok, the blessed house of David, and making exact reapplication of Isaiah. Jeremiah's message was that the promises on the house of David were conditional and that they were not to resist the Babylonians and that just as his ansisters kept doing things that brought God's curses, so Judah was doing things that were going for God's curses.

I have to admit being so tired my eyes are sore, I'm falling asleep whitle typing. I have to be quick here; but Jeremiah, with all these curses, was predicting distruction and yielding to Babylon, while the Prophets from God's remenant church said that they had a much better new testament in the promise to the house of David that they saw as unconditional and that God would not let anything happen to the house of David, and that like how Isaiah had them resist the Assyrians, so we need to resist the Babylonians. Jeremiah was wondering if all the curses he was bearing was why his message was so sad maybe God was punishing him with his prophicies.

[Kevin H]

Good morning: Anyway a brief and probably not complete answer is that although Jeremiah came from a family that had more prophets than other families, he also came from a family that was under more curses than others.

Ok, so here is the high priest of the section of Israel that had all those curses, which would automatically prejudice people against him, and he is agreeing with the curses but saying that the "faithful" section of Israel is in danger of being cursed with the exile. Meanwhile the prophets from the good schools, connected with the temple and the house of David were saying that they were to resist the Babylonians just like Isaiah told them to resist the Assyrians, that they had the promise to the house of David and that just like Mannassett repented and returned to the throne, that no matter how bad things get God will remember his promise to David and make everything alright.

So Jeremiah felt that he was a representative of the apostates trying to minister to the remanant who could quote all the proof texts against him and his family, and giving a message so different than the prophets who were good members of the remnant people were giving. No wonder he felt that he was being rapped.

[Gerr]

Why did Jeremiah say "Oh Lord you have raped me"?

Can't find the quote, Woody. Could you please provide the reference?

[Woody]

Jere.20:7

Of course different scholars translate it differently as has been stated here on this thread. The word is in debate.

[Gerr]

Thanks.

[Gerr]

ESV | Je 20:7 O LORD, you have deceived me, and I was deceived; you are stronger than I, and you have prevailed. I have become a laughingstock all the day; everyone mocks me.

NASB95 | Je 20:7 O LORD, You have deceived me and I was deceived; You have overcome me and prevailed. I have become a laughingstock all day long; Everyone mocks me.

NIV84 | Je 20:7 O LORD, you deceived me, and I was deceived; you overpowered me and prevailed. I am ridiculed all day long; everyone mocks me.

NRSV | Je 20:7 O LORD, you have enticed me, and I was enticed; you have overpowered me, and you have prevailed. I have become a laughingstock all day long; everyone mocks me.

KJV 1900 | Je 20:7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: Thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, Every one mocketh me.

YLT: Thou hast persuaded me, O Jehovah, and I am persuaded; Thou hast hardened me, and dost prevail, I have been for a laughter all the day, Every one is mocking at me,

Holman: You deceived me, LORD, and I was deceived.

You seized me and prevailed.

I am a laughingstock all the time;

everyone ridicules me.

NET Bible:

20:7 LORD, you coerced me into being a prophet,

and I allowed you to do it.

You overcame my resistance and prevailed over me.

Now I have become a constant laughingstock.

Everyone ridicules me.

NCV: LORD, you tricked me, and I was fooled.

You are stronger than I am, so you won.

I have become a joke;

everyone makes fun of me all day long

GWT: O LORD, you have deceived me, and I was deceived.

You overpowered me and won.

I’ve been made fun of all day long.

Everyone mocks me.

6601 פָּתָה, פָּתָה [pathah /paw·thaw/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 1853; GK 7331 and 7332; 28 occurrences; AV translates as “entice” 10 times, “deceive” eight times, “persuade” four times, “flatter” twice, “allure” once, “enlarge” once, “silly one” once, and “silly” once. 1 to be spacious, be open, be wide. 1A (Qal) to be spacious or open or wide. 1B (Hiphil) to make spacious, make open. 2 to be simple, entice, deceive, persuade. 2A (Qal). 2A1 to be open-minded, be simple, be naive. 2A2 to be enticed, be deceived. 2B (Niphal) to be deceived, be gullible. 2C (Piel). 2C1 to persuade, seduce. 2C2 to deceive. 2D (Pual). 2D1 to be persuaded. 2D2 to be deceived.

I have another dozen translations. None of them even hint of this "raped" business.

[Kevin H]

Gerry: The issue is that the Hebrew words are so gross that no one wants to translate it. While I don't know Hebrew, I did look it up in different, both commentaries, but also word studies, and the Hebrew is discribing in quite graphic detail a homosexual rape, and to just use the word "Rape" is softening the language, and Deceive is much softer and much easier to take and gives enough of the idea of Jeremiah's frustration that we don't need to get into the words that he actually said. Believe me, I'm happy enough with the word "Deceive" or even "Rape" and could do well not knowing any better translations of the Hebrew.

[John317]

It's pawthaw-- Strongs #6601.

Who is saying Jer. 20: 7 should be translated as "rape"?

Where in literature-- either biblical or extra-biblical-- does it clearly have the significance of rape?

[John317]

...I did look it up in different, both commentaries, but also word studies, and the Hebrew is discribing in quite graphic detail a homosexual rape, and to just use the word "Rape" is softening the language,...

Could you please give references?

Also quote the passage where it has this sense.

[John317]

Gerry: The issue is that the Hebrew words are so gross that no one wants to translate it.

What translation, if any, reads "rape" in Jere. 20: 7?

What commentary, if any, says it's speaking of rape?

[John317]

I have another dozen translations. None of them even hint of this "raped" business.

I have over 45 and see none that translate it as "rape."

However, the Christian Community Bible (Catholic) translates it as "seduced." That is really a literal translation of the word. A seduced person has been deceived or duped. But the word "rape" would not fit in the context. The prophet is not saying that God forced him to be a prophet. He is saying that God tricked him into doing it. Most translations read "deceived" or "enticed," or a word with a similar meaning.

The same Hebrew word occurs in Jer. 20: 10, where "rape" would again be out of place.

ESV--Jeremiah 20:10

For I hear many whispering.

Terror is on every side!

"Denounce him! Let us denounce him!"

say all my close friends,

watching for my fall.

"Perhaps he will be deceived [Heb. paw-thaw];

then we can overcome him

and take our revenge on him."

NOTE: Obviously it would make no sense to say, "Perhaps Jeremiah will be raped; then we can overcome him..."

The word "deceived" fits much better in that context as well as in Jeremiah 20: 7.

[Gerr]

20:7–8 In his strongest language yet, Jeremiah accused the Lord of deceiving him (cf. 15:18). “Deceive” is used in the OT as a technical term for the seduction of a maiden by a man (Exod 22:16; cf. Ezek 14:9, where it is translated “persuaded”; and Judg 16:5; 1 Kgs 22:20, “lure”). Jeremiah’s pain was not only physical; he felt that he had become the “laughingstock” (from the same word as Isaac, “laughter”) of his people.

Huey, F. (2001). Vol. 16: Jeremiah, Lamentations (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; The New American Commentary (192). Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers.

deceived—Others translate as Margin, “Thou hast enticed” or “persuaded me,” namely, to undertake the prophetic office, “and I was persuaded,” that is, suffered myself to be persuaded to undertake what I find too hard for me. So the Hebrew word is used in a good sense (Ge 9:27, Margin; Pr 25:15; Ho 2:14).

Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., Fausset, A. R., Brown, D., & Brown, D. (1997). A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments (Je 20:7). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: GECL has “You deceived me, Lord, and I let myself be deceived,” which is the best way to interpret the Hebrew text. In Exo 22:16 the verb deceived is used of “seducing” a virgin, and in 1 Kgs 22:20–23 it is used of the lying spirit that deceives Ahab. An alternative translation for deceived in this context is “persuaded,” as in the NIV footnote.

Newman, B. M., & Stine, P. C. (2003). A handbook on Jeremiah. UBS handbook series (451). New York: United Bible Societies.

Ver. 7.—Thou hast deceived me, etc.; rather, thou didst entire me, and I let myself be enticed. Jeremiah refers to the hesitation he originally felt to accepting the prophetic office (ch. 1). The verb does not mean “to deceive,” but “to entice” (so rendered in ver. 10, Authorized Version), or “allure.” The same word is used in that remarkable narrative of “the spirit” who offered to “entice” (Authorized Version, to “persuade”) Ahab to “go up and fall at Ramoth-Gilead” (1 Kings 22:21). In Ezekiel, too, the same case is supposed as possible of Jehovah’s “enticing” a prophet (Ezek. 15:9). The expression implies that all events are, in some sense, caused by God, even those which are, or appear to be injurious to the individual.

The Pulpit Commentary: Jeremiah Vol. I. 2004 (H. D. M. Spence-Jones, Ed.) (463). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

In vv. 7 and 8 Jeremiah complains of the evil consequences of his labours. God has persuaded him to undertake the office of prophet, so that he has yielded to the call of God. The words of v. 7a are not an upbraiding, nor are they given in an upbraiding tone (Hitz.); for פִּתָּה does not mean befool, but persuade, induce by words to do a thing. חָזַק used transitively, but not as 1 Kings 16:22, overpower (Ros., Graf, etc.); for then it would not be in keeping with the following וַתּוּכָל, which after “overpower” would seem very feeble. It means: lay hold of; as usually in the Hiph., so here in Kal. It thus corresponds to חֶזְקַת יָד, Isa. 8:11, denoting the state of being laid hold of by the power of the Spirit of God in order to prophesy. תּוּכַל, not: Thou hast been able, but: Thou hast prevailed, conquered. A sharp contrast to this is presented by the issue of his prophetic labours: I am become a laughing-stock all the day, i.e., incessantly. כֻּלֹּה, its (the people’s) entirety = all the people.—In v. 8 “call” is explained by “cry out violence and spoil:” complain of the violence and spoliation that are practised. The word of Jahveh is become a reproach and obloquy, i.e., the proclamation of it has brought him only contempt and obloquy. The two cases of כִּי are co-ordinate; the two clauses give two reasons for everybody mocking at him. One is objective: so often as he speaks he can do nothing but complain of violence, so that he is ridiculed by the mass of the people; and one is subjective: his preaching brings him only disgrace. Most comm. refer “violence and spoiling” to the ill-usage the prophet experiences; but this does not exhaust the reference of the words.

Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (2002). Commentary on the Old Testament. (Je 20:7–13). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson.

20:7-10. Jeremiah opened his heart to God and expressed the depth of his inner emotions. He felt that God had deceived him by letting him be ridiculed by the people for his message

Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (Je 20:7–10). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

20:7 This is the language of prophetic exaggeration. God did not deceive Jeremiah; He had warned him that he would be opposed (1:8, 19; 12:5).

Cabal, T., Brand, C. O., Clendenen, E. R., Copan, P., Moreland, J., & Powell, D. (2007). The Apologetics Study Bible: Real Questions, Straight Answers, Stronger Faith (1118). Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers.

Would you please give reference to a Heb dictionary that has the meaning as you are saying?

[Woody]

What have I done by starting this thread?

I was just reporting a 'rumor' I had read about.

It stated that 'some' translated it rape.

Now we have a heated debate about it.

Guess that 'some' is a 'few'.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Now we have a heated debate about it.

My temperature is still normal, and haven't broken out in a sweat yet.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

Gerry: The issue is that the Hebrew words are so gross that no one wants to translate it.

What translation, if any, reads "rape" in Jere. 20: 7?

What commentary, if any, says it's speaking of rape?

Keep reading, that's what I did. I looked up in the different commentaries and journal articles, and Old Testament word studies that I could find in the James White Libarary at Andrews University. There were quite a few references to this.

Like I said this was back in the 1980s, and the teacher (actually he was a doctoral student teaching the research methods class, as the normal professor was out sick that semister. I remember this young man had a bad habit of not answering the questions the students were asking in class, he'd give an answer by re-explaining the point before or the point after the question, which were usually clear the first time he said them, but the confusing points that we wanted clearification of he avoided and belittled us saying he has gone over the informaiton 3 times, but he as I said kept going ver points before or after and avoided the confusing point and thus not the point that the question. And he found theological ideas in every student's paper that he did not like and demanded that they removed from the paper, and this was the point he demanded removal from my paper). I do not remember my exact sources, as I said I read much in the Jame's while libarary.

Actually what happened was I had mentioned it in passing from a lecture from another class (by a propfessor who also happened to be a Biblical Hebrew Professor), and I thought that the this teacher just wanteded stronger evidence so I began to research it thinking a stronger reference would please him. As he kept challenging and I thought that he wanted even more evidence and finally my list of references took up close to a page, then he finally stated that he did not agree with that interpetation and demanded that I remove it from my paper.

My major sorces for every research paper were Strongs concordance: the Theological Word book of the Old Testament by Harris, Gleason and Wilkie (I believe); John Bright's "The History of Israel" Arhroni's "The Land of the Bible" "The MacMillian Bible Atlas" The SDA Bible Commentary, The Interperter's Bible, the Anchor Bible, and the International Commentary on the Old Testament (specific book); the Journal Interpetations; and the journal something like Vestus Textamentum (or something like that), then I'd see what else I could find at the James White Libarary.

I don't remember if I found it in my major sources or only from other sources that I found on the shelves in the James White Libarary. If the Jame's White libarary can have many sources with it, I'm sure you can find some of them. Just keep looking. I ended up with a whole page of footnotes for this point, which came from conservative sources. If I could find them I know that you can find them.

[Gerr]

Kevin, here are references in which one of these 4 major translations (ESV, NIV, NRSV, NASB) use the word "rape".

Dt. 22:25,28; Jud 19:25, 22:5; 2 Sam 13:14,22,32; Lam 5:11; Zech 14:2. None of them use the word used in Jer 20:7. Jeremiah also authored Lamentation; and he did not use that word in Lam 5:11. Until I see better evidence, I consider this a travesty.

[John317]

I will do some research on it next time I go to the Loma Linda University Library.

I don't know why a teacher would insist on your taking something out of your paper. If a graduate student wants something in his paper, the teacher should simply make a recommentation but then grade the paper on the basis of what the student decides to write. But on the other hand, I do agree with your teacher about Jere. 20: 7. "Rape" doesn't fit the context and I don't know of a single translation that reads that way. My experience is that you are certain to find among 45+ translations the correct way a word should be translated.

[Woody]

Quote:

I consider this a travesty

Sorry. I had no idea what I was getting myself into.

[Gail]

I've been finding this interesting!

[Woody]

I've been finding this interesting!

Praise God for Kevin ... or this thread would have been dead long ago.

For sure ... I know nothing about it other than what I initially reported.

[Gail]

Well, at least it's not totally unheard of.

I'm not one for reading long posts, but I always enjoy Kevin's wealth of information.

[Woody]

Well, at least it's not totally unheard of.

I'm not one for reading long posts, but I always enjoy Kevin's wealth of information.

Yes. My same thoughts exactly. I usually skip long posts with lots of quotes. Or just skim them. But I've tried hard to absorb Kevin's in depth posts regarding this. Very interesting.

[Kevin H]

Kevin, here are references in which one of these 4 major translations (ESV, NIV, NRSV, NASB) use the word "rape".

Dt. 22:25,28; Jud 19:25, 22:5; 2 Sam 13:14,22,32; Lam 5:11; Zech 14:2. None of them use the word used in Jer 20:7. Jeremiah also authored Lamentation; and he did not use that word in Lam 5:11. Until I see better evidence, I consider this a travesty.

Tell the James White Libarary at Andrews that they need to clear out their books since it is a travesty to have those books on their shelf and availble for research.

John, as I said before the teacher of that class was a doctorate student who was covering for the professor who was ill that semester. He had a couple of rough edges as I pointed out earlier, and the other students also complained on how he kept finding things in their papers that he demanded they remove.

[Gerr]

Quote:

I consider this a travesty

Sorry. I had no idea what I was getting myself into.

If you repent and put on washcloth and ashes, I'll slaughter something as an offering for you.