Wednesday or Friday crucifixion

[Stan]

IN some circles it is a huge issue if Christ was crucified on Wednesday or Friday.

I just don't get the issue.

Most people will defend whatever their parents or their Church teaches.

Either day works for me..

[ClubV12]

Hmmm, thats a new one on me. I guess the reasoning is Thursday, Friday and Saturday represent the three days in the tomb, rising on the fourth, Sunday. OoooKkkk....

That reminds me of how William Miller wrestled with the "missing day/year" in Daniel 2,300 prophecy. Strict math leaves you with 1843, something I also wrestled with trying to figure out where the missing year went! Turns out it was a few months in the first year, a few months in the last year, here a few, there a few, it all add's up (to 1844)!

Another interesting "time frame" is the 6 days Matthew 17:1 talks about. When the apostles spent 6 days alone with Jesus after He told them He was going to Jeruasalem to die. Luke records that event as eight days! Luke's reasoning: Day one, He tell's them. For the next six days after that they think about it, (all depressed and such). In the early morning hours of the eigth day, they witness His tranfiguration. Matthew=6. Luke=8. Their both right!

[Haldog]

It wasn't Friday for sure. It was either Wednesday or Thursday. The "sabbaths" mentioned was not the seventh-day sabbath but a "High" sabbath, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15.

[ClubV12]

Fascinating....

Following your logic, Wednesday or Thursday, Haldog, and realizing Mary could not return to the tomb because of the "sabbath" or "sabbath's" (one a High sabbath and one a regular sabbath), which day does that leave us with for the crucifiction day?

Seems like the Mary part of this equation would rule out, or in, only ONE of the days in question.

Surely she would have returned as soon as possible, say, Friday, if that was a "regular" day before the "regular" Sabbath.

[Musicman1228]

At what time of day did the day end and new day begin in the Jewish culture? If you are SDA you have been living the reality of this since you were baptized.

The word 'Dawn' as translated in the gospels is actually from the Greek word 'nocturne', which means 'turn of night'.

You also cannot cram 3 nights and 3 days into 'any part of 3 days'. Jesus either meant this or He didn't. If you say that He didn't actually mean three full night and three full days then what else will you remove from His words to prove a point.

Jesus was resurrected on Sabbath right before the 'turn of night'. The term 'early in the first day of the week' happened RIGHT AFTER DARK on the day after the Sabbath, which began right at sunset.

The love Jesus has for the Sabbath is confirmed by His resurrection on Sabbath evening, and confirms the Sabbath as the day God set aside for rest and worship.

Please read the following paper. It is very revealing as to what really occurred.

The Sabbath Resurrection.

[ClubV12]

Well the physical resurrection could have occured anytime after sunset on Saturday night, or as one might say, "Sunday morning". But not likely "immediately" after sunset because I believe Jesus would have "guarded the edges" of the sabbath day. Letting night fall fully and without question so the sabbath would be over, without a doubt.

In reference to "three days and three nights":

"Jesus either meant this or He didn't." I don't think it's as clear cut as you would suggest that it was a literal three days and three nights.

I don't have a problem with Friday being counted as "one day", Saturday as a "second day" and "Sunday morning" as a third day. In terms of "literal days and nights".

But the concept of a Wednesday or Thursday crucifiction is not easily dismissed and is indeed an arguable and interesting point!

I reject the concept that Jesus was resurrected at anytime during the Sabbath day. Early evening, twilight or whatever, to me, it had to occur after sundown. Or another way to put it is, "Sunday morning", just before Mary arrived. Regardless of the day of His death, Wednesday, Thursday or Friday.

If, as some suggest, it was late sabbath afternoon, near or at "twilight", why wait at all? Why not Sabbath morning? Or Sabbath noon? Or the very beginning of Sabbath, Friday night after dark! No, He waited for the Sabbath day to be completed in it's fullness, as did Mary.

[Kevin H]

Stan, the issue is that we are Greek in our thoughts and the Bible was written in Eastern thoughts. Too many Greek thinkers insist that the Bible has to fit Greek thought and thuse to get in 3 days they insist on a good 3 days from a Greek point of view.

People are also confused on how Matthew, Mark and Luke has the Last supper being Passover and John has the cricifixion being Passover. Then there is the confusion over how early Christian tradition saw the Last Supper as being Tuesday night, but modern Christian Tradition has it Thursday night and between midnight and 9:00 AM Friday had all the trials and beating. Some with the modern tradition of all the trials being between midnight to 9:00 AM they can take that same time line and have Jesus on the cross 9:00 Wednesday morning.

However when we look at what Archaeology says about the 2 days that passover was kept in 30 and 31 AD, some Jewish sub-groups such as the Essenices, said that Passover was Tuesday night that week, and the Temple said it was Friday. Mark said that Passover was 2 days after Palm Sunday, Monday and Tuesday, which corrisponds to the one day that the Essenices and some others said that Passover was that year, and John places Simon's feast 5 days before Passover. Simon's feast was Monday afternoon to evening, and the Temple Passover was for Friday night the 5th day. All 4 gospels use the language of the feast of firstfruits for the Resurection. So Jesus' resurection would have been predicted in the feast of first fruits and the feast of first fruits was early Sunday morning. Also all the trials, and that Jewish law requires a prisoner to maybe have some inquiries but that the formal trial had to be the day after the arrest, and that Pilate's wife had a dream about this trial indicates that Jesus' trials covered more than a few hours between Midnight and 9:00 AM. What Archaeologists suggest is that the last supper was the day that some Jews said that Passover was, Tuesday night. They left the upper room after midnight and Jesus went to the garden and prayed, then was arrested, an inquary before Annas, Jesus taken to the prision in Caiphas' house, going through the courtyard he heard Peter's 3rd denial, Jesus spent the rest of Wednesday in the prision, out thursday for the hearing before Caiphas and 23 Saducees (for a total of 24 elders). While they could have stoned Jesus to death, they brought him to Pilate to crucify him since the hanging on a tree was understood as being cursed by God and it would ruin a reputation as surely as anything you can think of learning about a pastor that would make you want to distance yourself from him. Then the trials before Pilate, Herod, back to Pilate, Jesus being flogged (Jesus was one of only 2 people we know of who was flogged and crucified. They were usually 2 different punishments). Either Wednesday or Thursday night Pilate's wife's dream. Friday morning taken out to be crucified.

[phkrause]

If we say that Christ was crucified in AD 30 than the dates are as follows:

14th Nissan=Erev Peasch (wed april 3), 15th Nissan=Peasch (thurs april 4), 16th Nissan=Peasch+1st day Omer (fri april 5), 21st Nissan=Peasch+6th day Omer (wed april 10), 22nd Nissan=Peasch+7th day Omer (thurs april 11);

Now if we go by AD 31 than the dates are as follow:

14th Nissan=Erev Peasch (Mon Mar 24), 15th Nissan=Peasch (Tues Mar 25), 16th Nissan=Peasch+1st day Omer (Mar 26), 21st Nissan=Peasch+6nd day Omer (Mon Mar 31), 22nd Nissan=Peasch+7th day Omer (Tues April 1).

Personally I believe that Christ was crucified in the year AD 30 and it was on Friday that he died, this would be day 1, he rested on the Sabbath which would be day 2, and rose very early Sunday morning which would be day three. The the reason that I think the three days should go over this period is because it shows that even in death Christ celebrated the 7th day Sabbath that was made holy from creation.

[Musicman1228]

If we say that Christ was crucified in AD 30 than the dates are as follows:

14th Nissan=Erev Peasch (wed april 3), 15th Nissan=Peasch (thurs april 4), 16th Nissan=Peasch+1st day Omer (fri april 5), 21st Nissan=Peasch+6th day Omer (wed april 10), 22nd Nissan=Peasch+7th day Omer (thurs april 11);

Now if we go by AD 31 than the dates are as follow:

14th Nissan=Erev Peasch (Mon Mar 24), 15th Nissan=Peasch (Tues Mar 25), 16th Nissan=Peasch+1st day Omer (Mar 26), 21st Nissan=Peasch+6nd day Omer (Mon Mar 31), 22nd Nissan=Peasch+7th day Omer (Tues April 1).

Personally I believe that Christ was crucified in the year AD 30 and it was on Friday that he died, this would be day 1, he rested on the Sabbath which would be day 2, and rose very early Sunday morning which would be day three. The the reason that I think the three days should go over this period is because it shows that even in death Christ celebrated the 7th day Sabbath that was made holy from creation.

In saying this you negate completely what Jesus said about the 'sign of Jonah':

But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matt. 12:39-40.

This is not a matter of personal 'belief', it is a matter where you must decide whether Jesus made this statement, and if He did did He mean it. If He said it and meant it then it is impossible for Jesus to have been crucified on Friday and resurrected on Sunday; you cannot fit 3 nights and 3 days into that time period.

Also Jesus was not resurrected AFTER sunset on Sabbath, he was resurrected BEFORE sunset. Mary did not go to the tomb until it was fully dark on the first day of the week, where she discovered the stone ALREADY removed. This is consistent with the timing of the killing of the Passover lamb which occurred BEFORE sunset on Passover (14 days on or following the first new moon after the Spring Equinox, ref. EX.12). If you include all 3 nights (Wed., Thurs., Friday) and all 3 days (Thurs. Fri. Sabbath) you will see that Jesus had to be resurrected on Sabbath before sunset to fulfill the requirements for the Passover Lamb.

Why SDA's don't embrace this I do not know, because it proclaims the 'Sabbath more fully', as we have been told would happen before the end. Also, why would SDA's wish to confirm the Roman Catholic view point which (without a doubt) was put in place to replace Sabbath with Sunday as the day of worship and rest.

By supporting a Sunday morning resurrection you are supporting Sunday as the day of worship, in which case you are better off leaving the SDA church and joining a Sunday church. It is more honest.

[phkrause]

By supporting a Sunday morning resurrection you are supporting Sunday as the day of worship, in which case you are better off leaving the SDA church and joining a Sunday church. It is more honest.

Are you now telling me what I believe????? Just because I accept that Christ rose on Sunday doesn't mean I will ever except sunday as the day of worship. And no thank you for that beautiful invention to leave the church, but I go by the Bible and no where does it tell me that sunday is the new Sabbath.

[Musicman1228]

My last sentence was designed to focus attention of the issue and not to make threats. For me the two are mutually exclusive; one can't accept the Sabbath and also accept Sunday as the day of resurrection. You, of course, will do what you feel is best for you.

[ClubV12]

"...one can't accept the Sabbath and also accept Sunday as the day of resurrection."

There are many reasons why the 7th day was set aside in favor of the 1st day of the week for worship. The resurrection was NOT the primary reason or even secondary reason. The resurrection plays a very small part in the overall picture of Sunday worship. Some folks like to use it as a convenient "excuse", mostly because they are ignorant of the facts surrounding the change to Sunday in the first place.

It is ludicrous to suggest one cannot accept the Sabbath and believe in a Sunday resurrection.

[phkrause]

My last sentence was designed to focus attention of the issue and not to make threats. For me the two are mutually exclusive; one can't accept the Sabbath and also accept Sunday as the day of resurrection. You, of course, will do what you feel is best for you.

No I will do what's best for my Lord and Savior. For you maybe the two are mutually exclusive, but for many its not. You are not a prophet or the spokesperson for the Church let alone any church!!!!!! period. And by the way there is no issue.

[phkrause]

"...one can't accept the Sabbath and also accept Sunday as the day of resurrection."

There are many reasons why the 7th day was set aside in favor of the 1st day of the week for worship. The resurrection was NOT the primary reason or even secondary reason. The resurrection plays a very small part in the overall picture of Sunday worship. Some folks like to use it as a convenient "excuse", mostly because they are ignorant of the facts surrounding the change to Sunday in the first place.

It is ludicrous to suggest one cannot accept the Sabbath and believe in a Sunday resurrection.

[miz3]

To pkrause and ClubV12.

I am in agreement with you. I have been a Sabbath keeper and have also believed in the Sunday Resurrection for a long time.

However, I find this discussion interesting. Up to now I have only been a reader.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

It's a very good thing that Jesus didn't live and be crucified in Alaska...

[ClubV12]

Eh eh, I have no idea how that would complicate matters, but I did get a chuckle out of it. :)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Eh eh, I have no idea how that would complicate matters, but I did get a chuckle out of it.

just my offbeat sense of humor... sunrise/sunset ... long nights/short days in winter and spring..

How was "time" ascertained back in the time of Christ?

[CoAspen]

....Good question....when the sun was observed to set and then to arise, maybe? What if you were in a mountain valley? Sun rise and set does seem to be rather relative to location, not as if the earth were flat..ya know!!

[ClubV12]

Oh,,, well that IS complicated! So much for sunrise/sunset for a sabbath!

Hmmmm, how do folks in the months long nights or days area of the earth handle that issue?

Joseph Bates had a solution! His early position was that it should be based on the clock and have a set time.

[John317]

...Then there is the confusion over how early Christian tradition saw the Last Supper as being Tuesday night,

Do you have any particular names or sources in mind? Was this early tradition consistent?

[John317]

... one can't accept the Sabbath and also accept Sunday as the day of resurrection.

Can you show this from the Bible?

The following are accurate translations. I believe the evidence is that Jesus rose some time between midnight Sunday and shortly before dawn, while it was still dark. In the Jewish reckoning, that would make 3 days, since a part of a day represented a full day.

John 20:1-2

Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. [2] So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him."

Matthew 28:1-2

Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. [2] And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it.

[John317]

...It is ludicrous to suggest one cannot accept the Sabbath and believe in a Sunday resurrection.

Yes, indeed. It can be proved by scientific experiment, since there are millions and millions of people who do accept the Sabbath and believe in a Sunday resurrection. In fact, it would be fair to say that very few of them don't.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

...It is ludicrous to suggest one cannot accept the Sabbath and believe in a Sunday resurrection.

Yes, indeed. It can be proved by scientific experiment, since there are millions and millions of people who do accept the Sabbath and believe in a Sunday resurrection. In fact, it would be fair to say that very few of them don't.

So millions and millions of people just MUST be correct in their thinking because it is millions and millions of people doing the thinking?

Come on, John, get real. On this level of thought as long as the majority believes a certain thing then THAT is the truth.

Joseph Geobbels famous quote still rings true: "If you say a lie loud enough and long enough it eventually becomes the truth."

[ClubV12]

When Constantine ordered the first "Sunday" laws in 3rd century AD it was to honor the "venerable day of the sun". It was offering an "olive branch" to idol worshipers to join christianity. For christians, it was a way to separate themselves from Jewish worshipers who still observed Saturday. There are other reasons.

Look up the history, what you won't find is a reason or an excuse based on the resurrection. It was a weak argument then and remains a weak argument today. That is a relatively modern idea largely successful because people don't know history. It's nothing more than a modern convenient excuse, for some. My experience has been it's an idea falling out of favor, using the resurrection to justify Sunday worship. It's to obvious a lie, intelligent people aren't so easily fooled these days.

The Catholic church is about as "honest" as it get's when it comes to Sunday worship. They claim responsibility and make no apologies for it. They say it is a demonstration of their power to change or appoint laws for God. They also point to the millions of people who believe in Sunday worship as evidence of their power to do so. They could care less WHY you think they changed the day of worship, pagan holiday, Sun day, resurrection day, nailed to the cross, whatever works for you.

So musicman, why do YOU think the day of worship was changed from Saturday to Sunday, and by whom?