Jesus was not tempted as we

[Woody]

When we sin ... and we do sin ...

We are often tempted to not repent.

Jesus did not sin. So he was not tempted to resist repentence.

Christ did not overcome sin because he did not sin.

He does not know what it is to sin.

Sin causes so much heart ache.

Sin affects you ability to stop sinning.

Did Christ have an unfair advantage? This is what we will study for eternity. We will have to judge if Jesus was a fair substitute. Might as well get a head start.

[Gary K]

Woody,

Are you putting forth a hypothesis for discussion, or is that what you actually believe?

[Woody]

just askin'

[miz3]

It really does not matter whether Christ had an unfair advantage.

The key item for us as humans is, God gives us victory over our own sin, regardless of whether or not Jesus Christ had or had not an advantage over us.

If Christ had an advantage changes nothing about our position as humans to sin. We flat are sin and sinful. That is just the fact!

What is also fact, is that God supplies the power and the abilities to us so that we can overcome sin. Thus, regardless of Christ's "advantage" we have no excuse!

[Woody]

Quote:

Thus, regardless of Christ's "advantage" we have no excuse!

I SIN. So now that you say I have no excuse - well - I am without excuse. So where do I go from here. To bed since I am so condemned? :(

[Tom Wetmore]

So what if he had an unfair advantage. He is God. He makes the rules. He mapped out the rescue plan. He came to save the lost. He did it according to His good plan. Are we now going to second guess whether our salvation was a fair save?

It would be rather like arguing with the lifeguard as he dragged you out of the water from a certain death by drowning. "Well wait a minute, you had an unfair advantage in the water because you weren't also drowning just like me. And you are a better swimmer and really don't quite understand what you are doing because you have never sucked water into your lungs and had to be revived. I demand a redo. And this time send me a guy that can't swim with a cinderblock tied to his ankle. I will only trust a rescue by someone my equal."

[Woody]

So what if he had an unfair advantage. He is God. He makes the rules. He mapped out the rescue plan. He came to save the lost. He did it according to His good plan. Are we now going to second guess whether our salvation was a fair save?

It would be rather like arguing with the lifeguard as he dragged you out of the water from a certain death by drowning. "Well wait a minute, you had an unfair advantage in the water because you weren't also drowning just like me. And you are a better swimmer and really don't quite understand what you are doing because you have never sucked water into your lungs and had to be revived. I demand a redo. And this time send me a guy that can't swim with a cinderblock tied to his ankle. I will only trust a rescue by someone my equal."

lol good one Tom

[Sonny]

So what if he had an unfair advantage. He is God. He makes the rules.

Unlike our lawmakers God is not above His own law. He isn't a hypocrite. God can't sin...it's impossible. And Jesus did not have the advantage. In fact He was more disadvantaged then any of us.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

So what if he had an unfair advantage. He is God. He makes the rules.

Unlike our lawmakers God is not above His own law. He isn't a hypocrite. God can't sin...it's impossible. And Jesus did not have the advantage. In fact He was more disadvantaged then any of us.

John 5:19 NAS Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing ; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:30 NAS "I can do nothing on My own initiative".

Jesus, as one of us, was completely dependent upon His Father. He was fully surrendered even though He had our bent-to-self in His humanity.

It's true that Jesus never experienced what it means to be a slave of sin, but He did experience the pull of our love of self - i.e., our bent-to-self.

[Gary K]

So what if he had an unfair advantage. He is God. He makes the rules. He mapped out the rescue plan. He came to save the lost. He did it according to His good plan. Are we now going to second guess whether our salvation was a fair save?

It would be rather like arguing with the lifeguard as he dragged you out of the water from a certain death by drowning. "Well wait a minute, you had an unfair advantage in the water because you weren't also drowning just like me. And you are a better swimmer and really don't quite understand what you are doing because you have never sucked water into your lungs and had to be revived. I demand a redo. And this time send me a guy that can't swim with a cinderblock tied to his ankle. I will only trust a rescue by someone my equal."

If God is arbitrary, He is not who He says He is. He is a liar. I say that is very relevant. It goes to the matter of whether or not God is trustworthy.

[Sonny]

Jesus did not have the advantage. In fact He was more disadvantaged then any of us.

When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection.

Do you know what the Father did on the cross? Christ cried out: “Father, Father why have you forsaken me?” What He meant is not “Why are you leaving me for three days?” but, “Why have You abandoned Me?” Do you know what that meant to Christ? It meant that the hope of the resurrection went with that abandonment. When the Father forsook Him in terms of Christ’s feeling, then the hope of the resurrection went with it. Jesus was now “treading the winepress alone.” He could no longer look on the Father with hope and assurance as far as His feelings were concerned. He felt the agony of God-abandonment, exactly what the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads with the guilty race.

Here is a key passage from Desire of Ages, by E.G. White, p 753: “He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him the coming forth from the grave a conqueror or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that their separation was to be eternal.” Do you realize what Christ was tempted to do on the cross as He hung there? The Father had forsaken Him. But remember, He was still God. He could have taken hold of His divinity independent of the Father, against the Father’s wishes, and come down from the cross to save Himself.

That is exactly what the devil tried to get Him to do. In Luke 23:35-39, at least three times the devil approached Christ—once through the Roman soldiers, once through the priests, and once through the thief on the left-hand side. Then, in Matt. 27:35-46, the people also added to that temptation. The temptation was the same, “Come down from the cross and save yourself.” Can you imagine what that temptation was like? We can’t. I’m glad Desire of Ages makes that clear: “The temptation that Christ experienced can never be fully understood by men.... The withdrawal of the Divine Countenance from the Savior in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.” Ibid.

Do you know why? Because there has been no human being in this world who has really, fully, experienced the wrath of God as Christ did. He is the only man who has experienced the fullness of God-abandonment, which is the equivalent of the second death. Christ was tempted to come down from the cross and save Himself. Can you understand the temptation? The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life. That was the issue. That is the curse of God.

As He hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape.

[Woody]

[Tom Wetmore]

...John 5:19 NAS Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner...

You say he had no advantage. Do you see what the Father is doing?

That would seem to be a huge advantage.

[Tom Wetmore]

Ah yes, the last temptation of Christ... You don't suppose that it was that DA quote that inspired the greatly misunderstood and much maligned movie by that name?

[Sonny]

You say he had no advantage. Do you see what the Father is doing?

Christ is submitting to the Father's will. You too can do this, right?

[Sonny]

Ah yes, the last temptation of Christ...

Christ was tempted all His life; far more than you'll ever be tempted....And on top of all this He never sinned, not even by a thought.

[miz3]

So what if he had an unfair advantage. He is God. He makes the rules. He mapped out the rescue plan. He came to save the lost. He did it according to His good plan. Are we now going to second guess whether our salvation was a fair save?

It would be rather like arguing with the lifeguard as he dragged you out of the water from a certain death by drowning. "Well wait a minute, you had an unfair advantage in the water because you weren't also drowning just like me. And you are a better swimmer and really don't quite understand what you are doing because you have never sucked water into your lungs and had to be revived. I demand a redo. And this time send me a guy that can't swim with a cinderblock tied to his ankle. I will only trust a rescue by someone my equal."

You nailed it here!

[miz3]

Unlike our lawmakers God is not above His own law. He isn't a hypocrite. God can't sin...it's impossible. And Jesus did not have the advantage. In fact He was more disadvantaged then any of us.

Are you saying that the Law is above God? I know you said that God is not above His Law.

If the Law is above God then God is not God, the Law would be the eternal god. Maybe bad logic on your part.

If the Law is coequal with God then the Law is also God.

The question is, did God "make" the Law or has the Law always been an eternal coequal with God?

Does the Law exist apart from God and God saw it says I will be like that and make everything I make subject to that eternal entity, the law?

[Tom Wetmore]

I have also asked it this way:

Which is more important to God, the law or people?

Which is more important to God, life or the law?

[CoAspen]

I have also asked it this way:

Which is more important to God, the law or people?

Which is more important to God, life or the law?

Life and people......otherwise no plan to save them!!!!

(only humans value the law more...I think...they spend a lot of time talking and dissecting it....)

[Gustave]

More Arianism' date=' in fact blatant.

Originally Posted By: Sonny

When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

When "GOD" became man He didn't cease being "GOD" for a second...

...What you've just described is the "creatureISM" of the [/b']Pioneers.

...Jesus KNEW exactly when Lazarus had died ( John 11:14 ).

...And a whole host of other things moral man could NOT know.

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent.

God was in Jesus JUST like Jesus was "IN" God...

...The Three are ONE.

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection.

Was Lucifer "God dependent" prior to his expulsion from heaven?

...Is any ONE of the countless 'archangels' God independent now?

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Do you know what the Father did on the cross? Christ cried out: “Father, Father why have you forsaken me?” What He meant is not “Why are you leaving me for three days?” but, “Why have You abandoned Me?” Do you know what that meant to Christ? It meant that the hope of the resurrection went with that abandonment. When the Father forsook Him in terms of Christ’s feeling, then the hope of the resurrection went with it. Jesus was now “treading the winepress alone.” He could no longer look on the Father with hope and assurance as far as His feelings were concerned. He felt the agony of God-abandonment, exactly what the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads with the guilty race.

Jesus was QUOTING the 22nd Psalm and in shape He was in on the cross...

...It's a miracle He was even able to get that much out!

...That Scripture ends;

"A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this".

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Here is a key passage from Desire of Ages, by E.G. White, p 753: “He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him the coming forth from the grave a conqueror or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that their separation was to be eternal.” Do you realize what Christ was tempted to do on the cross as He hung there? The Father had forsaken Him. But remember, He was still God. He could have taken hold of His divinity independent of the Father, against the Father’s wishes, and come down from the cross to save Himself.

That is exactly what the devil tried to get Him to do. In Luke 23:35-39, at least three times the devil approached Christ—once through the Roman soldiers, once through the priests, and once through the thief on the left-hand side. Then, in Matt. 27:35-46, the people also added to that temptation. The temptation was the same, “Come down from the cross and save yourself.” Can you imagine what that temptation was like? We can’t. I’m glad Desire of Ages makes that clear: “The temptation that Christ experienced can never be fully understood by men.... The withdrawal of the Divine Countenance from the Savior in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.” Ibid.

Now that's disturbing.

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Do you know why? Because there has been no human being in this world who has really, fully, experienced the wrath of God as Christ did. He is the only man who has experienced the fullness of God-abandonment, which is the equivalent of the second death. Christ was tempted to come down from the cross and save Himself. Can you understand the temptation? The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life. That was the issue. That is the curse of God.

It's statements such as these that makes it easy to know that most SDA's reject the Trinity...

...How about some more participation in the other threads Sonny.

...The ones dealing with the teaching of a mutation capable Christ.