Fallacies used against Paul

[Ron Amnsn]

Please be specific as to what you believe that I wrote that is not found in Scripture. If there is something that is not Scriptural I would like to know about it so I can revise my position. I am always willing to learn.

A large portion of what is said and written on this forum and in Christian circles consists of personal opinions, theories, and man-made doctrines that cannot be confirmed in Scripture. It's not that those opinions are necessarily contrary to Scripture, it's just that they deal with topics on which the Scriptures are silent or which the Scriptures leave open. For example the Scriptures do not specify whether or not it's okay to read the news on Sabbath.

In your post you asserted things about different classifications of Scripture-- things that the Scriptures themselves do not say about different classifications of Scripture. So your assertions cannot be confirmed in Scripture. It doesn't mean that your assertions are unScriptural, it just means they are the teachings of men and should be treated accordingly. Since they deal with issues on which the Scriptures are silent, they probably have little or no importance in the larger scheme of life.

[Dr. Rich]

Ron, you really don't get it do you!??? It is NOT my writings that are important--it is the writings of the eyewitnesses of Jesus' ministry. I have NEVER (so get that nonsense out of your head that I have my own gospel) said that my writings are on par with the eyewitnesses! All I have ever done is point out the difference between hearsay evidence and court accepted evidence from the eyewitnesses! That's IT!

What Musicman said just before is exactly the same words of mine. That my friend is UNITY! So PLEASE STOP your false testifying about me and my words. What you have done is a violation on one of the very commandments that are necessary for searching for and finding the real truth.

I ask again, "Why does anyone need another word from anyone other than the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses to understand how salvation works? It is my opinion -- you don't! When you take the words of Jesus you will find that they agree 100% with the Law and the Prophets.

When Jesus said "It is finished", He had not yet died and been resurected and neither was sin ever done away with. When He said these words, what He said was totally true about what needs to be known about how salvation works. What was finished was His testimony. Nuff said!

[Ron Amnsn]

So PLEASE STOP your false testifying about me and my words. What you have done is a violation on one of the very commandments that are necessary for searching for and finding the real truth.

It appears that in your haste, you have not read carefully what I have written.

I think I'd need to know which of my words are "false testifying" in order to repent and reform.

[Ron Amnsn]

I ask again, "Why does anyone need another word from anyone other than the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses to understand how salvation works? It is my opinion -- you don't!

[Dr. Rich]

Ron wrote: "I agree that the life and words of Jesus were in complete agreement with the whole Law of Moses and with the Prophets. If not, he wouldn't be the Messiah. However, your own words and teachings are not in complete agreement with the Law and the Prophets, therefore you are teaching something different than what Jesus taught."

Hey Ron, what do you call "scripture"? What did Jesus call "Scripture"? What did Paul call "Scripture"?

Since you said that I am teaching something different than what Jesus taught, please be specific because I sure don't want to teach anything that is different than what Jesus taught! It's your job to set me straight.

And by the way, I was NOT quoting what Jesus said, I simply said what I did and it was not a quote of Jesus.

As for this, Jesus said the reason He was born was to testify to the truth. He did not say that the reason he was born was to die for anyone's sin or remove any sin from anyone. He also didn't say that He would use His robe to cover up anyone's sin and He sure didn't say that that anyone must die daily. He never said that anyone could be adopted into the Kingdom of Heaven or the family of God.

He never said that all of Israel would be saved. He never said that there were two ways for salvation, one for the Jews and another for the gentiles.

He never said that anyone should be a pastor or leader of a church. AND He never came down to this earth to convert Saul since that would show Jesus lied to His own disciples. He also never said "My Grace is sufficent for you" as that also would have been a lie and Jesus did NOT lie!

Jesus never gives anyone a 'messenger of Satan' (demon). He never, ever gave anyone over to Satan in order to save his soul. Jesus did NOT ever deceived anyone by becoming something other than what He was as did Paul as found in 1Cor.19-22. In fact, Jesus NEVER used a lie to make Him glorified as Paul said he did in Rom. 3:7. And He never said that God's grace was a free gift. And Jesus never said that one could become baptized for the dead.

Want more? Just let me know.

[Buzzards]

On 5/9/2011 at 6:22 PM, Ron Amnsn said:

 

 

On 5/9/2011 at 9:42 PM, Ron Amnsn said:

Fallacy: A Portion as the Whole

All of Paul's letters were written to congregations and people who had already been taught extensively by Paul or by leaders who knew Paul, so there was no need for Paul to include in those letters everything he had already taught them in person. Among the things that Paul did not include in his letters are his basic discipleship program for new believers and a complete explanation of his theology.

 

Posters Acts ch 15 ?????

Paul did not need to preach Moses nor the Prophets ,
for as James says

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them,
which from among the Gentiles are turned to God..
...
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Sabbath and Moses was not an issue till years later, 3-4-5 centuries
all Paul needed to do was; teach them Christ the promised Messiah

1Cor.1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:
not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect

Rev. 2:1
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write..
..
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee,
because thou hast left thy first love.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent,

Paul was not sent to ""Church Build""" ;
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:
the Jewish Synagogues were already there
well established;
Paul was sent to them, to give give a Message, court the Bride, make arrangements for the Bridegroom
and prepare the way for the coming of Christ, not take Christ to Babylon
ie: Gen.24:8

And the servant said unto him,
Peradventure the woman will not be willing to follow me unto this land
must I needs bring thy son again unto the land from whence thou camest?

6 And Abraham said unto him,
Beware thou that thou bring not my son thither again.
..
Abraham said
8 And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee,
then thou shalt be clear from this my oath:
only bring not my son thither again.

The SDA was called to take a message to the world,
not build another "Church" patterned after the Harlot Daughters of Jerusalem

 

 

[Musicman1228]

There is another fallacy that is used by Pauline apologists, that allows them to NOT see that Paul is EXACTLY who he (himself) says he is, and it is this: that Paul 'didn't really mean THAT, it MUST mean something else, we just don't know WHAT it is.

Example:

Gal 1:6  I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Gal 1:7  which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8  But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Gal 1:9  As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Gal 1:10  For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

On one hand Paul says that he is preaching a 'different' gospel other than the Gospel preached by the eyewitness disciples of the Jerusalem Church. And this gospel that is SO bad that even if an 'angel from heaven' should preach it to you, that you should CURSE them. Can an 'angel FROM HEAVEN ever preach a gospel that is NOT the TRUE gospel of the Kingdom? On the OTHER hand Paul turns right around and says that it is really NOT a different gospel that he is preaching, it is just OTHERS (in the Jerusalem church) that are SAYING that it is different, although it really is not.

Then Paul finishes by saying "Am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ".

Yet in 1Corinthians Paul says EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE:

1Co 9:19  For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.

1Co 9:20  To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

1Co 9:21  to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

1Co 9:22  To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

Here Paul goes out of his way to say that he IS trying to please men; therefore, can we say that because of this Paul cannot be a bond-servant of Christ?

Paul constantly is speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Christians that WANT to believe Paul simply will not say that Paul MEANT to say these things, it is simply that we don't understand what Paul was saying, because he was SO brilliant that it is impossible to truly understand what he meant.

[Buzzards]

2 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

There is another fallacy that is used by Pauline apologists, that allows them to NOT see that Paul is EXACTLY who he (himself) says he is, and it is this: that Paul 'didn't really mean THAT, it MUST mean something else, we just don't know WHAT it is.

Example:

 

Gal 1:8  But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Gal 1:9  As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Gal 1:10  For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

 

Paul constantly is speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Christians that WANT to believe Paul simply will not say that Paul MEANT to say these things, it is simply that we don't understand what Paul was saying, because he was SO brilliant that it is impossible to truly understand what he meant.

Galations  === the church of /  in Pergamos write

Rev.2:13

I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is:

and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith,

even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr,

who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth...

...

To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna,

and will give him a white stone

 

[Buzzards]

2 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

There is another fallacy that is used by Pauline apologists, that allows them to NOT see that Paul is EXACTLY who he (himself) says he is, and it is this: that Paul 'didn't really mean THAT, it MUST mean something else, we just don't know WHAT it is.

Example:

 

Gal 1:10  For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

 

Paul constantly is speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Christians that WANT to believe Paul simply will not say that Paul MEANT to say these things, it is simply that we don't understand what Paul was saying, because he was SO brilliant that it is impossible to truly understand what he meant.

For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Numbers 19:1
And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD hath commanded, saying,
Speak unto the children of Israel,
that they bring thee
#1:a red heifer
#2: without spot,
#3: wherein is no blemish,
#4: and upon which never came a yoke:

Do you think Paul was """YOKED"" to other men ?????

 

[Musicman1228]

50 minutes ago, Buzzards said:

For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Numbers 19:1
And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD hath commanded, saying,
Speak unto the children of Israel,
that they bring thee
#1:a red heifer
#2: without spot,
#3: wherein is no blemish,
#4: and upon which never came a yoke:

Do you think Paul was """YOKED"" to other men ?????

 

The primary issue in the text you quoted from Num. 19 is that JESUS, as the Passover Lamb, was completely sinless, and was NOT yoked to sin. Paul is 'yoked' to the lie that salvation comes through grace, which is activated by faith. Jesus the Son of God NEVER TAUGHT THIS concept anywhere in His teachings to His own eyewitness disciples WHILE HE WAS HERE ON EARTH IN THE FLESH. It is for this reason that Paul is so adamant that he did not receive ANYTHING from the 'so called pillars', who were of 'high reputation' (Gal.2:9), that heard the true gospel from the very lips of Jesus, the Son of MAN. 

Gal 1:12  For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Here Paul confirms that the gospel he received was NOT through 'man', even though Jesus WAS a man when HE testified to the truth (John 18:36-37), and when He gave that testimony to His disciples (men and women) while He was here on the earth IN THE FLESH. Paul says he got his information through a vision of Jesus Christ.  So in this Paul completely rejects the testimony that Jesus gave while He was here on earth, in the flesh. If this is true then there was NEVER any reason for Jesus to show up on earth in the first place, certainly not to come to teach truth to the world. Of what purpose was this if all Jesus needed to come to do was simply 'die for our sins', as Paul suggests. This is why Paul adamantly asserted the primacy of 'his' gospel over that of Jesus, because any gospel that was different from 'his' gospel, that was given 'in the flesh' could not possibly be the correct and same gospel that he received in vision. Indeed, it was not the same gospel in any form.

John, who was an eyewitness disciple of Jesus, said that anyone that denied the message that Jesus brought while He was 'in the flesh' was a deceiver:

2Jn 1:7  For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

2Jn 1:8  Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

2Jn 1:9  Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Many make the mistake of pointing out that Paul did not deny that Jesus was a man that lived on earth. But that is not the issue. The question is, 'what did Jesus come to earth to do?'

Again, many will answer incorrectly that the primary purpose for which Jesus came to earth was to 'die for the sins of the world', because this is taught by Paul. They will cite John 3:16 as the centerpiece for the doctrine that Jesus came to save the world, by adding in their minds, "For God so loved the world that HE gave His only begotten Son TO DIE FOR MY SINS . . .".  This would also be incorrect, because Jesus in His own words said this:

Joh 18:37  Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

When in front of Pilate, Jesus had the perfect opportunity to tell the listening world that He came to save them from (in) their sins, so don't worry about doing anything to earn salvation, that "I will do it all FOR you, you don't have to do anything except say, "Jesus, I accept you as my personal savior, and I will save you." But Jesus did not say this. Why?

This is why many years AFTER Paul wrote his letters, and even after John wrote Revelation, John wrote this:

2Jn 1:7  For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

2Jn 1:8  Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

2Jn 1:9  Anyone who goes too far (beyond) and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

John KNEW who Paul was, and who he worked for. John could see with his own eyes what was happening to the message that Jesus brought to this earth that was the gospel of the Kingdom, that it was being usurped by a counterfeit gospel, through a counterfeit holy spirit, that was different than that which he had heard from the Master's lips. He could see that a 'Deceiver' had come into the world, a person that was 'anti-Christ', and that taught a 'different' gospel that did come not by way of words spoken to him and his fellow disciple by Jesus, but by this 'apostle' that taught a 'lawless' gospel (Matt. 24:11), an 'apostle' that had never met Jesus, had never heard Him teach, and had NEVER SEEN HIM IN THE FLESH, and did not have a clue as to what He (Jesus) actually looked like.

How would Saul have know who it was that threw him off of his horse and blinded him on the road to Damascus? Paul NEVER SAW the being that accosted him, because he was blinded by a bright light. Paul only HEARD a voice that CLAIMED to be Jesus. So what was Paul to do; he was now blind and helpless. So of course Paul was (by his own words) compelled to believe. Does God EVER force His will on anyone, in order to get them to choose Him? NEVER!

Paul NEVER acknowledged that the information about salvation that he received came from the Jesus that walked this earth, who had taught the gospel of the Kingdom that He heard directly from His Father. Paul always referred to his own 'visions' as the source for his message, and he got ANGRY with those (the eyewitness disciples) that called him on his teaching of a 'different' gospel. 

 

[Buzzards]

22 minutes ago, Musicman1228 said:

The primary issue in the text you quoted from Num. 19 is that JESUS, as the Passover Lamb, was completely sinless, and was NOT yoked to sin.

Musicman says

Num. 19 is that JESUS, as the Passover Lamb

__________________________________________________________

Numbers 19:1
And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD hath commanded, saying,
Speak unto the children of Israel,
that they bring thee
#1:a red heifer
#2: without spot,
#3: wherein is no blemish,
#4: and upon which never came a yoke:

ahhh; Musicman; Christ was not a Fe-male; But the "Bride" is; have you never read Song of Solomon ??????????????????

 

[Buzzards]

Nor did they ever refer to Christ as  Lye Soap
Numbers 19:1
And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD hath commanded, saying,
Speak unto the children of Israel,
that they bring thee
#1:a red heifer
#2: without spot,
#3: wherein is no blemish,
#4: and upon which never came a yoke:
 

Quote

 

God’s Soap Recipe
by Kyle Butt, M.Div.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apco...13&article=517

When Old Testament instructions are compared to the New Testament explanations for those actions, it becomes clear that many of the ancient injunctions were primarily symbolic in nature. For instance, when the Passover Lamb was eaten, none of its bones was to be broken. This symbolized the sacrifice of Christ, Whose side was pierced, yet even in death escaped the usual practice of having His legs broken (John 19:31-37).

At first glance, the water of purification sounds like a hodge-podge of superstitious potion-making that included the ashes of a red heifer, hyssop, cedar wood, and scarlet wool. But this formula was the farthest thing from a symbolic potion intended to “ward off evil spirits.” On the contrary, the recipe for the water of purification stands today as a wonderful example of God’s brilliance, since the recipe is nothing less than a procedure to produce an antibacterial soap.

 

 

 

 

 

[Buzzards]

Song of Solomon 4:1

Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair;

thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks:

thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn,

which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins,

and none is barren among them.

Eph.5:26

even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

That he might present it to himself a glorious church,

not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing;

but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Titus 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done,

but according to his mercy he saved us,

by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

[Musicman1228]

3 hours ago, Buzzards said:

Song of Solomon 4:1

Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair;

thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks:

thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn,

which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins,

and none is barren among them.

Eph.5:26

even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

That he might present it to himself a glorious church,

not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing;

but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Titus 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done,

but according to his mercy he saved us,

by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

I find it very interesting that you cite three passages from sources that have no standing when viewed from the words of Jesus. Song of Solomon is NOT part of the Law and the Prophets that Jesus confirmed in Matt. 5:17 as what He used to prove the theology of the gospel of the Kingdom. Ephesians is a Pauline letter that does nothing to support what Jesus taught as the gospel of the Kingdom. In fact, none of Paul's work is exactly the same as the testimony of Jesus. Titus is in that same category.

Again, you misunderstand what I said about the Holy Spirit, either purposely or not. I never said that Jesus was female, and if you don't know that you are not very observant of what I have said. So I will clarify it for you in a very short and specific way: God created MANKIND (Srong's-H120, the species) in THEIR own image (Elohiym-Strong's H430, plural), MALE and FEMALE (Gen. 1:26-27). Therefore, according to THEIR own words, God has characteristics of both the MALE and the FEMALE. So if there is a part of God that is the Father, and a part of God that is the Son, which part of the God head would have the characteristics of a Mother? The HOLY SPIRIT is the entity that gives birth to the 'rest of her offspring' in Rev. 12:17. Jesus told Nicademus in John 3:3,5 that is was the Holy Spirit of which a person is 'born again'. The Holy Spirit is called the 'comforter', and 'teacher'. These characteristics are commonly assigned to a Mother. When Jesus was born as a human on this earth he was born of a human female, but that woman could not have been married to God, because she was (according to Jewish law) already married to Joseph. Mary was a surrogate mother for the true parents of Jesus; God the Father, and God the Mother as seen in Rev. 12:5:

Rev 12:5  And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

This woman was a 'sign' IN HEAVEN, indicating that this is not a human woman; and Mary IS NOT in heaven, unless you believe as do the Catholics, that Mary is alive and well and interceding on behalf of Catholics before God. So you tell me, who else would the Holy Spirit represent other than the spiritual Mother of Jesus, and  the 'rest of her offspring'?

[Buzzards]

5 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

I find it very interesting that you cite three passages from sources that have no standing when viewed from the words of Jesus. Song of Solomon is NOT part of the Law and the Prophets that Jesus confirmed in Matt. 5:17

Again, you misunderstand what I said about the Holy Spirit, either purposely or not. I never said that Jesus was female,

Female  ???????

yes you did; you posted, you implied that the Red Heifer (a female) was pointing to Christ

9 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

"The primary issue in the text you quoted from Num. 19 is that JESUS, as the Passover Lamb, was completely sinless, and was NOT yoked to sin."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

9 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

I find it very interesting that you cite three passages from sources that have no standing when viewed from the words of Jesus. Song of Solomon is NOT part of the Law and the Prophets that Jesus confirmed in Matt. 5:17

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ex.12:11
And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded,
your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand;
and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.

For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night,
and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast;
and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

SoS is the Bride and the Bridegroom

Millers Message

Sos 5:2
I sleep, but my heart waketh:
it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh,
saying,

Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled:
for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night

.

Words of Moses

your loins girded,
your shoes on your feet,

So; why did he not come ??????? the Bride says
Oh; No; I am not ready to leave in Haste
 

I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on?
I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them?

he was here; But I was not ready
 

My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door,
and my bowels were moved for him.
I rose up to open to my beloved; and my hands dropped with myrrh,
and my fingers with sweet smelling myrrh, upon the handles of the lock.

I opened to my beloved;
but my beloved had withdrawn himself,
and was gone:

 

 

[Buzzards]

7 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

I find it very interesting that you cite three passages from sources that have no standing when viewed from the words of Jesus. Song of Solomon is NOT part of the Law and the Prophets that Jesus confirmed in Matt. 5:17 as what He used to prove the theology of the gospel of the Kingdom.

 

Oh really

Christ saith in Matt.5:17 -18
 

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:
I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you,
Till heaven and earth pass,
one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,
till all be fulfilled.

the fullfillment of SoS 5:2

Millers Message

Sos 5:2
I sleep, but my heart waketh:
it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh,
saying,

Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled:
for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night

.
Words of Moses

your loins girded,
your shoes on your feet,

and your staff in your hand;

So; why did he not come ???????
the Bride says
Oh; No; I am not ready to leave in Haste

I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on?
I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them?

he was here; But I was not ready

My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door,
and my bowels were moved for him.
I rose up to open to my beloved; and my hands dropped with myrrh,
and my fingers with sweet smelling myrrh, upon the handles of the lock.

I opened to my beloved;
but my beloved had withdrawn himself,
and was gone:

He was here, But I was not ready to leave as Moses commanded,

----- Question -----
What happens next; according to Solomon
(and Paul)

I sought him, but I could not find him;
I called him, but he gave me no answer.

The watchmen that went about the city found me,
they smote me, they wounded me;
the keepers of the walls took away my veil from me.

 

and the Harlot Daughters of Jerusalem ask

What is thy beloved more than another beloved,
O thou fairest among women?
what is thy beloved more than another beloved,
that thou dost so charge us?

and the SDA's have no answer for them
Not a Clue

[Musicman1228]

5 hours ago, Buzzards said:

Female  ???????

yes you did; you posted, you implied that the Red Heifer (a female) was pointing to Christ

"The primary issue in the text you quoted from Num. 19 is that JESUS, as the Passover Lamb, was completely sinless, and was NOT yoked to sin."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

9 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

I find it very interesting that you cite three passages from sources that have no standing when viewed from the words of Jesus. Song of Solomon is NOT part of the Law and the Prophets that Jesus confirmed in Matt. 5:17

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ex.12:11
And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded,
your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand;
and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.

For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night,
and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast;
and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

SoS is the Bride and the Bridegroom

Millers Message

Sos 5:2
I sleep, but my heart waketh:
it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh,
saying,

Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled:
for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night

.

Words of Moses

your loins girded,
your shoes on your feet,

So; why did he not come ??????? the Bride says
Oh; No; I am not ready to leave in Haste
 

I have put off my coat; how shall I put it on?
I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them?

he was here; But I was not ready
 

My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door,
and my bowels were moved for him.
I rose up to open to my beloved; and my hands dropped with myrrh,
and my fingers with sweet smelling myrrh, upon the handles of the lock.

I opened to my beloved;
but my beloved had withdrawn himself,
and was gone:

 

 

I never once mentioned the red heifer, maybe someone else did, but it was not me. This shows that you formulate your responses to my posts even before you finish reading them. Go figure. 

Buzz, your misogyny is showing. Not surprising, since you are an ardent follower of Paul, who was, himself, a misogynist. And then to exacerbate this, your cut-and-paste theology is exactly the same kind of thing Paul uses so well to 'prove' his points. What is so difficult about making the connection between Gen.1:26-27, John 3:3,5, and Rev.12: 4-5, 17? I just don't understand your need to not allow women to have a member of the God head to which they can directly relate. There are things of the heart that women will only tell other women, and God knew this because THEY made women with that Characteristic. You would deny that beauty of the heart where a woman can talk to God as if SHE is a female friend because your errant belief that say s, 'NO, it is just not right'.  Your attitude reflects a pervasive and endemic condition inside the Christian church, where certain men believe that they should be in control of 'their women', and some (indeed) 'all' women, based on what Paul wrote; and that males can control of women against their will, because it is 'in the Bible, that allows these men to demand 'respect' they do not deserve, physical favors reluctantly given because of the threat of their overarching physical strength, and mental and emotional abuses that do not reflect the love that God has for THEMSELVES, and for ALL their creation. 

So, you go ahead and believe what you will about this subject. I simply don't care to discuss this any more with you, because I am starting to get emotional about your recalcitrance, and I refuse to get sucked into your delusions. God represents BOTH genders because THEY created HUMANITY BOTH male AND female IN THEIR IMAGE, reflecting THEIR characteristics (who they are).  If THEY (Eloheim is plural) dId not do this THEY would not be GOD. 

[Buzzards]

On 7/16/2016 at 8:33 AM, Musicman1228 said:

Buzz, your misogyny is showing. Not surprising, since you are an ardent follower of Paul, who was, himself, a misogynist. And then to exacerbate this, your cut-and-paste theology is exactly the same kind of thing Paul uses so well to 'prove' his points. What is so difficult about making the connection between Gen.1:26-27, John 3:3,5, and Rev.12: 4-5, 17? I just don't understand your need to not allow women to have a member of the God head to which they can directly relate.

Of course the Holy Ghost is represented as feminine;

Gal.4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Heb.12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Problem is; most posters do get the
Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost's (plural) confused,
There are Millions upon Millions of Holy Ghost ---
That's right Millions upon Millions, but they are not Divine
They are these, sent forth to minister to those that will be the Heirs to the Kingdom

Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels he saith,
Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
...
14: Are they not all ministering spirits,
sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

They came down at Pentecost under the command of the Comforter

Acts 2:1
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come,
they were all with one accord in one place.

And suddenly there came a sound from heaven
as of a rushing mighty wind,

Jn.3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof,
but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:
so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire,
and it sat upon each of them.

Thats the reason The Wise Man Saith

Prov.6:20
My son, keep thy father's commandment,
and forsake not the law of thy mother:

:
Are they not all ministering spirits,
sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

thats the reason Paul says

Gal.1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven,
preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you,
let him be accursed.

also beware; you do not get tricked into Worshiping them

see Rev 22:8

------------

I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant,

and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book:

worship God.

 

 

[Musicman1228]

1 hour ago, Buzzards said:

Of course the Holy Ghost is represented as feminine;

Gal.4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Heb.12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Problem is; most posters do get the
Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost's (plural) confused,
There are Millions upon Millions of Holy Ghost ---
That's right Millions upon Millions, but they are not Divine
They are these, sent forth to minister to those that will be the Heirs to the Kingdom

Hebrews 1:7
And of the angels he saith,
Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
...
14: Are they not all ministering spirits,
sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

They came down at Pentecost under the command of the Comforter

Acts 2:1
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come,
they were all with one accord in one place.

And suddenly there came a sound from heaven
as of a rushing mighty wind,

Jn.3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof,
but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:
so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire,
and it sat upon each of them.

Thats the reason The Wise Man Saith

Prov.6:20
My son, keep thy father's commandment,
and forsake not the law of thy mother:

:
Are they not all ministering spirits,
sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

thats the reason Paul says

Gal.1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven,
preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you,
let him be accursed.

also beware; you do not get tricked into Worshiping them

see Rev 22:8

------------

I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant,

and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book:

worship God.

 

 

Buzz, I don't know where you get some of the things you post, but the idea that there is a distinction between the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost is amazing, and unsupported by the texts you cite. The common usage of the term Holy Ghost is used primarily in the KJV, and is translated from two Greek words; Holy-(Strong's H40, Sacred, Holy; and Pneuma-(Strong's H4151) 'a current of air', 'breath', 'breeze', 'ghost', 'spirit'. This (more than) implies that the Spirit that comes from God is HOLY and not profane. The term 'Holy Ghost' is the early version of this, in Old English, but implies the same thing. Now, I recognize that this may just be a variation in terms, but the usage of the term Holy implies 'sacred' and 'from God'. I agree with you that there are LOTS of demons that masquerade as the Holy Spirit in making people 'believe' that what they are experiencing is coming from the true Holy Spirit. This kind of thing is prevalent in the experience of the early New Testament church, and is demonstrated by the activity of this 'spirit' in the 'day of Pentecost' incident (if this actually happened, as there is no corroborating evidence). Satan does use his fallen angels (demons, messengers of Satan, evil angels) in convincing people that things such as 'being slain in the spirit', and 'faith healing', and 'visions of dead loved ones' actually come from God, because the FEELING is so beautiful that people that experience these things cannot believe that they could possibly come from Satan-but they do. These 'ministering spirits', or 'holy ghosts', as you termed them, ARE NOT benevolent beings that are shades of the the dead that many believe have gone to heaven, and now live with Jesus. There are only 24 Elders in Heaven, and they are those that have either been translated alive in heaven, such as Enoch, or those that have died, gone into the grave, and were resurrected to be later taken to Heaven, such as Moses, Elijah, and possibly Lazarus; or those that were resurrected from the dead either before or right after the crucifixion:

Rev 4:4  Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

Mat 27:52  The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

These are the ONLY human beings that are now (today) alive in Heaven. The number 24 precludes 'millions and millions' of holy ghosts, but it does NOT preclude spiritual beings that are the 'third of the angels' that were cast off of Heaven (N'biriu?) down to earth, and consigned to the spirit world until the appointed time of the end.

So in one sense I agree with you, that there ARE beings that masquerade as 'holy ghosts', but they are (in fact) demons or evil angels, and they manifest themselves in the form of events, emotions, physical sensations, such as occurred on the day of Pentecost as seen in Acts 2. But ALL of these things are false flags, and ARE NOT the Holy Spirit, who does NOT operate in this manner. (For a true account of how the Holy Spirit was delivered to the disciples of Jesus please read John 20:19-23. This is the ONLY accurate account of the giving and receiving of the Holy Spirit.)