Sin Will Never Rise Again

[teresaq]

What do you think?

If God "punishes" by personally raining fire down from heaven?

(We need to remember He will be down here, not in heaven at the time, maybe...)

or

If we see the consequences of sin, as in watching the people self-destruct?

So which would ensure that sin will not arise again, ever, in God's universe?

This is an opinion-based discussion. What would make the most sense to you.

[phkrause]

Your second chose is definitely the way I see it. As I see what's going on in this world, why would we want that again in the earth made new?

[CoAspen]

Neither one for me.

[Tom Wetmore]

I don't think either choice will ensure that sin will never rise again in God's universe.

All the evidence that we have thus far demonstrates that watching others suffer punishment does little to deter others from doing bad things. Consider the range of possible reactions to watching an execution. Most are negative which seems inconsistent with life in paradise. I think rising high on the list is fear which seems to run afoul of the prevailing concept that perfect love eliminates fear. Keeping that fear alive does keep people in obedience, of a sort. But that hardly seems a good formula for eternal peace and happiness. Whatever a perfectly loving God does as a final solution to sin must not leave people fearful.

Having a knowledge of the consequences of sin comes a bit closer to setting an example not to follow. But the evidence we have in the history of the world does not seem too encouraging that this is an effective tool to keep others from making the same mistakes themselves. We don't even have a good track record of learning from our own mistakes.

Both alternatives presume these negative consequences of sin be ever in the mind of all, those who experienced them and those who come into existence afterwards. How will this knowledge of good and evil be infused into new beings? If God resumes his creative impulse to make new worlds, what will he do to avoid the disaster that planet earth experienced?

In other discussions we have wrestled with the importance of freedom of choice in the context of a love relationship. To truly love one has to have the alternative available. I think that unless God eliminates our free will, the possibility will exist that sin could rise again. What God has in mind to override or modify that seems out of reach of my thinking. Will he take that away? Sounds like giving up freedom in exchange for safety and security...

[abelisle]

...getting safety and security by giving up freedom...

Gee - where have I heard this before

Alex

[teresaq]

I see your point, Tom, regarding newly created beings.

I wonder, tho...When Satan sinned nothing really bad happened even tho there was slander and alienation...When Adam and Eve sinned, nothing still really bad had happened, tho bad did happen eventually. I mean, there wasn't a clear connect between not trusting God and obeying Him and the murder of Abel, the first really devastating event.

The rest of us were born with both a sinful nature to contend with as well as a devil who makes suggestions so we eventually go "wrong" either out of curiosity or a rebellious mind. I wonder if the lack of those things would make a difference to an innocent being when the horror of sin is described to them?

[Sonny]

Well, for one, all those who are translated will not have a sinful, human nature. They will also have a knowledge of the consequences of sin and it's effects on mankind.

You see sin is a deceiver, it would be impossible for sinful man to fully realize his condition unless God revealed it to him.

Sin comes natural to us fallen humans. The love of self (as opposed to agape love) comes natural. It is spontaneous.

The Bible tells us that everything in this world, be it politics, education, commerce, sports, etc., is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, all that is in the world (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

We are born preoccupied with ourselves. Even the so-called good things we do is for the advancement of self. That's what iniquity is - it's agape love, bent back to self.

You see before the fall there was no iniquity in Adam's life. His love (agape) flowed outward. His motive was to live totally for others. He loved Eve more than himself.

Now notice what happened after the fall - the moment Adam's nature became sinful:

(Read Gen 3:12 )

What are they doing? Placing the blame on something or someone else!

Everything is this world is based in deceit! Everything is base on iniquity - especially the so called good things humans do. Nothing is unconditional - it's all done for self-centered, egocentric motives.

When Lucifer came up with the concept of self-love it sounded wonderful. It looked good on paper, but when put into practice it's not so wonderful after all. What has six-thousand years of Lucifer's love of self done to the world and mankind? Death & destruction.

Why will the love of self never rise again? Because the whole universe will have then fully realized the results of iniquity.

[BobRyan]

Certainly it is true that sinless beings like Lucifer, Adam, Eve and the saints once they get to heaven - are not naturally inclined to sin the way we are on earth with our sinful natures.

But God sovereignly chose to create a free-will universe - and freewill is compelled to draw a certain conclusion - primarily by compelling evidence.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

OK. Once sin is destroyed, as has been observed, all will have a sinless nature. That alone gives no assurance of sin never arising since sin first arose in the heart of a sinless being, Lucifer, and the first humans to sin, were created perfect and given sufficient warning of what would happen if they did not heed God's instruction.

The suggestion is that the difference of the future will be the witness of the destruction of sinners and the knowledge of earth's history of sin. Is that memory and history going to be kept as a permanent record for eternity to remind everyone that if anyone turns away from God this is what will happen? WIll newly created worlds and beings be given a crash course in the history of sin so they too have this as part of their mental data of what not to do? How often will all that have to be reviewed so as to not let anyone forget? After a billion years of eternity, how much of a memory of sin will remain in the universe? Wouldn't the consequences of sin have to be kept fresh in the mind of all the universe forever?

Will that be enough? Will that simply motivate people to bow before God out of fear?

How will God restore love without fear?

[Sonny]

Yes, but it was all on paper, if you will....Agape vs the love of self. The love of self sounds wonderful, until put in to practice. In heaven, with open eyes, we shall see the results of iniquity. That's why it won't happen a 2nd time.

(See LHU 325)

[Parade Orange]

there will be all the youngins who died before the ages of accountability in heaven

perhaps even aborted and miscarried and stillborns as well!

heaven will be filled with children

us included!

i believe the millinium will educate us!

the children[and us] will grow up in knowledge of sin!

where it started

how A JUST AND LOVING GOD dealt with it

what it COST JESUS AND THE GOD FAMILY

to us and our families and the cost of the fallen angels!

sin wont arise cause all in the universe will come to the conclusion that sin must never happen again in eternity forward

its a choice that is made by all by free thinking creations

who reason and ponder with utmost clarity

[Gail]

You know what I like? An excited, positive post that uses LOTS of exclamation points! Especially if it praises God-

Thanks for making my day :)

[Parade Orange]

thanku for such uplifting words to me!

lol

there are things in the bible that really excite me

and contemplating eternity with freewill creatures with out sin is definitely one of them

GOD's glory and What HE did for us to solve the sin problem will be our science and song and what ultimately has all creation both saved and fallen acknowledge JUST AND TRUE ARE THY WAYS O LORD!

[Gail]

Amen and amen!!! Praise God again! I love to read words of praise lifted up! Thank you so much!

I am excited too, can't you tell? \0/

[phkrause]

Great post Parade Orange, and welcome back good to see you, its been a while since your last post.

[Parade Orange]

oh thanku

its nice to be welcomed back

BTW im known as the thread killer lol

sometimes peeps are speechless after they get a whiff of me

[Tom Wetmore]

All's still alive and well here...

[Ellen]

Just thinking about all the other worlds who didn't yield to Satan for yea many eternities. It will be like that after the elimination of sin again as I see it.

[teresaq]

I appreciated your thoughts, sonny.

------

A thought comes to me reading through these posts.

In these discussions, and controversies over which is right or wrong, has heaven, the glories of heaven, the peace of the other worlds, come up?

All we have ever known is sin. We have never seen heaven, except vaguely in our imagination. Most all who have ever lived here will be alive at the same time. Both classes will see the difference between here and what there is of heaven in the New Jerusalem. The righteous more so than the lost because they will have had 1000 years already. The other class will soon die eternally so the difference won't matter as much to them.

Keeping Tom's point in mind about the newly created after the fact, for those who lived through this earth, as well as those who never sinned, as Ellen brought up, will the contrast between heaven and watching the lost turn on and destroy each other help ensure sin will never rise again?

On this earth "time" does dim memories. Will it in heaven?

And how about the cross? Hmmm, why hasn't that come up, or has it and I missed or overlooked it? Jesus bears the scars for eternity. In this case "time" will not make the scars less visible. When we see them, and when the newly created see them and ask, how did you get those?, is that what will ensure sin will never rise again?

Guess I just talked myself into the last view, but I think the others play into it also.

[fccool]

I believe that problem posed in the original question stems from misunderstanding of sin. Sin is so abstract in terms of definition, that if you ask a person on a street what it is, I think they'd have a very difficult time answering that.

If we take a aggregate definition from both OT and NT, sin is a violation of natural law, which results in "missing the mark".

I don't like when people use the term "sin", because it's very non-descriptive and vague. It paints different pictures in different minds, based on personal experience of people. For some it may invoke images of sexual perversion and homosexuality, for some lack of religious experience, for some more extreme forms ... such as murder and rape. Yet, I don't believe that these are "sin" as God sees these. Sure, all of these are terrible things, but these really not the essence of "sin".

I'll give you one example that may help you to understand what I'm talking about. I'm a fan of sci-fi, with StarGate being of the shows that I like. In one of the episodes, a mistake in calculations resulted in a shuttle crush with one of the crew members being pinned under a heavy structure, removing which would essentially kill him. So, the guy is in immense amount of pain. No-one can do anything about it, and they have limited amount of time to get off the planet... so essentially they are helpless in the situation.

The pinned guy urges everyone to leave, except for the captain. And, as you may have guessed, he pleads captain to end his life... and captain, with does, fully understanding the detrimental effects it will have on his conscience and well-being.

The point of the story is to demonstrate that what we think in terms of "sin" is a relative concept. We only think of effects of sin, and not of sin itself, which what creates this "relative sin". We think of sin as murder, rape, breaking sabbath, fornication, theft, and etc... In reality these are only effects, and results. These are not "sin", which is the cause.

The underpinning of all sin is essentially the lack of love. In love there's no sin in terms of law revolves around love, and it makes exceptions for love. Now, not in terms of "I love you, so let's have sex with no consequences" type of deal. I'm talking more in terms of the illustration I gave.

From objective point of view, with little understanding of what's going on, we can see the captain committing a sin of murder. Yet, this action is done in love, at a great loss to captain's sanity... which he has to cope with. It's a very fine line in terms of judging the right and wrong... but in the end it's a concept of loving other at great loss to ourselves, as opposed to exploiting other for a gain for ourselves. Eventually, every other concept revolves around the idea of loving others, because you can't love in any other way. We miss quite a bit by trying to please God through our "obedience", and song singing... if we have no love for people around us.

The final point is ... I don't believe that God merely forces us to behave in certain way. Neither he scares or guilts us by constantly reminding of the consequences and "He died for you" type of appeal. Heaven (and New Earth) is not a place for ambitious people who's understanding revolves around self-exaltation and exploiting other. They will not be happy there.

[fccool]

There's a russian film called "Kin Dza Dza". You should check it out on video.google.com with subtitles sometimes. It gives some great parallels for the idea and mentality. The plot is fairly straightforward. A couple of guys from earth accidentally get transported to a different edge of the galaxy to a planet where greed and corruption exceed any imaginable limits... to the point of being comedic.

The inhabitants turned all of the oceans into fuel, and then convert the fuel back to water as needed. Their planet is now continuous desert, yet they still live to exploit the only thing they now can - each other. And they do it by setting up the colored pants system. If you have yellow pants, then people have to squat twice, slap their face and say "coo". If you have orange pants, they have to do it 8 times, and if you have have red... then they have to do other stupidity.

So, when the two heroes of the film found a way to get back home, they invite a couple of inhabitants back with them (the parallel is Soviet Communism Equality) to earth. And when they describe the abundance and equality they experience on earth, the aliens simply refuse to go, because for them life looses meaning if there's no society that would not praise them because of the color of the pants they wear.

So, essentially that made "sin" and "Heaven" ideas a lot easier to imagine for me. Where there's sin, there's constant degradation and strife. There's lack of community, and constant exploitation by playing on fear, or pandering to pleasure, control, and power. Heaven is an opposite of that. It's abundance through community, collaboration, and collective experience that results from understanding and applying love. It's not forced. And you only go there if you really want to STAY there and live in such environment. And, I think you only would, if you understood how it works.

[teresaq]

Since I don't see the options as based on that kind of fear or guilt I am having a hard time understanding you and Tom's point regarding that.

We don't step in front of speeding cars or trains unless we want to die. That isn't "fear", at least not the wrong kind of fear, but a sane knowledge of the consequences.

We have all heard the story, true or not, about the scarred mother whose son asks why she has the scars. He loves hearing how his mother acquired those scars in saving him from the fire.

As for guilt, I'm fairly positive that we are in agreement that Jesus doesn't guilt us. We can definitely use the cross to try and guilt/manipulate others into what we want, but I believe Jesus would be more stating facts. I know, for me, growing up in the SDA system it was all about manipulating. So and so this so you should, so and so that so you shouldn't. I hated that. Just give me the facts and let me make up my own mind. But I get off point.

As for sin, I do see your point. Because of its vagueness the definition I came up with that works for me is, whatever I do that hurts myself or another. Someone suggested I tack on "needlessly", but I think it could still be read in according to the character of one.

[teresaq]

Regarding the manipulation tactics, I know others of my age group who had the same experience in their various churches so it seems to be more the mentality of people in general.

[Aliensanctuary]

Unless God wishes to see the cycle of evil/no evil repeated forever, he might make it impossible for evil, that is, rebellion against him and his laws, to exist. To me, scripture indicates that instead of written laws that have little or no power to prevent disobedience, God will embed, or program his laws into the minds of his servants (us) so that it will be impossible to rebel against his rule, or even conceive it. His laws will become instinct to those so programmed.

Like some birds, animals, and insects are biologically programmed to migrate seasonally, so to will the redeemed conduct themselves in ways pre-determined by God. Thus, they will always obey him, and never harm themselves, or others, because the sense of self no longer exists. This will protect the universe from evil, forever, if all are one with God.

[Parade Orange]

the LAW OF LOVE WILL BE KEPT CAUSE WE WILL LOVE GOD WITH ALL OUR EVERYTHINGs AND OTHERS AS OUR SELVES

THE LAW of LOVE

WILL BE WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS

LOVE IS NOT FORCED OR COMMANDED

IT WILL ALWAYS BE OUR CHOICE

always

and for infinty beyond forever we will not give self/ego/sin a moment in our hearts

cause the GOD that died for u will always be in our presence and with that PRESENCE His SACRIFICE will be ever before us that IMBUES our hearts/minds with eternal grateful love

We will be ambassadores/Children of the HEAVENLY KING tellING the STORY OF SALVATION thru ceaseless ages to un numberal planets in the endless Universe!!!

the VIOLENT EVIL BLOW OUT of a father of lies

that literaly tore earth and heaven up and costed unutterable woes was witnessed by all at the JUDGEMENT

forever changing all HIS CREATION'S hearts and minds

before evil hosts of billions of intelligent ,pondering,creative created beings ( if not more )

only new GOOD!

only GOD FAMILY (FatherSonHolySpirit)

new good n evil

now for eternity heaven and earth and countless creations

knows good and evil either by watching it unfold for thousands of years or experiencing it first hand

wow

and that my friends is how sin will not arise any more