Was Jesus a wine bibber

[Flyboy]

Okay, this question has been bothering me for sometime. Actually, I will clarify, it's not the question itself because I don't care if Jesus drank a few glasses of wine from time to time or not. But within the last few years I discovered a verse and when I asked three or four pastors about it they didn't know of the verse and when I showed it to them they gave me an unsatisfactory answer.

Matthew 11:19: “The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”

In this verse the implication is that Jesus eats a little and is called a glutton, he drinks a little and is called a drunkard. Doesn't seem that he could be called a drunkard for imbibing innocent grape juice. But I'm not a Biblical languages scholar, does anyone know the original words for these?

And, FYI, I think that he probably did, and it doesn't bother me, but my point of asking this question is to stimulate some uncomfortable thought among the less radical among this group.

So, did he or didn't he?

[Parade Orange]

i know what u r saying

and it does look that way but i always think how my enemies perceive me and my actions.

when someone hates u no matter what u do they will see you do a good thing and spin it off looking bad or insincere

i have family members who do this to other family members and its almost comical and very tragic to behold year after year

they put the worst motives on u if u r doing good and if u screw up in any way they act like its criminal

JESUS was watched constantly and the evil spin doctors used any and every occassion to take down HIS credibility as a good man.

and they assumed it was fermented also cause unfermented grape juice flowed along with the pure juice!

they even used the term FRIEND OF SINNERS like it was the worst thing to be called!

thank GOD He is a friend of sinners!

but i digress

i believe JESUS drank WELCHS grape juice and the spin the evil people put on it was to lie and imply he drinks fermented juice to turn others away.

cause when someone does good and u hate HIM you have to fib a little cause your whole purpose is to paint a bad picture to justify your own contempt when really there is nothing going on that is wrong

[miz3]

Flyboy,

You may have something here.

It certainly appears that Jesus Christ drank wine. The Bible makes no prohibition against the drinking of fermented drink. However, the Bible is dead set against DRUNKENNESS!

Like you I am not bothered at all by Jesus Christ drinking fermented spirits.

[Flyboy]

Flyboy,

You may have something here.

It certainly appears that Jesus Christ drank wine. The Bible makes no prohibition against the drinking of fermented drink. However, the Bible is dead set against DRUNKENNESS!

Like you I am not bothered at all by Jesus Christ drinking fermented spirits.

I simply can't see another explanation. I mentioned this to a very close SDA friend a while back and he just about booted me from the books then and there. I didn't press it because generally this is the response people give when they feel threatened. I asked a pastor friend and she didn't have much to say, "I'll check into it" or something like that.

Really, while the issue of Jesus drinking should not be a big deal for Christians, it is for SDA and thus I think this issue is an important one for us to consider... if for no other reason than it being a good starting point for a re-evaluation of other hard issues. Re-evaluation doesn't necessarily suggest a change in position, but it does suggest an open and honest discussion. I'd like to see that in my denomination, it would encourage me.

[Tom Wetmore]

I think Adventists attempting to spin the Word to conform to our contemporary Adventist sensibilities lack credibility if they try to push this sort of idea off on other Christians. The end result can be that we are not taken seriously on other matters as result. Its pretty much the same as the efforts not so long ago right here of some to make Jesus out to be a vegetarian...

It is the problem of creating a God in our own image - an Adventist Jesus, sort of like the artistic renditions of Him looking rather Northern European.

Jesus was a 1st Century Jew, eating and drinking what they did and living a typical Jewish life.

He drank the wine served, which would have had a bit of alcohol in it. He turned water into the best wedding celebration wine, that would made people drunk. He took a sip of the cheap sour wine offered to him on the cross. It had a bit of alcohol in it. Should we think the hardened Roman soldiers that gave it to him from what they had with them had been drinking stuff without alcohol in it? The common practice was to give the victim a bit of alcohol to help dull the pain.

[Dr. Rich]

Isaiah 25:6: "And the Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; a banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow and refined AGED wine."

Deut. 14:26 "And you may spend the money (tithe) for whatever you heart desires, for oxen, or sheep, or WINE, or STRONG DRINK, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household."

Sounds like God enjoys a good party! (I wonder what the "choice pieces with marrow" could be?) Perhaps Vegalinks?

So, I do agree that Jesus did drink real wine and since he ate with the sinners who probably had unclean foods, Jesus probably ate that too. After all, didn't Jesus say it was NOT what goes into the mouth that defiles anyone, but what comes out?

[Gail]

The wine in those days was most likely juice of the vine in various stages of fermentation, from fresh to alcoholic.

I also have a strong hunch that Jesus kept to the fresher stuff, and that the "best" wine that He created was the freshest.

[Musicman1228]

The SDA church teaches abstinence: The Scriptures teach temperance.

[shelly]

Many SDA scholars do agree that the wine in the bible was at some point of fermentation. I think there was an article last year in Adventist Review that addressed that he wine in the bible did indeed contain alcohol but in lower amounts than it does today. In a desert environment it would be nearly impossible to have non-fermented juice after the first day. And like others have stated, the bible itself does not prohibit alcohol. It prohibits misues of alcohol. Although I do not drink, I don't believe the bible prohibits drinking alcohol provided one does not get drunk.

[Gary K]

Flyboy,

Who was responsible for the accusations against Jesus that are bothering you? His friends? Neutral parties? His enemies?

[Tom Wetmore]

Gail, that is nice to think so but not too faithful to the gospel account...

Read very carefully the comment of the steward of the wedding about the wine Jesus had brought in. He asked why was this good stuff brought out last. He said this is the wine that is usually served first until the people are drunk. And once they are drunk on the good stuff, you bring out the less good wine when they are too drunk to care or tell the difference.

[Woody]

I think Adventists attempting to spin the Word to conform to our contemporary Adventist sensibilities lack credibility if they try to push this sort of idea off on other Christians. The end result can be that we are not taken seriously on other matters as result. Its pretty much the same as the efforts not so long ago right here of some to make Jesus out to be a vegetarian...

It is the problem of creating a God in our own image - an Adventist Jesus, sort of like the artistic renditions of Him looking rather Northern European.

Jesus was a 1st Century Jew, eating and drinking what they did and living a typical Jewish life.

He drank the wine served, which would have had a bit of alcohol in it. He turned water into the best wedding celebration wine, that would made people drunk. He took a sip of the cheap sour wine offered to him on the cross. It had a bit of alcohol in it. Should we think the hardened Roman soldiers that gave it to him from what they had with them had been drinking stuff without alcohol in it? The common practice was to give the victim a bit of alcohol to help dull the pain.

Good Points Tom. Even our prophet drank a little wine when she felt a little down on occassions through the year.

[John317]

Dr. Samuele Bacchocchi wrote an excellent and thorough study on the topic of wine in the Bible. You may read it online at the following link:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7818027/Wine-in-the-Bible-unabridged-by-Samuele-Bacchiocchi

In the above book, Bacchiocchi presents convincing evidence that the wine referred to in John 2 was non-intoxicating. The author also shows that the people of that time had ways of keeping the wine from fermenting.

Jesus wouldn't have gone contrary to the Bible's teaching about wine, a teaching that He Himself inspired the Bible writers to write.

For instance, in Prov. 23: 29-35 and Prov. 31: 4-7:

Who has woe? Who has sorrow?

Who has strife? Who has complaining?

Who has wounds without cause?

Who has redness of eyes?

[30] Those who tarry long over wine;

those who go to try mixed wine.

[31] Do not look at wine when it is red,

when it sparkles in the cup

and goes down smoothly.

[32] In the end it bites like a serpent

and stings like an adder.

[33] Your eyes will see strange things,

and your heart utter perverse things.

[34] You will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea,

like one who lies on the top of a mast.

[35] They struck me," you will say, "but I was not hurt;

they beat me, but I did not feel it.

When shall I awake?

I must have another drink."

[4] It is not for kings, O Lemuel,

it is not for kings to drink wine,

or for rulers to take strong drink,

[5] lest they drink and forget what has been decreed

and pervert the rights of all the afflicted.

[6] Give strong drink to the one who is perishing,

and wine to those in bitter distress;

[7] let them drink and forget their poverty

and remember their misery no more.

Or in Eph. 5: 18--

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

1 Thes. 5:6-8

So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. [7] For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. [8] But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.

The wine Jesus made was non-intoxicating. The language doesn't require that the wine at the wedding be fermented.

[John317]

Below is documented evidence that the word "wine" in John 2 is not necessarily fermented wine but the pure juice of the grape.

The usage of the word "wine" does NOT always infer a fermented beverage. It is a generic word (meaning fermented or unfermented), not only in the old & new testaments, but also in the secular world.

The following material is just a portion of a list which comes from F. R. Lees' work, The Bible Wine Question.

Aristotle ...new wine "it is WINE in name, but not in effect..." (4th century B.C.)

Callixenus ...they "were trampling on the grapes, and the NEW-WINE (gleukos) ran out over the whole road..." (300 B.C.)

Papias ..."Each grape shall yield 21`five and twenty measures of WINE (oinos)..." (90 A.D.)

Babylonian paraphrase on Genesis 27:25 speaks of "WINE reserved in its grapes."

The Gemara speaks of "WINE preserved in its grapes."

Suidas... "GLEUKUS ...the droppings of the grapes before being trodden..." (950 A.D.)

Sir Thomas Herbert speaks of WINE gotten from wounding the Toddy Tree and catching the juice (1638 A.D.)

John Parkinson under the heading "Vines" says: "The juice or liquor pressed out of the ripe grape is called VINUM, WINE..." (1640 A.D.)

Henry Southwell speaking of martyrs said that they were "like grapes when pressed, they yield luxuriant WINE" (1660 A.D.)

Thomas Blount speaks of must as NEW-WINE, or, "that which is first pressed out of the grape." (1670 A.D.)

Edward Phillips says of must, "WINE newly pressed from the grapes (1670 A.D.)

J.W. Gent speaks of "WINE-cinder" and "cherry-WINE." The juice of the cherry is "gently pressed" and makes "a very pleasant WINE" (1676 A.D.)

W. Robertson, "WINE; Vinum ... New-WINE; Mustum - New WINE that runs out with-out pressing." (1693 A.D.)

Thomas Sprat speaks of vessels into which is put "cute or unfermented WINE." (1702 A.D.)

J.M. Gesner says: "Once for all it must be observed, that the words VINUM (wine), VITIS (vine), UVAE (grape-clusters), and VINEA (vineyard), as kindred terms are sometimes used synonymously..." and "The juice of apples, pears, pomegranates, and sorbs, was called VINUM." (1730 A.D.)

Miller's Gardener's Dictionary: "The first time they lower the great beams upon the grapes, they (the French) call the WINE that runs out the WINE of Guotte, because it is the finest and most exquisite in the grape ... The WINE strains from the press into a puncheon ... Vin Bourra, as they call it, i.e., a new and sweet white WINE that has not worked..." (1748 A.D.)

E. Chambers speaks of, "Sweet WINE" which has not yet fermented; WINE which is called "Mere-goutte," mother-drop, which is the virgin-WINE; Burnt WINE is "boiled up with sugar." (1750 A.D.)

Samuel Johnson speaks of Must as "New WINE" (1773 A.D.)

John Parkhurst tells of Ovid applying the Latin "mecum" to mean "pure WINE as it is pressed out of the grapes."

J.F. Schleusner: "OINOS; generally VINUM liquor expressed from grapes whether new or old ...OINOS neos, VINUM novum i.e., must, alias gleukos...GLEUKOS, prop erly the liquor which drops from the grape before treading." (1810 A.D.)

Gesenius (in the last edition of his lexicon, 1844): "TIROSH, must, of the juice of the grape." (1844 A.D.)

James Donegan: "GLEUKOS; new, unfermented WINE, must ...SIRAION...a WINE prepared by boiling grapes..." (1826A.D.)

Noah Webster: "Must, New WINE; wine pressed from the grape but not fermented." (1828 A.D.)

S. Lee: "Ahsis; Literally, trodden. New WINE; the juice of the grape..." (1830 A.D.)

John Avenarius has: "Ahsis - mustum, which is recently expressed juice. German susz: susur WEIN..." (1588 A.D.)

Dr. Ure: "Juice, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and in common language sweet WINE." (1836 A.D.)

H. Bullinger speaks of WINE running out of the wine-press (1573 A.D.)

Bretschneider: "Oinos neos, mustum. Sept. for ahsis and tirosh. 2...Gleukos, mustum. That which drops from the grapes before being trodden. Acts 2:13. Job 32:19 where the Hebrew is yayin." (1840A.D.)

Baron Liebig: "If a flask be filled with grape juice and made air-tight, and then kept for a few hours in boiling water. .. THE WINE does not now ferment." (1844 A.D.)

Encyclopedia Americana (1855): "The juice of the grape, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and, in common language, SWEET WINE."

[miz3]

Quote:

Really, while the issue of Jesus drinking should not be a big deal for Christians, it is for SDA and thus I think this issue is an important one for us to consider... if for no other reason than it being a good starting point for a re-evaluation of other hard issues. Re-evaluation doesn't necessarily suggest a change in position, but it does suggest an open and honest discussion. I'd like to see that in my denomination, it would encourage me.

We should be always re-evaluating. Unfortunately, I find in our SDA community a strong resistance to re-evaluation especially if such re-examining entails long held cherished views.

I also think that Tom Wetmore has brought up some particularly cogent points on this thread.

I also like what Woody pointed out about our Prophet. Yet her writings correctly advocate avoiding intemperance (drunkenness in this case).

[John317]

.. Even our prophet drank a little wine when she felt a little down on occassions through the year.

I think this statement is liable to give readers the wrong impression.

What is the evidence that she drank fermented wine when she felt a little down on occassions through the year?

[miz3]

John317,

It is clear from scripture that the Children of Israel drank fermented wine and God never tells them that doing so is and was a sin.

God does not like "drunkenness". (that's a sin)

Remember the story of Aaron's two sons who were killed in the Sanctuary by the Lord. Does God then prohibit the drinking of fermented drink, NO! God commanded that the priests must do there duty only when sober.

Also, there is this from the "Nazarene Vow":

"The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of separation to the LORD as a Nazirite, 3 he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins. 4 As long as he is a Nazirite, he must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, not even the seeds or skins."

Numbers 6:1-5.

The Bible does use the term in which the drink is indeed fermented. Playing word games with this subject has been a long standing practice within SDA circles. Let's face the Truth, the wine was fermented and Jesus appears to be apart of using the stuff.

Vinegar, is also a fermented form. Vinegar is used in many of the products we all use. Thus we are all getting a distilled spirit of some kind whether we like it or not. I was not aware that SDA have a prohibition against using "mayonnaise" which has vinegar as a big ingredient. Come to think of it so does ketchup and mustard. Stuff I have seen at many a potluck!

Whether it is direct or indirect we still get it in the fermented form.

Why do SDA have to play games with things like this. Can't we be just straight up.

Its about "QUANTITY" in this case. Too much----is a NO!, NO!

[John317]

Have you read Bacchiocchi's book, Wine in the Bible? He shows very good evidence and argument that the wine referred to in John 2 was non-intoxicating.

Do you believe that the God of heaven as a man performed a miracle at a wedding to give people intoxicating wine that would make them drunk? How many gallons are we talking about? Between 120 and 180 gallons. That's a lot of liquer if it was fermented wine.

What are the consequences of believing that Jesus Christ performed a miracle which resulted in getting people drunk?

That means the entire Godhead was involved in people becoming intoxicated with liquer.

We need to think seriously, and pray, about the evidence supporting such a belief, and we need to think seriously about whether the Bible portrays a God who would do this. Finally, what has God inspired His latter-day prophet to write about this topic?

Is the linguistic and historical evidence strong enough to warrant casting off the writings of Ellen White and believing that Jesus Christ acted contrary to His own counsel in His word by putting intoxicants to the lips of those peopele for whom He would soon shed His precious life-blood?

Of Jesus, the testimony of the Bible is:

Hebrews 1:9

You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;

therefore God, your God, has anointed you

with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

John 15:10

... I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

1 Peter 5:8

Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

[shelly]

John, the idea that if Jesus supplied wine he was promoting drunkeness is reaching. Alcohol is not the problem, it is the misuse. Even food can be used incorrectly leading to the sin of gluttoney. No one would say providing a large banquet would promote gluttoney. As stated before, intoxication is a sin. The bible never prohibits drinking without getting drunk. It is a logical argument that we should not drink. However, the bible does not support abstaining from alcohol. We need to be careful not to try to make logical conclusions into "truth". We are a bible based church. When we, like so many others, try to make the bible fit the conclusions we have already established we loose our distinctiveness.

[John317]

Consider this:

1) Neither the language nor the context shows that the wine was alcoholic.

2) There is good evidence that the people of that time used the word translated "wine" in John 2 to refer to pure grape juice.

3) Jesus made between 120 and 180 gallons of wine. How many people would that amount of liquer make drunk?

4) Does it make biblical sense that the God of heaven could make non-intoxicating wine but instead chose purposely to make liquer on which people would almost certainly get drunk?

5) The prophet of God has written clearly that it was not fermented wine.

6) The Bible's counsel is that people not drink intoxicatants. These counsels were written by the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

7) People shouldn't decide the issue until they have studied Bacchiochi's book on wine in the Bible. His book convinced me to stop drinking alcohol. I did not begin reading the book with the desire to quit drinking. I loved vodka and every other kind of liquer.

[Gail]

Gail, that is nice to think so but not too faithful to the gospel account...

Read very carefully the comment of the steward of the wedding about the wine Jesus had brought in. He asked why was this good stuff brought out last. He said this is the wine that is usually served first until the people are drunk. And once they are drunk on the good stuff, you bring out the less good wine when they are too drunk to care or tell the difference.

Except that the account doesn't say that the guests "are" well drunk. It says that they "have" well drunk. For all we know it could be that they are well into the meal/event and it's not as important that the food and drink be as perfect as when first served. It's like at a potluck- you serve the best food and drink first and then bring out the other kool-aid-flavoured watery stuff after everybody else has already had a turn at the better one.

There is a French saying that goes, "J'ai bien mangé, j'ai bien bu." (I've eaten well, I drank well.) Just because a person has well drunk doesn't necessarily mean that s/he is drunk.

It was a French Bible which taught me that there is a difference in the Bible between wine and juice, because they use a different word. In Isaiah it talks about "being drunk... as with sweet wine" The word for "sweet wine" is the word (in the Louis Segond) for grape juice, as it is in the grape, the "must". I guess you can get as drunk on juice in the Old Testament as you can in the New.

[miz3]

John, the idea that if Jesus supplied wine he was promoting drunkeness is reaching. Alcohol is not the problem, it is the misuse. Even food can be used incorrectly leading to the sin of gluttoney. No one would say providing a large banquet would promote gluttoney. As stated before, intoxication is a sin. The bible never prohibits drinking without getting drunk. It is a logical argument that we should not drink. However, the bible does not support abstaining from alcohol. We need to be careful not to try to make logical conclusions into "truth". We are a bible based church. When we, like so many others, try to make the bible fit the conclusions we have already established we loose our distinctiveness.

PERFECT!

[John317]

... We are a bible based church. When we, like so many others, try to make the bible fit the conclusions we have already established we loose our distinctiveness.

1 Thes. 5:19-22

Do not quench the Spirit. [20] Do not despise prophecies, [21] but test everything; hold fast what is good. [22] Abstain from every form of evil.

1 Thes. 5:7-8

For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. [8] But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.

Rev. 14:12

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

For those who still believe in the propheic ministry of Ellen G. White:

Quote:

At the time of the birth of John the people generally were addicted to the use of unfermented wine. At the wedding feast in Cana, Christ turned the water into wine. By a miracle he transformed the water into the pure juice of the grape. Wine is good only when it is not fermented. It is then harmless; yet, notwithstanding this, the Lord God of heaven laid down the prohibition that John was to drink neither wine nor strong drink. Unfermented wine soon became sour in Palestine, and neither sweet wine nor sour wine was to pass the lips of John. Christ knew all things; he looked down the ages to our own time, and saw what would be the condition of society in the close of the world's history. He saw thousands upon thousands perishing in the use of wine and strong drink. The world would gradually come into the same state as it was in the days before the flood. But heaven has lifted a danger signal, that men may take warning, and cooperate with God for their own self-preservation. He has given us examples of absolute abstinence, and provided instruction that, if followed, will result in the creation and preservation of the vigor, skill, and excellency of our children. {ST, April 16, 1896 par. 3}

NOTE: The historical, linguistic, and exegetical evidence supports the words of God's prophet, Ellen White. Let everyone study and be persuaded in his own mind.

[John317]

Except that the account doesn't say that the guests "are" well drunk. It says that they "have" well drunk. For all we know it could be that they are well into the meal/event and it's not as important that the food and drink be as perfect as when first served. It's like at a potluck- you serve the best food and drink first and then bring out the other kool-aid-flavoured watery stuff after everybody else has already had a turn at the better one.

There is a French saying that goes, "J'ai bien mangé, j'ai bien bu." (I've eaten well, I drank well.) Just because a person has well drunk doesn't necessarily mean that s/he is drunk.

This is exactly right. The word as it is used in John 3 means "to drink freely."

Just because the people of that day had a practice of giving the best intoxicating wine at the beginnning, and then giving the worst after everyone is drunk, does not mean that Jesus made fermented wine. All the man was saying was that people usually serve the best wine first, not last.

Another point is that if the people at this wedding were already drunk, it would mean Jesus' miracle of making 130-180 gallons of fermented wine got people even more drunk. I find it impossible to believe our heavenly High Priest did that.

[shelly]

John, the scriptures you have supplied only strengthen the argument that drukeness is the sin, not the wine. As far as the EGW quote, I cannot understand how people were addicted to non-fermented wine. Why are individuals today not addicted to grape juice. And if so, shouldn't we abstain from grape juice based on its addictive nature? I would file this under her "non-inpired" opinion. If the wine was not fermented why were decons instructed to not drink to much and elders forbidden to drink wine. If it was truely unfermented juice, why was it so important that those in positions of authority were to be drink very little or not at all. I guess EGW would chalk it up to the grape-juice addiction. Further more, if the individuals of that time were truly addicted to grape juice, why would Jesus feed their addiction at the wedding?