Discernment and The Word

[ClubV12]

WHY would I believe this Catholic document "re-discovered" in the mid 1800's and attributed to Paul is authentic?

Never mind, I don't need an answer, I don't care what the rationale is for those that believe this is an authentic Paul document. The passage of time and having not been included in the KJV renders the document irrelevant.

[Gary K]

"The common person was NOT supposed to study the scriptures for themselves."

Apparently the Shepherds in the field gaurding their flocks at the time of Jesus birth, didn't get that memo.

But granted you are correct, the common person was NOT supposed to be doing that. Those Shepherds were a bit radical I think...

Even the Pharisees looked for a Messiah to come. That a Messiah was prophecied to come was a teaching of the Pharisees. They just didn't look for a Messiah whose mission was spiritual. They wanted a military Messiah who would put the Jewish nation at the top of the worldly heap again.

All the Jews were looking for that Messiah. The evidence for that is that everyone in the Jewish nation, including Christ's disciples, misunderstood His message and His mission. The Bible makes that very clear.

So, that the shepherds were praying for the Messiah's coming is no evidence that they were looking for the correct Messiah, or that they had studied for themselves.

[Gail]

Today I was thinking of the wise men from the East (was going to type "eats"...lol ). They were looking for a King, also, but somehow they recognized in that humble babe the One they were looking for, a realisation the rabbis never came to.

Talk about discernment!

[phkrause]

If you actually believe that Paul was inspired, then please read what Paul wrote here: http://www.gnosis.org/library/visionpaul.htm

This is where the Catholic Church got their doctrine(s) from. It was in the first bibles the Universal church put together, but taken out at a later time. If you can't find anything wrong with this then so be it. I do!

So let me get this straight, you believe these guys and what they write, but you don't believe most of the NT? Makes no sense at all.

[ClubV12]

PK, is that ironic or what?

The Magi, now THAT is a fascinating study which has it's root going back to Daniel and his connection to that group!

[Bravus]

Can we *please* split off the pro- and anti-Paul stuff to another thread? It's not really on topic for this discussion.

[LifeHiscost]

Can we *please* split off the pro- and anti-Paul stuff to another thread? It's not really on topic for this discussion.

Would that not be included under the lack of discernment?

God blesses!

[Gary K]

Can we *please* split off the pro- and anti-Paul stuff to another thread? It's not really on topic for this discussion.

I would say it's right on topic for this thread....

[Tom Wetmore]

Hmmm, not sure why, but I don't recall ever connecting the Magi with Daniel or the imprint left in that area by the Israelites captivity in Babylon. But it does make sense that their source had that common root.

For me, discernment is simply wisdom. As Bravus noted earlier, it is what I also pray for frequently, claiming the promise of James 1:5.

Thinking of what wisdom is, it is about making good choices, having good judgment, common sense, being logical, being analytical, carefully weighing all the evidence, being objective, understanding what is relevant and more importantly, what is not. In short, the ability to think things through and come to the right conclusion on a matter.

And while intelligence, experience and education are a part of wisdom, there is something more that is a mystery. That is why after all I can bring to the table, I must pray for wisdom.

[BobRyan]

WHY would I believe this Catholic document "re-discovered" in the mid 1800's and attributed to Paul is authentic?

It's called "any old excuse will do" when trying to come up with some reason to downsize the Bible.

[Gail]

Great comment, Tom!

[LifeHiscost]

Hmmm, not sure why, but I don't recall ever connecting the Magi with Daniel or the imprint left in that area by the Israelites captivity in Babylon. But it does make sense that their source had that common root.

For me, discernment is simply wisdom. As Bravus noted earlier, it is what I also pray for frequently, claiming the promise of James 1:5.

Thinking of what wisdom is, it is about making good choices, having good judgment, common sense, being logical, being analytical, carefully weighing all the evidence, being objective, understanding what is relevant and more importantly, what is not. In short, the ability to think things through and come to the right conclusion on a matter.

And while intelligence, experience and education are a part of wisdom, there is something more that is a mystery. That is why after all I can bring to the table, I must pray for wisdom.

And that's a lot of wisdom. Another promise fulfilled. And as long as we make our desires known, the promises will never stop. If we have a problem with the above conclusion, we need to DRAW ON ANOTHER PROMISE.

"Then what’s the advantage of being a Jew? Is there any value in the ceremony of circumcision? Yes, there are great benefits! First of all, the Jews were entrusted with the whole revelation of God.

True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful? Of course not! Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true. As the Scriptures say about him,

“You will be proved right in what you say,

and you will win your case in court.”"Romans 3:1-4 NLT

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."Gal 3:29 KJV

"Wisdom is the principal thing; Therefore get wisdom. And in all your getting, get understanding."

Proverbs 4:6 NKJV

God blesses!

[ClubV12]

All the wise men in Nebuchadnezzar's court were ancient "Magi", from this group descended the Magi that came to Jesus. Not ALL the Magi were nice guys, but some were. Some were "evil sorcers" and such as that. Anyway, when the Magi couldn't interpret the dream he was going to have ALL of them killed. So when Daniel did interpret the dream the lives of the Magi were spared. Which substantially increased Daniel's influence and standing among them. Some say, Daniel himself then became the head Magi!

So, down through the ages the Magi and their descendants were not only aware of Daniels prophecies they had scrolls and such detailing them. Along with Balaam's prophecy about the coming Messiah, they were clearly "bible students". Not just some mystical group, they came to WORSHIP Jesus, in large part due to Daniels influence!

[Dr. Rich]

Remember that it was Daniel who saved their forfather's butts. So donca think they remembered what Daniel said and wrote down? Makes sense to me.

[Bravus]

I seem to recall that they had been reading things other than the Bible - occult and mystical texts from their own traditions - but I could be wrong about that. It could be just tradition... but I'm not sure they were reading Daniel and counting year-days... the prophecy was of a star and they followed the star.

Will head back to the Word and see what it has to say.

[Bravus]

They do quote Micah, in Matthew. This is the only gospel where the 3 wise men are mentioned. No Daniel.

[ClubV12]

I believe they did indeed study "things other than the Bible - occult and mystical texts from their own traditions - ". Throw some chemisty in there as well. But not ALL of them were "bad", and that is the key. Even in Daniels time some were "bad guys", some not so much, some were quite religious. ALL of them (as a people) were very smart learned men however. The Magi (King Makers) were the attorneys, the scribes, the leaders of society, they had great wealth, the were the consultants to kings and superb astronomers. They knew the heavens and the stars well. THIS is not a group to be taken lightly!

And they weren't "three" of them, more likely 300 hundred, in a BIG caravan with soldiers for gaurds on this 800-1,000 mile journey to Bethlehem to see the "new born king."

They were certainly aware of Balaam's prophecy and there is little doubt they had the writings of Daniel as well. Thats what these guys did, collect manuscripts, scrolls, books, papers, etc. for their libraries.

[Bravus]

That's right, sorry - the '3' is another little bit of tradition.

[ClubV12]

Well I figured most everyone knows there really were more than three, but, yeah, it's a deeply ingrained tradition I slip back into on occasion myself! :)

[cardw]

There is no evidence of Jesus other than what is contained in the gospels and other New Testament writings. You would think there would be some contemporary mention of Jesus in the historians of the day.

When we find the few references fictitiously assigned to Josephus we find a clumsy interpolation by a much later scribe. It was obvious, even to the early church, that evidence for the life of Jesus was almost non-existent. You had a rash of writing assigned to famous characters in the Jesus myth designed to provide solutions to theological disagreements which eventually became the gospels.

In reference to the Magi, these would be the astrological three stars in the belt of orion often called the 3 Magi.

Quote:

"Osiris's coming was announced by Three Wise Men: the three stars Mintaka, Anilam, and Alnitak in the belt of Orion, which point directly to Osiris's star in the east, Sirius (Sothis), significator of his birth."

Barbara Walker, The Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets (749)

"So this was the harbinger of the annual inundation of the Nile through her appearance with the rising sun at the time when the inundation was due to begin. The bright star would therefore naturally become, together with the conjoined constellation of Orion, the sign and symbol of new vegetation which the Year then beginning would infallibly bring with it."

Dr. John Gwyn Griffiths, The Origins of Osiris and His Cult (157)

And quoting D.M. Murdock she states...

Quote:

Much has been made of the gospel account of the "star in the east" followed by "wise men" from afar, claimed to have heralded the birth of the newborn savior of the world. Over the centuries, various supposedly scientific theories have been put forth concerning this purported phenomenon that turn out to be all for naught, because this theme reveals itself to be an old mythical motif. In actuality, many ancient gods, kings and heroes were said to have been born under a "bright star" or some other sort of celestial sign, indicating their greatness and role as "savior" as well. Despite protests to the contrary, this heavenly theme is obviously astrological and astrotheological in nature, dating back centuries to millennia prior to the common era. Indeed, like so many other religious and mythological correspondences, the "bright star" and the "three kings" represent motifs that long predate Christianity and are found within Egyptian religion, symbolizing the star Sirius as well as those of the constellation called Orion, along with their relationship to the Egyptian deities Osiris, Isis and Horus.

And further on...

Quote:

The coming of Osiris - the savior of Egypt - was associated with the "Star in the East" because the Egyptians recognized that the rising of Sirius with the sun, or "heliacally," occurred around the summer solstice, the time of the Nile flooding. Life along the Nile was highly dependent upon the inundation associated with the heliacal rising of Sirius, a flood deified as Osiris, who was said to be "born" at that time.

Thus, this important association of Sirius - "Sothis" in the Greek and "Sepdet" or "Sopdet" in the Egyptian - with the life-giving Nile flood began some 5,000 to 6,000 years ago. Hence, the "Star in the East" heralded the birth of the Egyptian Messiah thousands of years before the Christian era. This annual birth of Osiris was also a resurrection, as the goddess Sopdet "woke him from the dead."

Regarding the role of Sirius/Sothis in Egyptian mythology, in The Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts, Dr. James P. Allen states:

Sothis (spdt "Sharp"). The morning star, Sirius, seen by the Egyptians as a goddess. In Egypt the star disappears below the horizon once a year for a period of some seventy days; its reappearance in midsummer marked the beginning of the annual inundation and the Egyptian year. The star's rising was also seen as a harbinger of the sunrise and therefore associated with Horus in his solar aspect, occasionally specified as Horus in Sothis (hrw jmj spdt), Sothic Horus (hrw spdtj), or Sharp Horus (hrw spd).

Thus, sometime around the middle of April, Sirius could no longer be seen on the horizon, until its reemergence at the summer solstice, starting a new cycle. Sirius is identified with Isis: "Sirius, the herald of flooding of the Nile, was the star of the goddess Isis, consort to the great god Osiris, who was represented by the constellation of Orion."

In addition, Pyramid Text 593:1636b/M 206 states: "Horus the pointed has come forth from thee, in his name of 'Horus who was in Sothis.'" "Horus in Sothis," therefore, refers to when the sun rises with Sirius. Thus, in ancient texts we find the birth of Horus the sun associated with the star in the east.

Egyptologist Dr. J. Gwyn Griffiths concurs that "the inundation of the Nile was often connected by the Egyptians with the heliacal rising of the star Sothis (the Dog Star, Sirius), seen in the constellation of Orion." To summarize, the three wise men serve as pointers for the star in the east, which in turn announces the savior of Egypt.

When you read the early church fathers they make no difference between Jesus as the son of god and Jesus as the sun. In fact they refer to Jesus as the sol or sun of god.

Remember the earliest Christian writings by the gnostics didn't consider Jesus or Christ as coming in the flesh, but coming in spirit only. It was the later orthodox theologians that created a literal physical Christ and chose or created writings to support that view. They didn't understand the mystics and created a simplified belief system based on authority and violence.

What most Christians believe today has no basis in fact or history. The emotional investment into the Christ myth is so profound that to abandon it would be to find oneself in a place of great difficulty.

It is true that it would be very difficult to derive meaning and hope from life since a Christian so profoundly bases their hope on a future reward of eternal life. If you remove this, there is no system of thought that provides meaning readily apparent.

Believe me I understand that dilemma. It has taken me years to find a way to navigate in a much wider unknown than what I realized was there. It is not a journey for the faint of heart.

If you want to know what it's like to have your ego crushed, try awakening to the fact that what you believed all your life was based on a lie. If one ever needed discernment, it is and has been through that difficult time.

[ClubV12]

Whew,,, that's some wierd stuff right there cardw, my head was spinning trying to keep up with that fairy tale.

I'll take Ellen White for a $100. And the answer is:

The "star" the Magi saw was a distant company of angels. As the Magi's caravan followed this distant company of angels (which they surmised was a star) they studied the prophesies and encouraged one another during the long journey. The OT has much information on the coming of the Messiah. Adam and Eve were the first to wonder if He would come in their lifetime.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Antiquities 20.9.1 But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.

It would be very interesting to know the exact date of the burning of the Library at Alexandria.

[BobRyan]

There is no evidence of Jesus other than what is contained in the gospels and other New Testament writings. You would think there would be some contemporary mention of Jesus in the historians of the day.

When we find the few references fictitiously assigned to Josephus we find a clumsy interpolation by a much later scribe. .

[BobRyan]

I think I already posted this - but just in case --

Daniel was written in the 6th century B.C and predicts events out to the 18th century A.D at the very least when you consider the fall of the pagan Roman empire and the dark ages.

In addition it predicts a 4 empire sequence that is more than a little noteworthy for access to supernatural knowledge of the future.

Please read "Symposium on Daniel" - Daniel & Revelation Committee Series Vol 2, edited by Frank Holbrook with contributions from scholars like Shea, Neils Andreasen, Schwantes, Gerhard Hasel, A. Rodriguez and Arthur Ferch ... all of whom are well versed in both Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.

Sections of Daniel are in Hebrew and other sections in Aramaic.

Arguments of the form "possibly coulda" and "most likely" are easily debunked in this case because Greek influence on the Near East before the time of Alexandar is irrefutable. (ibid p 129) hence some of the "names" of a few musical instruments in the book of Daniel.

The 490 year timeline given in Daniel 9 just-so-happens to exactly pin point the baptism of the Messiah and his subsequent ministry in 27 A.D.

The 1260 year timeline of Dan 7 just-so-happens to fit the persecution of the saints in the dark ages following the fall of the 4th empire from Babylon (which all historians know as pagan Rome).

Impossible for the objective unbiased reader to simply ignore.

in Christ,

Bob

[LifeHiscost]

Impossible for the objective, unbiased reader to simply ignore.

in Christ,

Bob

I think the key words are the bold emphasized.

God blesses!